Greece v Switzerland

[rodoj]

Game was lost by:

Otto - not having Papastathopoulos and Ninis on the bench and putting in Patsa. He was outcoached today.

Basinas - I've said it before, stick a fork in him, he's done! He is too slow in building up the game.

It's no surprise that the NT had its best game (vs Latvia) when he was sulking on the sidelines rather than having the honor of playing, much less being captain!

We lost at home in front of a good crowd. Otto asked them to come, they did, and the team stuck it up. Don't complain when the crowd would rather watch the game on tv next time....

[warzycha]

I have not seen the whole game just some selected highlights so I am in no position to judge players...but what is clear is the real test was Switzerland. Yes Greece beat Luxembourg, Luxembourg and Moldova but lost to a team who will be competitor.

The saving grace for Greece is Switzerland lost 1-2 to Luxembourg and Israel drew with Latvia 1-1 that has evened out the Group.

Greece now has 2 games with Israel that are crictical and like last Euro qualifiers they marched into the finals.

What I am worried is the lack of young players being used and the tactics. Players like Liberopoulos, Basinas. etc should be gone. You need experience but you also need youth. Why was Amanatidis not used instead of Liberopoulos.

The idea of Charisteas as a winger is crap. Both Gekas and Charisteas should be the front fowards. Samaras and Amanatidis should be wingers or bring in Ninis to cover. Karagounis the central midfield attacker with Ninis as cover.

One defensive midfielder being Katsouranis with Torosidis as cover.

In central defence have a selection of Dellas, Kirgiakos, Papadopoulos but not all 3 and the full backs being Spiropoulos (left) insted of Torosidis and Seitaridis at right. But players like Melissis, Dimoutsos, Vintra and other youn players need a chance.

The tactics need to be changed. Greece needs more attack and to think of attacking. With 2 defensive midfielders in Basinas and Katsouranis they lack width and need wingers to attack and not place Charisteas in this position. Gekas and Charisteas have been in great form for Greece but need to develop their partnership.

All I am saying is give opportunities to blood some youth. Look and Russia and Turkey with players like Arshavin and Turan. If Greece had a player like Arshavin who keeps attacking they would be potent force.

[warzycha]

Missed someone who could have replaced Kirgiakos being Tavlaridis. He plays for St Etienne and is used in most games by them. Given that French League is defensive in terms of goals per game, I would have thought he would be ideal

[mangas21]

the team is just not that good....why cant we just accept it....analyze and make and excuses until we are all blue in the face, but it still remains a fact that we are mediocre.....swiss was a very beatable side....had we sustained the pressure that we came out with in the second half we would have had a much better chance....but, alas, we put the gas to the floor, tie the game and then, bam, ease off the pedal and eat goal number two....the team just doe not have the mentality to play offensive pressure football.....

when they paly their "A" game they can compete with everyone..but they dont always bring it because again, thei just ain't a top level....so keep your eexpectations low, and you wont be disappointed, and hope they can figure it out for the next game....

[jarvis1981]

Game was lost by:

Otto - not having Papastathopoulos and Ninis on the bench and putting in Patsa. He was outcoached today.

Basinas - I've said it before, stick a fork in him, he's done! He is too slow in building up the game.

It's no surprise that the NT had its best game (vs Latvia) when he was sulking on the sidelines rather than having the honor of playing, much less being captain!

We lost at home in front of a good crowd. Otto asked them to come, they did, and the team stuck it up. Don't complain when the crowd would rather watch the game on tv next time....

Regarding Basinas......

Have you seen his crosses and corner kicks. How high are these balls; they must be 100 feet in the air.

I watched part of the Mexico at Canada game which ended in a 2-2 draw. All the crosses and corner kicks were bullets from both sides. Hard, low and on target.

Also both Canada and Mexico are much younger than Greece.

Greece may not be in the class of Mexico but it still amazes me that they won't bring in a few young players especially when it's clear that the some players are finished.

