PAO v. AEK

[cyberfish]

I am sorry, if this penalty is not called, i don't know why they should have the rule in the books.

It's unbelievable. I am not saying the refs have a mandate (although I am beginning to suspect something is up now) but they don't seem to call them like they should. There is no referee discression in such cases like Roukavinas. It shoudl be an automatic penalty call.

With Gagatsis gone it will take a year because what he has in place is still intact, but we'll see the difference next year. For those who don't know, besides keeping EPO independent from politics, Gagatsis fought tooth and nail to keep control of the referees.

Compare now this penalty today with the one they gave to Olympiakos two games ago on Dudu, and tell me the referees don't have a big role in who's winning the championships.

[Clover22]

Which is exactly why I don't take this league seriously anymore! It's the "Olympiakos purchased" league. As long as we finish in the top 3 and see European action, then thats what really matters. Seriously, enough of this sh it already. A shame but thats the reality.

[cyberfish]

Sure Ten Cate's starters (Mantzios-Gabriel) didn't play well, sure Gilberto had his worst game of the season, sure we wasted an entire half playing with no urgency, but we could have won this one if the ref had done the right thing to call the penalty on Roukavina.

So now I am mad at Gilberto who missed the easiest sitter he will ever get, I am mad at Ten Cate for putting Melissis in for Goumas, I am mad at Antoniou for leaving the team with a player like Melissis on our bench, and I am mad at the Greek referees who are denying us even the most blatant of penalties.

We only showed up in the last half hour and we are lucky AEK did not steal this game in one of Kyriakos' three headers. Why would our players take a whole half off in such games is beyond me.

There were way too many players out of form today, but we should still have won. I watch the Olympiakos games too and their game is horrible, but one way or another they win, and they get the right calls from the refs. Why can't we get a call? Not one that we don't deserve, just the blatant ones.

Galinovic was ok and was never really tested for one more game.

Vintra was good throughout in both positions he played. He was good down the right and he held his own in the center, even though the entire defense was way out of shape for half hour after Goumas left.

Sariegi had a good game and Spyropoulos was not bad either even though I expect much more offensive contributions from him.

Simao was our best player and held the entire midfield by himself today. Give the guy a higher contract again.

Gilberto had his worst game as a PAO player. He looked sluggish and missed a goal that a player like him should be scoring with his eyes closed and his shoe laces tied together.

Karagounis played most game on the left and he found no space at all. It did not help that AEK players just dropped him every time he did find some space. But once Roukavina came in and the system was transformed to a 4-3-3, Karagounis moved down the center and had some very good plays and shots.

Salpigidis was really good too. He fought hard and was the only one who posed any danger for AEK. He had a couple good shots and a few crosses that were squandered either by Gilberto of by lucky breaks for AEK.

Mantzios came off an injury and was lost between AEK's CBs. He move way deep to get the ball many times and that left Salpi all alone up front. I am getting set in my opinion that Mantzios can't be the de facto starter of PAO. He has these few brilliant games where he looks "world-class", and then he always follows up by ten lukewarm performances like today. I'd like to see more of Petropoulos and maybe a new CF that can scare opponents into game-planning their defense around him.

Gabriel also came off an injury and could not do anything right. His errant passes gave away possession to AEK many a time.

Melissis was atrocious. Always behind the play, in the wrong position, and with late challenges. I am suprised Bajevic didn't just camp Scocco or Tzibour on his side to win this game. He did improve towards the end a little but I think we've seen the last of him.

Roukavina came in the game and AEK's defense went into Panic mode. Basinas was embarased and was promptly moved to midfield to let Pliatsikas mark him as the RB. Pliatsikas was also embarrassed and was promptly replaced by Georgeas. Georgeas played a few minutes and managed to trip Roukavina in the box. The kid is on fire and should be starting. Why not establish the 4-3-3 formation to make room for Roukavina up front?

