js1000
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Posts posted by js1000
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I asked about your grandparents political beliefs, you could have just said 'no comment' instead of all this guff. I thought it was the only the UK political class that refuse to answer simple questions..
Anyway, I think I have the answer.
please accept my apologies for all the 'guff' i wrote, but your question was so utterly pathetic and pointless it really didn't deserve a response.
I have a question lads, what benefit will there be in declaring bankruptcy and going back to the drachma?From what I understand we're screwed either way right now but keen to know if there is any positive outlook for the future if & when we're to fall out of the Eurozone
Well Greece can't continue on the same path, if they do then creditors will plunder every resource/asset Greece has got and continue to impoverish its people, they have to take the route Iceland took, by declaring bankruptcy and making their own laws without outside interference and having their own currency they can start to grow their economy slowly, short term pain long term gain.
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Js1000 - were your grandparents/ great grandparents communists?
I don't understand your question, just because i empathise with people and am not an apologist for thugs and a corrupt state doesn't make me communist, in fact I'm a 'capitalist', i just wish we actually lived in a capitalist system where private firms didn't get bailed out using public money and small businesses were able to compete on a level playing field with big corporations, who are able to not pay tax, exploit cheap foreign labour and are thus able to undercut small businesses. I also wish the state didn't pass so many laws and statutes and actually left people alone more, we're drowning in EU regulations and red tape.
The EU lean more towards socialism/communism, they've succeeded in bringing the cost of living up in eastern europe and the standard of living down in western europe and are forcing member states to take in migrants who are fleeing from countries we've(the west/EU) destroyed through military intervention and foreign aid programmes that prop up horrific regimes in their own countries.
The job of governments is to provide services for people, not to give tax breaks to their corporate chums, billions in foreign aid and demand cuts in services because of lack of funds. They get away with it because too many people are apologists for the state and always give it the benefit of doubt and turn on each other. We even had a poster on here trying to excuse the thuggery of our leaders but are appalled that Tsiparas was at a demo 15 years ago.
When its reported companies like Pfizer paid an annual corporation tax of around
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i take it that you believe the best path was for greece to default in 2010 and no bail-outs for european banks?yes
JS, there is a fundamental difference when you bring up the Bullingdon Club. After they destroyed the establishments they would pay the bill. This action is significant, because it implies some responsibility. Tsipras was at the G8 as an ideological protester, conforming to the Greek left's views.wow, when they lob flower pots through shop windows and then leave the scene the chances are they didn't pay for the damage, the restaurants they smashed up may have been compensated but what about the women they abused and people they beat up and bragged about after? you seem to be an apologist for these thugs and have no problem with people like that running a country like the UK but are appalled that a man that attended a protest 15 years ago is running little Greece.
And they tell us in the UK anyone can be prime minister, but it seems to help if you come from an elitist background attend private schools and join a dining club that engages in thuggery and vandalism. Yet in Greece a common man has the top job and no one likes it, despite the fact the country was on its knees before he took over. Not that i think it makes any difference who's in charge while we remain in this union and currency.
brilliant.... the lao demands
sorry to badger on about the UK but i live here and i think its a little comparable, the UK 'Lao' demanded cuts in public spending after they were spoon fed the narrative from the government (and slavishly reported by an unquestioning UK media) that public sector workers were overpaid, had gold plated pensions and were overstaffed, these cuts have been implemented over the years. The result - the passport office had a 3 month backlog for passport applications with people moaning they had to cancel their holidays, a report today that the tax office has failed to answer 20% of its phone calls and people saying they'd had to wait on the phone for 40 minutes just to speak to someone, queues at airports because they cut the number of staff working at the UK border, ambulance services cut with stories surfacing of people bleeding to death while waiting for one, cuts at hospitals resulting in massive waiting times and fortnightly(instead of weekly) refuse collections in some areas. The public here were fed rubbish about a bloated public sector with great pensions and they demanded reform, which they got.
