Nilaul
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Posts posted by Nilaul
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13 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
I get what you're saying, and make solid points. However we can also make arguments where these rules would strengthen a league long term. You brought up OFI, so let's hypothesize. A owner comes in and invests 50 million in players, and let's assume he doesn't care that OFI is a very small market, and has been struggling for decades paying players. The fair play rules would put obstacles and make it difficult. That being said in this instance the fair play IMO works perfect. The reason is you can't base a league on billionaires coming in, spending big money, and using the club for laundering drug money. If we look at the SL...this was the norm. And we all know they don't care about the brand, only care to move cash, and when they're finished the team is abandoned holding on to millions of dollars in debts.
Fairplay forces teams to also fully have the money necessary for the player's wage during the duration of the contract. So Ofi wouldn't be put into debt if the owner suddenly disappeared as the money required for that player and his wages would already have to be in the team's bank. So Ofi could only gain from someone putting in that money, it would cause fanbase growth and its brand would grow to some degree, and the team would also be able to negotiate a better TV licensing deal etc, definitely making the team better off then it was from before. So even if the owner used the team for money laundry or whatever the financial rules would have made sure that whatever player he brought would have been fully paid for. However, right now the rules forbid from owners chipping in their own pocket. For all the positive, the FFP rules try to do it seriously hampers the development of small teams and even bigger teams like Panathinaikos. olympiakos etc (which are small compared to Chelsea, Barcelona, Benfica etc).
10 hours ago, Nea Bafra said:can we get all the bullsh1te posts that arent about this game deleted or moved for everyone's sanity. the detours this has taken are disgraceful
Moving the posts to "Other Teams/Leagues Discussion" would do, no need to delete.
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4 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
The fair play will eventually help all teams stay out of debt....that's the main reason for the crisis in Greek football. Going forward we should start seeing a better debit free league.
I didn't mean to say the financial fair play is a bad thing, I meant that it has gone too far, and its stopping smaller clubs from growing. If someone comes along and wants to pump in money into a team then let him, on the condition that that money isn't loaned money and that that money is considered "lost" by the investor (like a gamble).
On a less European scale, the way financial fair play is set up: Right now, for example, no one could buy OFI and pump 50 million into the team, so that it can compete in the superleague because UEFA would kick them out of European leagues. It takes a lot of patience to build a team under these rules, and this just hammers the development of the local leagues. -
1 hour ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
You can rejoice yes. And I have nothing bad to say about PAOK....I wish them all the best in Europe starting this summer. However it's not me who has the problem, it's some of your buddies on here. They wish for the demise of the big clubs. Just relax enjoy and hope for a stronger league in the future. Hoping to become the next gavros in a poor league will not happen. Example of that, the gavros themselves. It was a matter of time before the league dragged them down to a lower level. If you're hoping to become big....you need a strong league. That's all I'm saying.
Paok is definetly going to grow and become a more expensive team (with the limits of Financial fair play), probably becoming the most expensive Greek team ever (100 mill isn't what is was back then). But that would be all for nothing if the league is gonna be crap, Paok will have an easy time in the league and nothing is going to prepare them for Champions league, not to mention the road to champions league is gonna be harder if nothing is going to gather points in European matches. So yeah I want a big Panathinaikos, I want Alouzofos to get the F*** out of Panathinaikos, and give it to Ginanakopolous or whatever, instead of being so butthurt, arrogant and proud. I want a strong Aris, a competitive Aek, a good league generally. A league that is won by various strong teams.
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3 hours ago, Blackhawk said:
The other NOVA teams are being paid around 1 to 1.5 mil per season.
There is nothing from stopping them from signing with OPEN TV, but i doubt Savvidis wants to make it a "PAOK" channel. As it is he intentionally did not sign any ex-PAOK players for the weekly Total Football show on the station.
It doesn't really need to full blown PAOK TV just show Paok's one or two matches per week, much like mega used to do. The viewership is probably still too low to make this viable but in the future, it certainly could be possible.
Savidis acquiring his own TV channel is still an interesting move and the fact that Savidis does have its own TV channel might be applying some pressure on Nova. Of course, if Paok decides to move it matches (in order to pump some more money) it won't be this year or next year, due to the contract with Nova. -
To be fair I think that there could be a significant amount of fans that jumped ship to other teams. I am one of them too. But I just don't watch TV, so there's no viewership.
Hopefully, Olympiakos don't abandon watching their own team because they're gonna be butthurt about being 2nd/3rd for the next few years.