Ten Cate has won some games for us, but I think today his moves didn't pan out. Mantzios and Gabriel instead of Tziolis and Petropoulos downgraded our game. Having only Melissis on the bench as a defender and packing three AMs on the bench proved a mistake. If we had Moon or Nilsson on the bench I think we would have been in better shape after Goumas was injured, but Ten Cate send both of them on the VIP box and kept three AMs (maybe from fear that fans will start bitching if he doesn't include one of the beloved AMs (Ninis, Cleyton, Roukavina).

I think we paid for the lack of depth at CB today, even though Vintra did a good job plugging the position. Nilsson or Moon would have been better at RB though. No reason to keep Melissis on the bench if you are not going to trust him to replace an injured CB.

Goumas' injury should be a clue that we need to buy more than one CB this transfer season.

Vassaras is more concerned with being politically correct and keeping his media title of "best ref" in Greece, or he doesn't know the rules, or he is really an AEK fan who found a way to help his team, or he just vowed to get back at PAO for whatever reason.

Vasaras is a horrible ref and out of shape. There was no reason not to call the Roukavina penalty.

[Clover22]

Cyber Mantzios has had more than a few brilliant games this season; he proved that he's the guy we need to start in all the crucial matches. TC foolishly started Gabriel, who delivered nothing. AGAIN. And he could have used Ninis. AGAIN. But thats what I'm expecting, these kinds of decisions. Unless you have direct contact with these people, no point in getting wound up over it. As much as I would love for them to make the best of what they have in front of them!

[cyberfish]

Ha ha I am watching Varouhas right now. It's like comedy :LOL:

To his credit, he said it was a penalty. He said he believes Vassaras didn't see it because he was too far.

If you read my posts here, I noticed at the end of the first half that Vasaras was completely winded and out of shape. It showed in his face and the way he ran.

At the end of the game he didn't have the stamina to follow the play. He was somewhere in the center of the field even though the play took a long time to develop down the left with Roukavina dribbling a couple of players.

Sooooooo, the "best Greek referee" is out of shape but he gets called (and paid) to play a derby. He screws up because he can't run and costs Panathinaikos two points. What gives?

[drakos13]

Sure Ten Cate's starters (Mantzios-Gabriel) didn't play well, sure Gilberto had his worst game of the season, sure we wasted an entire half playing with no urgency, but we could have won this one if the ref had done the right thing to call the penalty on Roukavina.

So now I am mad at Gilberto who missed the easiest sitter he will ever get, I am mad at Ten Cate for putting Melissis in for Goumas, I am mad at Antoniou for leaving the team with a player like Melissis on our bench, and I am mad at the Greek referees who are denying us even the most blatant of penalties.

We only showed up in the last half hour and we are lucky AEK did not steal this game in one of Kyriakos' three headers. Why would our players take a whole half off in such games is beyond me.

There were way too many players out of form today, but we should still have won. I watch the Olympiakos games too and their game is horrible, but one way  or another they win, and they get the right calls from the refs. Why can't we get a call? Not one that we  don't deserve, just the blatant ones.

Galinovic was ok and was never really tested for one more game.

Vintra was good throughout in both positions he played. He was good down the right and he held his own in the center, even though the entire defense was way out of shape for half hour after Goumas left.

Sariegi had a good game and Spyropoulos was not bad either even though I expect much more offensive contributions from him.

Simao was our best player and held the entire midfield by himself today. Give the guy a higher contract again.

Gilberto had his worst game as a PAO player. He looked sluggish and missed a goal that a player like him should be scoring with his eyes closed and his shoe laces tied together.

Karagounis played most game on the left and he found no space at all. It did not help that AEK players just dropped him every time he did find some space. But once Roukavina  came in and the system was transformed to a 4-3-3, Karagounis moved down the center and had some  very good plays and shots.

Salpigidis was really good too. He fought hard and was the only one who posed any danger for AEK. He had a couple good shots and a few crosses that were squandered either by Gilberto of by lucky breaks for AEK.