The lao demands.
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Greece is not capable of implementing reforms and sticking to them. I don't get why you think Greece can just go back to the drachma and all of a sudden turn it around after 5-10 years when Greek mentality refuses to even reform unlimited free college.
because its their only hope, there is no other option. If they're incapable then they may as well dissolve parliament and let Brussels run Greece.
we also need to realise that we can't be governed by a bunch of coffee sipping Che Guevara inspired pseudo politicians...these guys are a laughing stock
are you alluding to the EU commissioners who have no idea where billions of euros have been spent, refuse to be audited are not elected and think they have the right to tell Greece to implement reforms and how to run their finances or do you mean Tsiparas? they're all 'Pseudo politicians' at least Tsiparas was elected unlike Jean Claude Juncker.
pick your poison
Nice pic of a young Tsiparas with the 1000 other 'Greek radicals' can you imagine a trouble maker like that running a country? it reminds me of pictures of a young David Cameron and Boris Johnson who used to smash up and vandalise hotels and restaurants when they were members of the prestigious bullingdon dining club during their younger days with the delightful George Osborne.
These are the people running the UK so don't be too hard on Tsiparas and his 'radical' ilk.
'An excessive sense of entitlement" was what the mayor of London ascribed to those looting their way across our sceptred isle ? but he could have been referring to himself. In the mid-to-late 80s, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson ? not to mention David Cameron and his now chancellor George Osborne ? were members of the notorious Bullingdon Club, the Oxford university "dining" clique that smashed their way through restaurant crockery, car windscreens and antique violins all over the city of knowledge.http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-boris-johnson
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In November of 2012 Greece beat Ireland 1-0 in a friendly with a relatively young side, at the time i thought the future's bright most of these players play in top leagues and we were flying high in qualifying, how have we slipped so much in such a short time? bad management me thinks.
anyway this was the line up that night.
Karnezis - Torosidis Papastathopoulos Papadopoulos Stafylidis - Ninis Tachtsidis Tziolis Holebas - Samaras Mitroglou
A very good 11, Ninis has regressed and Samaris would replace Tziolis nowadays but at the time i thought we'd be a force for years to come.
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we need to accept the fact that we DO NOT COLLECT enough tax to pay our own bills.....the size if the debt is irrelevant..How can you say the size of the debt is irrelevant ? you can cut pensions all together triple VAT reform the tax system where everyone pays their fair share and still the debt is not manageable, once you default and issue your own currency then you implement reforms to run the country efficiently.
lets assume you got all the desirable reforms you wanted, and big companies invested in Greece and created jobs, Greece would still be getting handouts 90% of which would go to existing creditors and the result would be even more debt and interest and even more asset sales/privatisation until we've got nothing left to sell.
the point I'm making is its too late for reforms and efficiency, the time for an overhaul of the Greek system can only happen after default and issuing their own currency, if it means being like Serbia in the short term then so be it because if Greece carries on like this then every asset they have will be owned by foreign companies/creditors.
- greece and iceland are oil and water. greece's problem is the state had/has no money to pay it's debt. iceland's problem was private icelandic banks and the icelandic govt. decided not to bail them out.The point is had they bailed them out(like the rest of Europe did) instead of prosecuting them then they would also be in debt, would that have been more desirable? or maybe you prefer the Cyprus method of banks helping themselves to peoples savings, and Cyprus is still in debt, or the US method of the fed putting the state into debt by giving obscene amounts of money to their wall street chums and when Bernie Sanders asks who got the money Ben Bernanke refuses to disclose it, result: huge debt in the US, which you're picking up the tab for.
Iceland also implemented reforms to make them more efficient(VAT hike, tax on sugary products etc) but only after they allowed their banks to fail.