[aekrossoponti]

aekrossoponti - it's good to see you post, hope you've been ok.

what are the answers? different players? different schemes? both? neither and greece is condemned to poor football?

i ve been fine. had a hard time tracking all your posts though :D

as for the greek nationalelf i dont really have a clear perspective. i just see greece at a similar point where germany was some 8 yrs ago. playing horrible, dull football. somehow managing to get results. klinsmann+loew basically overhauled the whole german nationalmannschaft. adding modern training methods, playing modern one touch football. and jogi loew now follows this path and germany does play rather watchable and entertaining football.

the problem is greece has nowhere near the players germany has. but having said that its imperative to use the few really good players we have right.

for me this starts with torosidis, who may be our brightest players but is criminally wasted by otto. small teams have to play their stars where they are best and not use them to fill holes. this means either put torosidis on the right or into DM. maybe the latter is mor realistic beacuse otto adores giourkas and wont abandon him. which in turn may turn out o.k. because i think our midfiled is the bigger problem.

basinas and katsou don t really offer what we would need in midfield. the problem is i dont really see any alternatives. makos maybe? pliatsikas? i dont know we would have to try some players out. i strikes me that germany calls up players from the second league to give them opportunities and otto never does try anyone. we need to experiment more because its obvious we are not going to cut it with basinas, katsou and kara in midfield. especially not in 2010. patsa being his sub for kiriakos is unacceptable for me given the wealth of cb talent greece has.

spyropoulos is an issue. people can argue he has been weak for pao, etc. but we need to do something to finally utilise torosidis. whether spyropoulos is the answer. or darlas or even vyntra at left back, i dont know. but the way otto handles things we probably will never know.personally i d try spyropoulos. especially given the fact that otto is now using 3 central defenders. any defensive limitations spyropoulos may have, can be handled.

ninis is another big question mark. i am unsure if he could help. he hasnt shown much for pao this season.

papastathopoulos on the other hand should have a more prominent role. also we have to give moras, and perhaps even tavlaridis a chance. to see whether they can help. at the moment, we ar one injury away from total turmoil.

up front i would need charisteas in the box. he is too good in the air to play on the flanks. gekas is totally out of form. so i d give samaras another shot. although he seems a bit weak and unfocused.

against italy one could try something like this 3-5-2 ish scheme bearing in mind otto won t drop giourkas:

.....................chalkias....

papastathopoulos...dellas..kiriakos

giourkas...toro....katsou(basinas)...spyropoulos

....................karagounis........

..............charisteas...samaras

i dont whether this woul mean better football. as i am somewhat desillusioned by the greek squad. i d just hope this would mean more crosses into the box that charisteas may be able to convert. personally i d like to see toro on the right for that reason as well.

[loup]

at this point are we not better off with

--Giorkas-Dellas - Kyrgiakos

Toro-----------------Spyropoulos

in the back of this formation that we have been using

[thrylos]

Good to see th Torosidis comments. I read often I just don't post, but I have to say that Torosodis has to be a DM. He has too much to offer. Greece needs a player like him running up and down the middle and being all over the place because the other 3 midfielders have lost a ste or two

[Akritis_1944]

I didn't want to post since the match as I was just too dissapointed.

I knew that we are just not good enough against average teams. Against weak opposition we are fine. We get the results even though at times teams dominate us.

I have been calling for Otto to resign for 4 years. He is not the right person for our ethniki any more.

I don't want to go through the misery of our last Euro tournament at the WC in South Africa.

If we do infact qualify we'll get humilated by whichever African team is in out group, same applies for the Asian team and the South American side as well.

I can see it now - we limp into the WC (only because we are in a weak Euro group) and we are drawn the following teams and get the following results:

* Greece (Winner of Euro group)

* Australia (Runner up in Asia) we lose 1 nil (this result will push me over the edge and I will commit suicide, but not before I assisinate Otto)

* Togo (4th best Afican team) we lose 2 nil

* Jamaica (3rd best from Concacaf beat Fiji to qualify) we lose 3-1

Dellas/Charisteas/Basinas/Liberopoulos announce their retirement at the final press conference where immediately Takis Fyssas and Gagatsi hold lengthy talks with the recent retired players to convince them to play until the 2012 European Championships in Ukraine/Poland.

[gcp]

Ta idia Panteli mou ta idia Pantelaki mou. I fail to understand you guys, hope to qualify for what reason? To look stupid once again?

Now lets wait to see/hear the thrasos our leventes will display once again in their interviews. It's goota be the lack of support, the spectators fault, cause our leventes can of course do no wrong.

Wake up folks, WE SUCK!! Learn to like it cause it's not changing any time soon. As for that German stubborn donkey of ours, well, there's a lot that can be said but there's no need as it's useless! I am freakin' done with this lot, they will receive not another minute of my time. :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

[cyberfish]

I finally watched the game today. In the first half we were atrocious. All our problems stemmed from the absence of our midfield. The game plan was to have three CBs and push the fullbacks high to move the ball forward. It was also evident that one of the three CBs had the option of moving the ball to midfield.