Mantzios came off an injury and was lost between AEK's CBs. He move way deep to get the ball many times and that left Salpi all alone up front. I am getting set in my opinion that Mantzios can't be the de facto starter of PAO. He has these few brilliant games where he looks "world-class", and then he always follows up by ten lukewarm performances like today. I'd like to see more of Petropoulos  and maybe a new CF that can scare opponents into game-planning their defense around him.

Gabriel also came  off an injury and could not do anything right. His errant passes gave away possession to AEK many a time.

Melissis was atrocious. Always behind the play, in the wrong position, and with late challenges. I am suprised Bajevic didn't just camp Scocco or Tzibour on his side to win this game. He did improve towards the end a little but I think we've seen the last of him.

Roukavina came in the game and AEK's defense went into Panic mode. Basinas was embarased and was promptly moved to midfield to let Pliatsikas mark him as the RB. Pliatsikas was also embarrassed and was promptly replaced by Georgeas. Georgeas played a few minutes and managed to trip Roukavina in the box. The kid is on fire and should be starting. Why not establish the 4-3-3 formation to make room for Roukavina up front?

Ten Cate has won some games for us, but I think today his moves didn't pan out. Mantzios and Gabriel instead of Tziolis and Petropoulos downgraded our game. Having only Melissis on the bench as a defender and packing three AMs on the bench proved a mistake. If we had Moon or Nilsson on the bench I think we would have been in better shape after Goumas was injured, but Ten Cate send both of them on the VIP box and kept three AMs (maybe from fear that fans will start bitching if he doesn't include one of the beloved AMs (Ninis, Cleyton, Roukavina).

I think we paid for the lack of depth at CB today, even though Vintra did a good job plugging the position. Nilsson or Moon would have been better at RB though. No reason to keep Melissis on the bench if you are not going to trust him to replace an injured CB.

Goumas' injury should be a clue that we need to buy more than one CB this transfer season.

Vassaras is more concerned with being politically correct and keeping his media title of "best ref" in Greece, or he doesn't  know the rules, or he is really an AEK fan who found a way to help his team, or he just vowed to get back at PAO for whatever reason.

Vasaras is a horrible ref and out of shape. There was no reason not to call the Roukavina penalty.

Cyber, I am 100% in agreement here.

I have not too much to say on the match Cyberfish didnt express.

I was at the match, it was boring. Nice atmosphere ok sure the match sucked, and Vassaras wouldnt get off his damn whistle, and was favouring AEK, hed call PAO at every minor and even non existant thing, and AEK would throw elbows on a header and it was play on....Come on.

At least we didnt lose, and PAO are still undefeated in my presence.

Gilberto is really the Brazilian team captain? :blink:

I thought PAO first half were lazy and uninspired. Second half was better, but jesus -youd think that when your 0-0 going in to the 87th and desparate to score, youd ask - why the hell wasnt I this desperate/productive/determined EARLIER, when i had 90 MINUTES ahead of me instead to get this done instead of 4??? Point is, when your desperate for 3 points, the struggle to get the goal starts from the very first MINUTE of the game. Not the second half.

Melissis SUCKS. Andoniou get off your ass and do something, seriously. Should be fired - this is a competitive ass job, and when you are given a task in transfers, you not only fail to land the defender in target, you dont get any defender (badly needed), and you get some rubbish from PAOK to put on in the event of emergency. Dont forget Andoniou also brought in Souza who has been bought and sold in 4 months. Tried him out a few games, realized he was a total waste of money sat the bench and nothing more hes gone.

How are multiple groups of people investing in PAO, and not calling for his head? He pissed away millions on a player I HIGHLY doubt he had ever seen play, exceept for maybe agents highlights reels, and we all know those count for jack s%$#!. Seen enough Youtube phenomenon clips to know anybody can have nice plays. hell even I have hit some screamers in practice into the upper corner.

Refeereing is seriously making me less interested in this league. After that phantom penalty OSFP Thrasyvoulos coming in at "just the right momnet" to keep their points on top, really killed a lot of my faith and interest in the league.