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Politicians stealing 100-200 million is wrong, but this theft has not brought Greece to bankruptcy...
there's a false belief that they stole the money therefore I do not get my pension at 47 and now I need to pay more VAT....WRONG
dude, the peanuts they pocketed isn't the problem, they pocketed the money in exchange for taking huge loans in order to buy military equipment that we didn't need, these loans along with the extortionate interest they bought along is what went someway to ruining the country, any reform now is meaningless 90% of all bailout money is gonna go straight back out to pay creditors so any reforms pensions cuts etc will only go towards the 10% of the bailout money that remains in Greece, i prefer to focus on the 90% because any reforms that are made now are meaningless, its too late for that the debt cannot be paid EVER it will increase with all the interest regardless of any reform.
i read the mail yesterday talking about 'gold plated pensions' trying to wind up the British by hinting their taxes were paying Greek pensioners and all i could think of was the 77 year old Greek pensioner who worked all his life as a pharmacist and shot himself in the head at a protest leaving a suicide note saying he didn't want to spend his life rummaging through bins to feed himself, i'm not sure how generous his pension was.
just take 3 minutes of your time and listen to the president of Iceland, this is what Greece (and other countries) need to do otherwise any reform is meaningless, this has to happen first followed by reform, if it doesn't then Greece will NEVER recover regardless of any cuts or reform, its simply not possible.
Iceland also allowed bankers to be prosecuted as criminals ? in contrast to the US and Europe, where banks were fined, but chief executives escaped punishment.
"Why should we have a part of our society that is not being policed or without responsibility?" said special prosecutor Olafur Hauksson at the time. "It is dangerous that someone is too big to investigate - it gives a sense there is a safe haven." -
but you're also focusing on one demographic, besides here's an article in todays dailymail which will resonate with your point of view, it basically says how wonderful northern europe is and how horrid Greeks are
It was ridiculous to create a common currency in the absence of a common system of government. It was madness to join together a clutch of northern nations that pay taxes, respect agreements and are reasonably uncorrupt with such countries as Italy, Spain and, above all, Greece, where honest men inspire derision.also
Suddenly, the 20 per cent of the workforce employed by the state found themselves enjoying soaring wages and gold-plated pensions. The payment of taxes, never a Greek custom, was abolished. Scarcely a voter in the land went unbribed. Greek ministers told their creditors loftily: ?Send the bill to Berlin.?love it, blame the people laud how wonderful other non corrupt nordic nations are and paint the Greeks as lazy non tax paying scum.
Yet the Greeks do not even pretend they are willing to change their ways.
With less finesse than the average highwayman, they are demanding a debt amnesty and another hand-out.
link to full article below, this could have been written by one of many posters on here. the western media narrative
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@JS1000
The point is that regardless of what happens we need major reform....
it's ridiculous as to the difficulties one encounters to start a business or to invest.....Institutions that masquerade for Unions like P.A.M.E are a cancer....
The whole education system is controlled by lunatic lefties....people living in a 1970s university essay...
'protection' for closed industries for the mere purpose of survival tied up in incomprehensible legislation...that refer to the constitution....written by 19th century legislators...... total absurdity...
a collective that truly believes in meaningless non existent public service jobs, created to support a failed crumbling system..
no accountability, no responsibility....
If the entire debt was written off tomorrow we would be in the same boat in 15 years...
there is no political will to improve...focusing on corrupt politicians is diversion from real issues..
That's partly true, however if you stopped pension payments completely doubled VAT and collected more taxes the debt would still be unpayable, its too late for reform now with this much debt, Greece needs to leave the union and single currency otherwise any 'reforms' made will never be enough.
Tsiparas is a sell out he'll concede to what ever he's told to
there is no political will to improve...focusing on corrupt politicians is diversion from real issues..I really don't understand this point of view, why do you give the big boys a free pass, they are the ones that make the laws and decisions and they are the ones who've done most to put the country in debt in order to feather their own nests. I've listed in previous posts some of their appalling behaviour but no one seems to mind.
anti austerity march
another good article
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the usa can't afford citizens in the work force for 25-30 years working AND actually paying taxes for those 25-30 years and then collecting a govt check (social security) for 40 years after retirement.