This was a flawed design for many reasons. None of our CBs can create, and neither of our fullbacks can support the offense, especially since the Swiss drove the ball to the wings and forced both our fullbacks to play deep. In essence we were playing 5-2-3 most of the time. Way to bring the game with ease in your own box!No creative game from midfield whatsoever and no good way to stop the swiss midfield.

You know I am a formation junkie, and over the years I learned that there is only one good formation: the one that's right for the skills your players possess. This one I saw was a flawed formation with players who aren't able to do what it's asked from them. Otto tried to make up for the lack of creativity in midfield by putting a third CB in and asking the fullbacks to carry the game forward. Mind as well tie their shoelaces together.

As far as I am concerned, forward-driving fullbacks are auxiliary and not a substitute for AMs. Such formation would work if there was a central AM, or if either (or both) of our wingers could play as midfielders.

I wrote all this after the first half and then I waited to see the changes in the second half, the ones I thought were coming after reading the messages here. So I waited to see why we played so much better in the second half. I don't have the benefit of the emotions of a live view so I can understand why some here thought we were so much better in the second half. I though we sucked just as bad.

Kudos to the Swiss who looked like the better players an the better team on the pitch.

The third CB was completely superfluous in this game, and this was as bad a coaching job as I have seen in years (and you know I am no Otto hater). The lineup was bad, the bench was horrid, the substitutes were head-scratchers. Otto has won some games for us so I guess he is entitled to lose one or two here and there on a bad day.

There are plenty of games ahead and we are still in the driver's seat, but with this kind of performances from our players and our coach it would not be impossible to be staring at a "reverse miracle" in the end.

[loup]

None of our CBs can create

As far as I am concerned, forward-driving fullbacks are auxiliary and not a substitute for AMs.

Exactly

[GreekLunatic]

The sad thing is that the Swiss aint better then us. I hoped Otto would blood some of the youngsters and also the team doesnt look fit.

[PAO_OR_DEATH]

all in all, this was an expected reault deep down we all knew this would happen BUT the fact is no matter how s%$#! we are no matter how s%$#! the swizz are, Charasteas did score another goal and the officiating was atrocious (.......like my spelling....) this game should have been 4-2 iF you count that perfect pass by SAMARAS to an Absent Gekas who thought...oh bugger it I wont bother scoring today!!! anyway qualies are not over yet and I think we can still maintain a top spot if OTO wakes up and smells the coffee, but thats hopeful...

[drakos13]

was nobody pleased with the way we pressed 2nd half? we made chances, we found space, we didnt rest with the ball and nobody cares....

hell for ONCE Greece went DOWN and equalized.....

Sure, Swiss scored after an error, but honestly, and as a critic of Greek national team , I felt that after our 1-1 we were going to be pressing for the win, because we were totally outplaying them...I do not understand people's ranting on how good the Swiss were..what exactly did they do 2nd half other than scuttle around their box, have 2 counterattacks, and capitalizing on 1 stupid backpass? Nothing really...

only one mistake, one goal and were shot.....that is just football.

And BTW, the team DID make chances, and DID equalize after going down 2-1. The play was NOT offsides. I think were being a bit too hard on the NT on this. When your goals dont count, 1 mistake costs....This is football and somedays you dont have any luck. Look at Switzerland, this is the first game they have had any luck at all it seems after the Czech and Turkey games in the Euro not to mention the Luxemborg game.

OK our first half was very bad, but 2nd half definitley warrants credit, they gave a lot out there and I cant beleive people are suggesting otherwise. Usually I am used to seeing an Ethniki go down, stay down, come out the next half and hardly create a chance. No we are seeing a team thats fighting for the win. Thats SOME good isnt it? I think the team's system is good. We need a few tweaks, replacing old parts (BASINAS, LYBEROPOULOS) and then well be better. And not to mention our best defender came off with an injury.

I mean seriously if Nkofo had shot out or had his effort cleared off the line and our 2nd goal counted wed be heralding the great comeback and 2nd half performance. Instead were saying it was all horrible. I dont know about that. Weve given crap games from the past, but this one was not a crap game. We could have won out there. Otto's mistakes were mainly in putting in Lybe over Gkekas (useless as we started getting the ball forward 2nd half, which is when Gkekas makes the difference, Lybe is too old and lost) allowing Basinas on the pitch....