I appreciate HTC's bittterness and agree with what he had to say. Its not just one play. This is games with Panathinaikos - sixteen games and one penalty. HTC is not some villager who pins everything of his problems on other people either. The man is correct. He said hes also done on the topic, and that basically hes going to accept that penalties arent going to be given to PAO.

I think UEFA should impose refereeing quality standards for its members. This way its either kick Greek refereeing into shape, or dont allow its league to compete in European competition. Its for the best of Europe, its for the best of Greece.

Another point :

Karagkounis needs to learn to take a corner. He wasted 100% of them.

I am absolutley astonished, that nobody notices this. I have for 2 years since hes been back watched him take the EXACT same corner over and over and over and over -------- and over again. The only thing impressive is the consistency of them. Since he did it under Peseiro too, I'm thinking its not planned out. If I was a defender playing against PAO, I would win practically ALL the headers on the corners coming from Kara's side (his left, my right)

Karagkounis Left Corner approximately 95% of the time :

Direction: Right Footed on Left side = Inwards curving

Height: Low - approximately chest height on most players

Pace (Soft)

Aim: Very Near post

Conversion to chances : NONE

A near post, weak, low corner, does absolutley nothing. The only thing it can ever produce (and rarely, because nobody can ever get to them) is a backwards flick or nod that may lead to the ball going up for grabs near the small box. Thats about it. Kara had a period first half where he did exactly this corner about 4 times in 2 minutes. He tends to kick this corner all the time for PAO. It never does anything.

Finally the corner went to Gabriels side, and we actually got something resembling a chance. In a game where Vassaras or any ref is calling all the time like a crow, set peice takers become VITAL. Kara is good free kicks. Corners, he just cant do anymore.

[cyberfish]

Clover22, I like Mantzios too, but he has to start scoring a bit more. 1 goal in 8 appearances is not good for a PAO starting CF.

Ten Cate said in the interview that Matzios is our best forward in receiving and holding the ball to develop our attack. But he added "he does need to start scoring more".

I know you don't like Ten Cate but he is right when he says that our defense is not the problem (AEK didn't really threaten at all today besides one set ball), our forwards need to convert our chances and they haven't. This needs to be improved.

[adonis]

actually there was another penalty that could of been given in the first half

one of our players - cant rem who i think spyropoulos - was bear hugged by majstrovic in the box during a corner and promptly went down as ball went over

very hard to see by ref but the replay showed that was a clear penalty as well

anyways

to anyone who saw this game....it proves why this current team cannot be a serious contender for silverware

we lack serious killer instinct infront of goal and gilberto should not be the player that makes the final run in the box to shoot in a gerrard, ronaldo, lampard style

we do not have any dekari who can really dribble and create out of nothing

and karagounis is doing his best at the moment but i wonder at his age how long he can keep it up

and also....can anyone confirm this but the commentator said that mantzios has not scored a superleague goal?????????

[cyberfish]

At least we didnt lose, and PAO are still undefeated in my presence.

:nw: :nw: :nw: Maybe Pateras should pay you to sit on our bench :tup:

Karagkounis needs to learn to take a corner. He wasted 100% of them.

I am absolutley astonished, that nobody notices this.

It looks like Basinas noticed.

It was really funny to watch two or three consecutive corners from our left where Karagounis would take it exactly how you described, only to find Basinas' head in the near post who would head it corner again to repeat the cycle. It was funny but also very frustrating. Another 1 mm off my teeth from grinding, although I think a uttered a couple of bad words too :LOL:

[cyberfish]

actually there was another penalty that could of been given in the first half

one of our players - cant rem who i think spyropoulos - was bear hugged by majstrovic in the box during a corner and promptly went down as ball went over

very hard to see by ref but the replay showed that was a clear penalty as well

anyways

to anyone who saw this game....it proves why this current team cannot be a serious contender for silverware

we lack serious killer instinct infront of goal and gilberto should not be the player that makes the final run in the box to shoot in a gerrard, ronaldo, lampard style

we do not have any dekari who can really dribble and create out of nothing

and karagounis is doing his best at the moment but i wonder at his age how long he can keep it up

and also....can anyone confirm this but the commentator said that mantzios has not scored a superleague goal?????????