The pentagon has since 1996 lost - just shrugged their shoulders when asked - $8.5trillion, this does not account for their total expenditure during this period, just what is unaccounted for, the USA can also afford very generous foreign aid for countries like Egypt and Israel, and they still found enough to hand the bankers pretty much what they wanted after the crash, meanwhile Detroit is in a worse state than Greece and you wonder why they want to cut people's pensions.
they bought our bonds, like everyone else's bonds...and it's obvious that central banks can't win, either way.Can't win? they can't lose they should be allowed to fail instead of being propped up by states in exchange for 'austerity', isn't that what capitalism is all about?
in today's world, i don't know of too many nations that run an actual surplus (say an oil-rich emirate like brunei or even germany, this year i believe).
the result is that nations needs to sell debt to pay for things, otherwise standards of living would regress significantly - cut, cut and more cuts, to balance every nation's budget.
This is where we disagree, I believe corruption and incompetence is the cause of debt, i.e. the pentagon losing trillions, foreign aid programmes, the fed refusing to disclose where bailout money went, remember good old Ben Bernanke refusing to answer questions about it to congress, unlimited amount for wars, no one seems to question where we always find the money for that.
you on the other hand(and all posters on here) point to people having too high a standard of living as the cause.
Some people just don't get it. Greece has to borrow money to survive. Not because of the banks, but because they spend way more money than they bring in. Again, some people can't get their fingers wrapped around the fact that Greeks have been major tax evaders for decades, not since the start of the Euro. I remember being there in 2005 and the arrogance of Greeks and they were all living the life. Unfortunately, that life was a mirage on borrowed funds.A defence minister is caught taking bungs, in exchange for these bungs he borrows money from German banks that Greece can't pay back at high interest rates in order to buy german military equipment that we didn't need, we know the corruption with the finance minister and goldman, these are just examples we know about imagine the wastage we're unaware of, yet you point the finger at your brethren living the life as the sole cause, you seem to be cherishing their misery.
The US banks went tits up by lending money to hobo's to purchase property, do you blame the hobo's for taking the money and defaulting or the banks that approved these mortgages for a quick buck? the hobo's for a while lived beyond their means, did the banks who acted in this way deserve to be bailed by working people like your good self and aek66 who in no way caused the crisis ? should you be asked for more tax a worse pension etc etc just to save these so called 'to big to fail'? those 4 words prove we don't have capitalist system.
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The misinformation by the leftists who may either be doing it intentionally or are not educated. Using the banks as the bogeyman is completely laughable because if the banks didn't loan money to Greece, then the country would have defaulted 10 years ago. The money from the banks was given to Greece to sustain the unsustainable Greek lifestyle of early retirements, no taxes, free health care etc... It all came crashing down when the bills were due. Now its the banks fault. But hey, Syriza and the Unions need an enemy and they aren't going to admit its themselves so point the finger at the banks.
So the banks did Greece a favour did they? which banks in particular, was it goldman who cooked the books took consultancy fees and ran off betting on Greece to fail?
If the banks knew it was 'unsustainable' the super high standard of living the bloated public sector etc etc why did they lend, was it for the love of Greece was it to help Greek people or was it to collect obscene amounts of interest from the Greek state safe in the knowledge that if Greece defaulted they'd be bailed out with more loans and more interest to service existing debt, followed by privatisation and the transfer of Greek assets to creditors.