[Genome]

OK our first half was very bad, but 2nd half definitley warrants credit, they gave a lot out there and I cant beleive people are suggesting otherwise. Usually I am used to seeing an Ethniki go down, stay down, come out the next half and hardly create a chance. No we are seeing a team thats fighting for the win. Thats SOME good isnt it? I think the team's system is good. We need a few tweaks, replacing old parts (BASINAS, LYBEROPOULOS) and then well be better. And not to mention our best defender came off with an injury.

A team that is fighting for the win AFTER they've been scored on... that's what it always is, we start playing after something goes wrong! And I don't use the Latvia and Luxembourg games as a reference here obviously... but against real opposition...

just like our mentality at the Euro 2008. We started playing for the win AFTER we were 100% sure that we were out of the tournament, our only good game being vs Spain (which we lost 1-2, I can live with that vs Spain). Had we played like that vs Russia and Sweden ... but until that game with Spain, all we did was defend and pass the ball around in the backline endlessly... I don't know if Otto is entirely to blame for this, or if our players share in the blame...

Also our players just don't show enough heart for comebacks... just compare us to the Turkish team. I don't rate the Turks better than us, but just look at how they can turn around a game... even against good opposition!

All in all this was a big disappointment, we could've won this game, it was Switzerland after all, and they won imho because we're (Otto!?) making the same mistakes again and again...

[Clover22]

I don't quite understand why you guys are even bothering w/ this, and getting angry and upset because Otto didn't do this or didn't call that player. After all this time, after all these games w/ him, after the comments he made during the Euro in June where he wouldn't even take responsibility for the teams lousy showing, you still seem to think that somehow, some way, he's going to do something different so we can advance w/ a tough side. When you have a game like football, it has to be approached with an open mind and treated almost like an art form. That means working w/ different players to create a system where everyone communicates and has a "sixth sense" during a game. There's no reason why the players we have can't gell. They CAN, and we could have a really good team. But w/ Otto in there you've got stubborness and ego at work. If you have negative elements like these you can't have a successful side. Otto was great up to a certain point and I was in favor of keeping him for WC 2006. But after that no. He's not progressive. So if the fans REALLY cared about this team, if they were really serious about supporting a something that works, they would organize and demand big changes, like getting a new coach. But until then...

[as5664]

I can see it now - we limp into the WC (only because we are in a weak Euro group) and we are drawn the following teams and get the following results:

* Greece (Winner of Euro group)

* Australia (Runner up in Asia) we lose 1 nil (this result will push me over the edge and I will commit suicide, but not before I assisinate Otto)

* Togo (4th best Afican team) we lose 2 nil

* Jamaica (3rd best from Concacaf beat Fiji to qualify) we lose 3-1

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: That sounds about right. Who scores the goal against Jamaica; Charisteas head from a corner?

Don't worry, we're probably not going to qualify anyway. If we tie/lose with Israel and suffer another loss/tie, then the group is up for grabs--probably Israel would take 1st.

Meh, we always have the next Balkan cup to look forward to. :box: :box:

I'm surprised many on this thread are calling our side "mediocre". We are not even fit for mediocrity. For every match, our side is sloppy, slow and uncreative. Sad to say the Turks are waay better than us. They suffer from inconsistency, but the raw talent is there.

Otto is not calling up any youth b/c he has cooperation and loyalty from these players, and, therefore, puts him in a unique opportunity he would never have had in Germany as a coach--he is Der Furher of a national team and that for him is priceless. He is basically having fun in his old age; he is not in this to win it. Aek66 expressed disbelief that Otto's 50 years experience would allow obvious tactical mistakes. This is Otto's version of Boca Raton and afternoon shuffleboard--> he doesn't care. Period.

[zenon]

This latest defeat is quite depressing. Not that I felt that Greece were at the start of a "new dawn" because they had beaten three weak teams etc but because its the same old thing with Rehaggel. For me we should have said thanks very much for what you helped achieve at 2004 but since then you are treating your job like a pension fund and just coasting along.

He should have been removed from his position just for laughing with the russian fans whilst his team were losing at euro 08, NO Greek manager or one that really cared about the result from the heart would have done that.

For me the guy is patronising with an Uncle Otto knows best attitude.

He has always been a cautious type of manager and this has bought him success but the NT needs a younger man with more drive and more courage to change the team and to take risks. Greece always seem to be on the back foot with his style of management.

For me football is all about attitude, being positive and forcing the opposition on the back foot either by pure skill or by playing a fast "in your face" game.

The Greek basketball team proves time after time that being a small country or having a Greek manager does not mean you can't achieve great things consistently.