It was Spyropolos on the Maistorovic shirt pull. But I don't get upset if refs don't see those. Our defenders do this too. It's good CB play.

Mantzios has scored 1 (one) goal in the Superleague to give us the lead in the final 2-2 against Iraklis. He has played 8 games, six of them all 90 minutes, one only for 45, and today for 80.

I think he needs to start scoring more and needs to improve other parts of his game besides receiving and holding the ball when we develop.

His game in the box is very soft. He doesn't have the explosiveness that's needed. Watch in the first shot Salpi took today. The keeper spilled it in the box but Maistorovic beat Mantzios to the ball by a couple of steps. Watch how softly Mantzios attacked the lose ball and it's a good illustration of what I think he needs to improve.

[NYPAO13]

we will get the penalty calls in bunches later in the season when there is no way of a comeback, not that there is much hope now.

[athinaios]

I think bad referrying is bad for the sport, and besides OLY all the teams should demand a reform because everyone is hurt.

There have to be standards. In a given society (ooops, I just realized that the whole Greek society operates like this) if people are to have confidence in the institutions AND obey the rules they have to know that there are standards that apply equally to all.

How can they participate in a leagu when the refs AND the sport courts are biased? We're talking about big money here, from the top finishers (CL, UEFA, etc) to those who are relegated to Div. 2.

As for the game, we wasted 1 half. Rukavina should be a starter. Kara should keep taking foul kicks but not the corners.

If they don't have a clear picture of a Greek player (Melissis) before they sign him up, what the hell are they going to do with someone from far away?

Being -9 means another year gavroi will get the title... and maybe this year they won't need decisions behind closed doors... just a few penalties if necessary. :whistle:

[drakos13]

we will get the penalty calls in bunches later in the season when there is no way of a comeback, not that there is much hope now.

I wouldnt be suprised.

Look - PAO gets penalties all the time they will say...

Just not when they count.

[Euro2004]

The ref was solid in this game guys, stop blaming our plight on him. We couldn't win this game because we didn't have the creative ability to open AEK up. All we did was launch the ball forward. I mean come on, it's obvious Kyrgiakos and Majstorovic will dominate Mantzios and Salpi in that scenario. Yes Gilberto missed 2 big chances but we never looked like winning. The 1st half was pretty even but AEK seemed more dangerous because our backline was less organised than theirs. In the 2nd half AEK were content to play for the draw so we had all the possession and what happend? We couldn't break them down.

Rukavina made a slight difference when he came on and PAO won the central midfield battle but I can't see any other positives. Considering that their centre defenders come from "the land of the giants", why did Mantzios start before being replaced by Petropoulos? It was obvious they'd be dominated by Kyrgiakos. Why didn't Ninis and Cleyton feature? They'd have caused alot more problems! Sorry but this is the first time that I will seriously criticise HTC.

[athinaios]

The ref was OK for most of the game eventhough he was out of shape and couldn't follow closely. But, he blew a huge call for us. 10' before the end he failed to call the penalty that would probably have decided the game.

I'm not saying we didn't have lots of problems, nor that Vassaras was to doom PAO, but not getting the right calls WHEN THEY MATTER is totally unfair and has impacted our standing and morale.

Can you imagine if you're gavros believing that you'll get the benefit from the ref when it matters?... It does give you more confidence and a more relaxed attitude. Then you pile up points and increase the difference from your main challengers, and then....

[dinonet]

There's too much evidence that we never get the 50-50 penalty call. Most penalties we see can go either way but when it's not consistent with all the refs you get such a lopsided number. How many penalties has pao received so far compared to gavros? We should outsource our referees. Do you think England refs would call most of the penalties they get? It's not the only problem with pao by far but these decisions give the refs too much power to influence the game. Sad.