I like your language Gyros, anyone who questions the conduct of the banks is an 'uneducated leftist' who's spreading 'misinformation'
this is the super-foustanella narrative. the banks destroyed greece?
the banks bought greek bonds (much better rates for greece with euro compared to dpx.) for nearly a decade and the greek govt. used that money to finance early and generous retirements and bloat state jobs and to thank the greek govt., everyone else decided to avoid paying taxes and used the ministries as personal atm machines and wedges to extort bribes.
no one minded the store.
we all knew that the majority of tax payer monies from eu states (later, included imf) would go right back to national banks which purchased the now, super distressed greek bond
Are the banks blameless? their solution to the Greek debt is.... more debt, because they know they can't lose, no one forced these private banks to buy Greek bonds, and you blame the government(which wasn't SYRIZA) on blowing it on 'bloated public sector' 'early generous retirements' and general people not paying tax(in the UK only the super rich/corporations avoid paying tax but no one minds) yet you neglect to mention interest payments, i'm not saying the government was blameless but neither are the banks, seems people get touchy when you mention the conduct of the banks, banding about statements like super-fustanella narrative.
If you ran a successful small business in Greece and saw most of the states money going to pay foreign creditors would you be doing your best to pay as little tax as possible ? be honest.
like the big boys do in the UK, pfizer google starbuck amazon npower vodafone to name a few.
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? Privatization. Here?s an easy source of considerable cash that would enormously lighten the pressure on your budget. Prior governments have dragged their feet and have even been unwilling to complete a census of what the government actually owns and how many people work for these entities. This is irresponsible in the extreme. And your government has drastically scaled back what its predecessors were reluctantly going to do.
In 2011 I attended a conference in Athens, the purpose of which was to discuss Greece?s economic future. Among those attending were officials from Poland who had conducted numerous sales of government assets and companies, which totaled in the billions of euros. With exasperation these officials noted that George Papandreou?s government wouldn?t even meet with them to discuss the lessons Poland had learned about the right way to privatize. Your creditors can rightfully claim that continuing to bail you out when you refuse to vigorously pursue such an obvious course of reform is ridiculous.
Like the sell off in 2013 of 28 public buildings to foreign companies at a knock down price which the Greek state is now renting back at an extortionate cost. nice one MR Forbes.
we have said it many times.....Tsipra and Syriza have no plan for jobs or growth...they are fundamentally opposed to investment and capital...
they live in 1970s university essay.
Do you prefer the EUs plan for growth? how do you grow an economy by cutting everything, when people have less they spend less which has a knock on effect in private business.
Greek capitalists exist!! 10,000 came out today in the name of a normal society. Immediately 150 far left anarchist marched on the EU offices not far away in protest at this protest.the problem isn't capitalism but the banking racket, if you call bailing out banks and asking the people to pay 'normal' then we have a different idea as to what is normal, the reason the protestors came out is that they have savings which they don't want to see devalued by leaving the euro, a little self interest, even if it means the country continues to be run to the ground. remember opposing the banks does not mean opposing capitalism, but we don't have capitalism if state funds are used to bail out failed private businesses(banks). socialising debts, privatising profits.
growth can only come by leaving this pathetic corrupt unaudited union.
since the above article was written debt to GDP in Greece has risen to 174%
This was never said officially before! ?They gave money to save German and French banks, not Greece,? Paolo Batista, one of the Executive Directors of International Monetary Fund told Greek private Alpha TV on Tuesday. Batista strongly criticized not only the euro zone and the European Central Bank but also the IMF and the Fund?s managing Director Christine Lagarde for defending Europe much too much..?London-based pressure group Jubilee Debt Campaign, which has studied the fate of heavily indebted countries around the world, says Greece is right to demand a more generous approach from its creditors, because although it has received an extraordinary ?252bn in bailouts since 2010, just 10% of that has found its way into public spending.
Much of the rest poured straight back out of the country: in debt repayments and interest to its creditors, many of them banks and hedge funds in the core eurozone countries, including Germany and France; and in sweeteners to persuade lenders to sign up to the 2012 bond restructuring that helped prevent the country crashing out of the euro.