When there is a basketball finals the Greek team is always spoken about with respect but when the football team is spoken about by the media it is either patronised like in 04 or laughed at. Try living in the UK during such times some of the things said are so disrespectful you want to throw something through the TV screen.

I have gone on a bit but I'm p%%%st off.

Finally what do people thing about Angelos Anastasiades as manager he has done an excellent job with Cyprus with limited resources. They at least play on the front foot!!!

He is a proven international manager and he's Greek! Either way I can't lose as I am a Cypriot but there is only so much he can achieve on a small island like Cyprus. With Greece he would achieve much more. (unless the Greek players turn against him because he's Greek) .......sad!

[gcp]

"I mean seriously if Nkofo had shot out or had his effort cleared off the line and our 2nd goal counted wed be heralding the great comeback and 2nd half performance. Instead were saying it was all horrible"

Drakos13 kai an h giagia mou ixe axamna thatan o papous mou. That's why we Greeks never get ahead, there's always that big if word to throw around and there's always someone else's fault rather than ours. Sad mentality but it's the Greek mentality and we don't seem to be able and/or willing to shake it for hundreds of years now.

Genome and clover22, you are dead on, once more, with everything you've written.

"Otto is not calling up any youth b/c he has cooperation and loyalty from these players, and, therefore, puts him in a unique opportunity he would never have had in Germany as a coach--he is Der Furher of a national team and that for him is priceless. He is basically having fun in his old age; he is not in this to win it. Aek66 expressed disbelief that Otto's 50 years experience would allow obvious tactical mistakes. This is Otto's version of Boca Raton and afternoon shuffleboard--> he doesn't care. Period".

Exactly true as 5664. Remember Otto's high fiving the Russian spectators, good enough to make a Greek fan puke!. If I was in charge he would have been sacked and escorted out of the field right there and then. Alla the powers that be mas grapsane sta apauta tous gia allh mia fora. Kai meta paraponiounte giati o kosmos then paei sto gipedo. Ore klotsies kai mpatses pou thelete oloi sas!

"With Greece he would achieve much more. (unless the Greek players turn against him because he's Greek) .......sad!"

And they most likely would as we've always had that katarameni ksenomania.....

meta to Euro 2008 ipa oti xriazonte rizikes alages, they didn't happen and here's the results. What will it take?

[Clover22]

Zenon thats a good post and you know its funny, I was thinking earlier today about Anastasiades! If it were up to me, and I absolutely had to choose between Otto and Anastasiades, I would definitely go w/ Anas. That would be an improvement because he has experience and he would organize the team. He may not be the greatest coach around or anything, but he is good and he would want to prove something. You know I don't live in Greece so its difficult from NY but the fans who live there can have a tremendous influence on the situation if they were to organize. Its absolutely possible but they haven't done anything because they're not as connected to the NT like they are to the clubs. I know this was discussed in another thread but they have staged demonstrations and they have worked (Panathinaikos fans earlier this year; AEK fans when Santos wanted to leave).

[AEK-MTL]

Not too sure about Anastasiadis, to be honest. He's done well for Cyprus but how was his tenure at PAOK and PAO? Not trying to be a smartass cause I honestly don't know. Can any fans shed some light?

I can't see EPO sacking Otto unless we get a large string of bad results and given the nature of our group, this is unlikely. We should still qualify for the World Cup and this will be enough for EPO. The fact that we will likely be embarassed in 2010 as we were in 2008 is of no consequence to EPO. They collect their money so they're happy.

On the bright side, we still have a long time until WC 2010. Might be some big injuries or rapid declines/increases in form which force Otto's hand. It occured prior to 2004 and look what happened there :tup: .

[Genome]

For some reason I can't believe that this wouldn't happen. I mean he's pushed it too far already, some changes are long overdue...

Papastathopoulos should at least be on the bench, an in-form Ninis as well, ...

[cyberfish]

For some reason I can't believe that this wouldn't happen. I mean he's pushed it too far already, some changes are long overdue...

Papastathopoulos should at least be on the bench, an in-form Ninis as well, ...

I think Ninis should be on the bench in-form or not. Besides Karagounis we don't have any other creative midfielders. Zero. Besides, Otto has made a career out of playing out-of-form players. Going into a game with a crippled bench (not to mention a lineup) makes no sense to me.

[Genome]

True ...

... this game vs the Swiss left me a bit depressed.

I do suspect we'll snatch a win in Switzerland though...

Anyways some players on our NT are due to retire before the WC.