[dinonet]

I wouldnt be suprised.

Look - PAO gets penalties all the time they will say...

Just not when they count.

Don't we have like 1 penalty in the last 16 matches?

[drakos13]

50-50 call for PAO? those are rare!

were lucky to get the 90-10 like yesterday........the only PK we did get was probably in the most blatant penalties of the League's season.

We will get calls-as soon as the race is finishing up. Like NYPAO says, hes right. There is no question, as to the -9 point differential is utter bull**** and undeserved for Gavros. It makes me angry but whatever.

Theyre scraping buy in UEFA and were in the top 16 of UCL taking first in our group.

[dinonet]

Every ref is a joke in this joke league and they want to call it super league. Why do I torture myself every week. Does anyone know of a good therapist?

[NikosVazelas]

Good afternoon fellow phantis members and let me begin by sayin a Happy New year to all and may this upcomign year bring you health happiness and that jazz..

As for the game....

Im dissappointed in our first half. Im dissapointed in Gilberto who didnt come through. Im dissapointed in Melissis of whom i expected much more. Im dissapointed in Mantzios who just seemed one step too slow. Im dissappointed in Gabriel who also seemed a step off even though he was still ok. Im dissappointed in HTC who didnt start Ruka from the beginning, or at least beginnign of 2nd half.

Im not going to mention anything about the refs. i made a huge fuss with our friend CRAZy from the oly forum sayin that olys penalty, although iffy as still called against Thrasyvoulos and how pao never gets those calls. Not that pao played a GREAT game, but one for sure penalty and one questionable could of made a huge differenc eobviously in a 0-0 draw.

so far thats 8 points we didnt get because the refs thought they werent penalties. 8....

[NikosVazelas]

Every ref is a joke in this joke league and they want to call it super league. Why do I torture myself every week. Does anyone know of a good therapist?

Yes its called the Champions League and our next match is on Feb 24th against Villareal.

[MadBoy13]

re paidia, ti kathomaste kai skame??? to protathlima einai grafto kai ftiaxto na paei ston olympiako... teleiose... tha doume next year! ego pleon to peira apofasi...

[dinonet]

re paidia, ti kathomaste kai skame??? to protathlima einai grafto kai ftiaxto na paei ston olympiako... teleiose... tha doume next year! ego pleon to peira apofasi...

Etsi leme kathe xrono. Tou xronou pali kai ta idia. Ti tha allaksi.

[athinaios]

Etsi leme kathe xrono. Tou xronou pali kai ta idia. Ti tha allaksi.

Yeah, year after year nothing is being fixed. And, after a while who can remember what happened? Younger people look at the records and say, ooooh, gavroi have won so many titles!!! :whistle:

Like I said before, it wouldn't matter if decisions on and off the field didn't affect the future & the financials of most clubs. Some go to the CL, UEFA or fall to Div. 2. This is huge.

Besides, I believe this situation is hurting the sport. We may not see it, because, let's face it, we are already part of this sport, but many younger people don't have the same urgency or interest in this sport.

Those of you who live in Greece talk to the older fans (over 35-40) and to your younger friends, and ask them what they think of football...

When I was a teenager, 95% of my friends were fanatics about the sport and about their chosen team... I doubt it's the same today.

[Clover22]

Well I think its about time the fans organize and demand some massive changes to this league; which means getting rid of most of the people who are running it. Otherwise this grand comedy will continue for who knows how long. Again, at this point in time as long as we finish top 2 or 3 so we have European action, thats fine because it IS a joke, and it is glaringly obvious. Cyber 10C started out this season really badly this year and it pissed me off practically beyond reason, but he's made positive changes which is good. That door has to be kept open because people do change their minds (or take suggestions). But there are still things he can do better (I would get in the habit of putting Cleyton in around the 70th for Kara, for instance).