In effect, the ?troika? of the European Central Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the European commission has simply replaced the banks and the hedge funds as Greece?s paymasters. The country?s overall debt burden has actually increased in the almost five years since it was first ?rescued?, and of the amount still outstanding, 78% is now owed to public sector institutions, primarily the EU.
so of 252bn received by Greece 90% goes straight out the country to prop up foreign banks, yet posters on here want to blame the greek 'mentality' or SYRIZA or the unions or 10 year degrees for all of greece's woes and neglect to look at the real culprits, its a shame you have greek people who are apologists for the very banks that destroyed them.
I've heard it said on here the government doesn't owe people a living which is true but by the same token the people don't owe foreign banks a living. 10% of bailout money stayed in Greece and for that they've squeezed the people until the pips squeaked. We've seen the state of the hospitals and people suffering yet some people want more of the same, thankfully its only a small number of Greeks who are pro EU.
you cannot pay debts(especially with obscene interest added on) unless you create wealth and you cannot create wealth by cutting everything, besides its obvious its unpayable.
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The people that make up this government are so brain dead. A month back I remember someone from Syriza being interviewed on Greek tv saying that Europe could just print them money and give it to them. Like all they needed was a printer and a computer to solve this. The sad thing is that this person was serious too.
seems the ECB is printing money as we speak, how do you think money is created? the UK and the ECB create and pump money into their economy all the time, i believe they call it 'quantititive easing' its all a farce, designed to exert control over member states.
Syriza, the new Greek government that intended to rescue Greece from austerity, has come a cropper. The government relied on the good will of its EU ?partners,? only to find that its ?partners? had no good will. The Greek government did not understand that the only concern was the bottom line, or profits, of those who held the Greek debt.
The Greek people are as out to lunch as their government. The majority of Greeks want to remain in the EU even though it means that their pensions, their wages, their social services, and their employment opportunities will be reduced. Apparently for Greeks, being a part of Europe is worth being driven into the ground.
The alleged ?Greek crisis? makes no sense whatsoever. It is obvious that Greece cannot with its devastated economy repay the debts that Goldman Sachs hid and then capitalized on the inside information, helping to cause the crisis. If the solvency of the holders of the Greek debt, apparently the NY hedge funds and German and Dutch banks, depends on being repaid, the European Central Bank could just follow the example of the Federal Reserve and print the money to secure the Greek debt. The ECB is already printing 60 billion euros a month to save the European financial system, so why not include Greece?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/starvation-is-the-price-greeks-will-pay-for-remaining-in-the-eu/5455939
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Manchester united's reserve keeper is Victor Valdes, Bayern munich have pepe Reina on the bench, Liverpool's reserve keeper is Adam Bogdan :lol: :lol: another top signing, you're going places boys.
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No sympathy, I reckon if they all voted for who ever you told them to they'd still be in this same situation. You don't care for people even your own, you're an apologist for the real crooks above who have syphoned off all the money.
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the tragic tale and human side of the real price of cuts and austerity in Greece, read and weep and some demand more cuts to 'balance the books' Greece cannot continue on in this union. I've read some heartless comments at the end of the article, which is not surprising really as I've read the same from fellow Greeks on here.
Be honest with yourselves when I ask if those dying and being mistreated in those hospitals are the reason the country is in debt.
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Meanwhile in another EU country
Massive debts of up to 40 fat cats written off by IBRC in deals costing taxpayer 1billion euros
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/massive-debts-up-40-fat-5841114
You see you can blame the 'greek mentality' and 'lazy non tax paying greeks' all you like but regardless of where you are in the EU this sort of thing goes on but it doesn't outrage people, just like that, the debt of rich people has been socialised and working people in Ireland will now have to foot the bill through 'austerity' and cuts.
And we read on here that its only Greeks that have a problem with the EU. It baffles me as to why people give the real thieves a free pass.
meanwhile here in the UK another millionaire is ripping off the tax payer, why doesn't he pay for his own security? but hey lets all get upset at those claiming unemployment benefit, and vent our spleen at them for all the UKs debt problems.
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Verona are contemplating whether to keep Tachtsidis (article is in Italian). The article mentions that Tachtsidis is valued to high at $2.5 million to make his move permanent.?He's still young, plays for his country and played regularly in the series 'a' for the last 3 years or so, how can $2.5m(dollars?) be too high, Liverpool shelled out
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33046003
ings can only get better :D
a sign of ings to come :D
its signings like this that are the reason Liverpool are inept and will once again not be challenging
from Suarez Alonso Torres Mascherano Reina Arbeloa Agger & Gerrard to Ings Mignolet Toure Sakho Borini Balotelli & Enrique :lol: :lol:
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The only Greek victims in this whole crisis are those who genuinely wanted change and had to spoil their ballot because they knew what more ND/PASOK/SYRIZA would bring.Exactly, elections in Greece are pointless because who ever comes in is completely bent/irresponsible and corrupt, so regardless of who Greeks voluntarily voted in, the corruption/red tape/bureaucracy remains. Now we have EU corruption on top of that to deal with also. So who should greeks have elected that would have brought an end to all these horrific practices?
You are typical of many Greeks in Greece. You seek to blame before taking responsibility for your own actions. Greeks made their bed, now they can sleep in ityou're fairly typical of many people, who neglect to put blame where it really lies which is above, and point out the the pennies normal people manage to squeeze off the state. now i realise it all adds up but those at the top have syphoned off far more and want those at the bottom to pay for it through cuts etc. even if Greeks took responsibility worked harder paid all their taxes, it would all disappear, i doubt the greek state would spend it on improving the country.
No European would tolerate the systems in place in Greece. As I said, in Spain politicians are constantly being caught with their hands in the till, but even they have the brains to realise you have to generate money as a country in order to steal something in the first place.Once again politicians being caught robbing the state blind, and they face no consequences, while people look to blame each other.
Greeks do have the brains to realise that money needs to be generated, which is why state assets are sold, the proceeds disappear and the greeks are then asked to cough up, you know the ones that got nothing from the sell off.
Maybe we should just give up some land in exchange for debt relief and let the germans or Brits run our affairs as we're incapable.
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Bulgaria lost 20% of their population as a direct result of joining the EU, as much as their tourist industry and construction was booming there, skilled workers realised they could earn more working in places like England Germany and Scandanavia.
Back to Greece, did you know as part of the terms dictated to Greece by the EU/Troika are demands for further low cost privatisation that only really benefit foreign companies, one scandalous example that stands out from a long list is that of 28 buildings sold in 2013 by the Greek state, it still uses them and must pay the new owners ?600m in rent over the next 20 years, almost triple their sale price.
Thats the kind of thing that i object to and don't feel its fair for Greek people to foot the bill for, whilst being told they are lazy misguided etc etc.
If you lived there and saw this sort of thing happening you wouldn't want to give them a penny of your taxes, i know i wouldn't.
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You also don't seem to have a problem with all the Greek Farm subsidies that are stolen by the "working" people who claimed they owned a bunch of livestock or farmed land which they didn't. Or the "working" people who worked at offices that provided drivers licenses to people who made 200k a year by taking bribes. So no matter what, if you come up with 600 euros, no matter how bad your driving skills are, you get a drivers license.
I have questions for you...
Is it ok to report you own 300 sheep when you only own 50 and collect thousands of EU subsidies?
Is it ok to say that you have x amount of acres of a certain crop when in fact you don't even have 1 acre and collect thousands of EU subsidies?
Is it ok to pay a $600 or more bribe to get a drivers license when you can't pass the driving test?
Frankly I don't think its ok. You can talk about banks loaning Greece money and thats fine but you can't just ignore all the corruption from the people and the mentality of pillaging the government. Everyone is robbing the government. From the elites to the farmers.
fair point but if we weren't in the EU then these subsidies wouldn't be available, which come with strings attached. So many EU grants all around Europe have disappeared and are unaccounted for its not just a Greek problem.
why are you outraged by people pillaging the government but not by the government/banks pillaging the people by taking loans in exchange for far higher bribes than some bent driving examiner got. no one seems concerned with a minister pocketing millions in bribes in exchange for fleecing his own country.
The more money people have the more they spend which is better for everyone, austerity cannot work.
the former defence Minister pockets 50 million??? what's the point arguing when the tax man can't collect a cent....Or red tape stops me from opening up a business in a quick productive manner......red tape is not the fault of the person trying to start a new business, those at the top make the laws(red tape). Besides austerity/cuts cause unemployment not growth that's why the taxman can't collect a cent.
until we realise there is no German/UK/USA/NATO/EU conspiracy plan to screw us over the better....
nice, put words into my mouth, i never said any of the above, just pointed out that the EU is corrupt/incompetent and unaudited, i don't think there's anything controversial in that sentence, perhaps we should be more concerned with that and their pillaging rather than be upset that some mechanic was earning big money back in the day in Greece, or some farmer that squeezed a little something off this pathetic organisation.
greece sold bonds to pay for early and generous retirements, social programs along with bloated public sector jobs, and those subsequent benefits. a family member retired from OTE at age 47 - full pension and govt. paid his kids high education. another example was olympic airways, before it went belly-up. with routes and equipment, olympic had 3xs the amount of employees needed to run the daily operations. a vote for this MP, saw a few dozen employees show up to work to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee all day.Again this isn't the fault of people who are now having to suffer cuts/austerity and tax increases dictated to them by a foreign power. I get more upset when those at the top rip off the taxpayer to a far higher degree and it seems people are happy to let that slide and focus on 'generous pensions' and a 'bloated public sector' but who run the public sector? Its like the BBC in the UK, overstaffed generous pensions money being wasted and blown on nonsense yet people in England are outraged at those on benefits, they dutifully pay their license fee and are proud of their great BBC.
yes, i agree, many simple folk who have no clue of what has happened in greece dismiss the saga as 'lazy' or 'scamming' greeks. this isn't a media conspiracy - it's just ignorant, lazy people living in a world of twitter with a need of having 2 or 3 words describing a complex and intricate issue.
let's face it, some can't stand greeks and greece...so regardless of situation, they will always make a negative comment. you can never change their minds.
the above is true, the same is true for most hacks in the UK, but who alleged a 'media conspiracy'?
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bit like the UK and US really, banks lent irresponsibly to those they knew couldn't pay back what they borrowed, they did it for a quick buck/bonus/commission, it was obvious it would go tits up, yes some people were stupid, borrowed too much and spent borrowed money, but you and other posters on here are happy to overlook the money the governments squandered through corruption and incompetence, why do you give a free reign to those at the top who squandered more than the average working greeks did, and when i point it out posters get defensive saying there's 'no conspiracy' or 'greeks crying conspiracy' our former defence minister was jailed for 20 years how much did he on his own squander? and he wasn't the only one, why are you happy to overlook that and point the finger squarely at the 'greek mentality' greek people the'left' the 'unions' etc, sure it all contributes but pails into insignificance when you look at the corruption from those at the top.
Now the banks want the money back and of course the Greeks are crying conspiracy. Yet, they probably have a 2004 C class MB in the driveway.Firstly i have no problem with those who have second homes nice cars etc, why shouldn't they? secondly, where did the banks that loaned the money actually get it from? they are private companies, if they lend irresponsibly and don't get their money back well thats their tough luck as far as i'm concerned, F*** em. Small businesses don't get bailed out and neither should banks via the government at the expense of working people.
The Greek Economy Thread
in Let's talk about this
Posted
Name names, lets find out who these nasty 'lefty' 'communist' 'political schizophrenic' scumbags are. I guess they must be the offspring of communists.
Weird though because i haven't seen a single post on here attacking 'capitalism' or championing an 'anti capitalist ticket'