7 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:In an ideal world that would be a solution but since we don't really live in an ideal world, and Nova told everyone to negotiate their own deal (which could backfire for them once teams actually get a hang of it). A fairer redistribution model, where the league would negotiate as one, where smaller teams would get a little bit more money would be great if the league didn't get peanuts already.
Being able to negotiate your own deals is a blessing in disguise, these small teams could use the opportunity to talk to a competitor to get a better deal, same with the bigger teams. The world doesn't revolve around Nova, there are alternatives even a separate online streaming deal with Facebook is an option. Of course, it would take some negotiating skills and a can-do-attitude but its doable, and a little bit of thinking outside of the box too, which might be hard for some stuck in the past teams.
Currently its like this:
Aek (5.7 million) (NOVA)
Paok (5.5 million) (NOVA)
Olympiakos (5.5 million) (NOVA)
Panathinaikos (4.2 million) (ERT)
Aris (2 million) (ERT)
Atromitos (1.9 million) (ERT)
Xanthi (1.65 million) (ERT)
Panetolikos (1.65 million) (ERT)
Apollon Smyrnis (1.45 million) (ERT)
Lamia (1.45 million) (ERT)
Missing 6 teams. So if someone wants they can complete the list. Apparently, there's some bonus involved too? Got to feel a little bad for Atromitos, they deserve better.
Also I've been wondering if there's actually something stopping from Paok signing some sort of deal with Open TV, in order to pump millions into Paok? It could be away to get around financial fair play. Also all revenue from CL and match transmission would go directly into Paok, there would be no middle man (Nova) trying to profit off them. -
2 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:
No they didn't. 2009-2010 season you averaged 27k.
So because your millions of fans are not interested we should make concessions and pump money towards your club to get the millions back on board? That is actually the job of the club's owner not anyone else.
"No big clubs, just PAOK, Atromitos together with PAS"
You are delusional. PAOK right here right now is a bigger club than Panathinaikos. They are the 2nd biggest club. They are financially sound with Olympiakos, have the 2nd highest average crowds and 2nd highest social media followers in Greece. That is a fact. Your method of 'millions of pao fans not interested' is quite frankly void.
Not to mention that Just because someone used to Panathinaikos doesn't mean they still are. Supporting a club is not a sentence for life, and fans can jump ship, especially with everything that happened under Alazoufos (I mean the guy made his Panathinaikos fans paint Leoforos for free). Supporting a club is very much like dating a girl, if shizt doesn't go well, you may always dump her for something better. The number of Panathinaikos fans used to be high, but now it is probably lower.
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1 minute ago, Yiankos said:
Άρα μπορούμε να γυρίσουμε στο ότι ο Ολυμπιακός παίζει την καλύτερη μπάλα και αξίζει το πρωτάθλημα.
Ναι φυσικά! Μου έλειψαν η δήλωσις του Σάββα ??
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14 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
I posted the link to the study....read it and you will not believe how far behind they're. They have no interest in promoting the league.
Can you send the link to study plz
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6 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
He's from Scotland. He was banned before....maybe it's time again
I don't think it was @DunfermlineAthleticPaok who constantly tried to derail the thread.
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It would actually be very interesting to hear where that money goes to...
It could be put into good use, like renovating local public pitches around Greece but it probably goes into some fat bastards fat pocket. -
8 minutes ago, Athens4 said:
Do you actually live in Athens?
AEK fell apart in the second half.
Yeah, in the Northen Suburbs.
Yeah, Aek really really did fall apart in the second half
I'm not a fan of bringing new coaches, and team members when the season is in play. It takes a few weeks for a team to get used to a new team philosophy, tactics etc, which might cause some issues during gamedays whilst the team adjusts. -
10 minutes ago, Athens4 said:
Where are you from and which team do you support?
From Athens, support Paok.
However I like watching a good game of football, and I just don't want to see Olympiakos go on a "suspect" league winning streak anymore.
Edit:3-1 Olympiakos- Aek. It is still a fair score. It is literally "defence F*** ups" the game. Long ball (as no one can really string a few passes together), two Aeks defenders one, Olympiakos attacker, he somehow got the ball, passed the ball to an unmarked player in Aeks territory and took a shot, which the goalkeeper blocked unsuccessfully.
4-1 Olympiakos - Aek : Maybe Marinakis is not going to stupidly sell off half the team this year in Anger; doing more damage the good.
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2-1 Olympiakos admittingly deserved this.
Aeks defence went on holidays in the middle of the match. It's not like Fortounis dribbled or anything, he literally runs in a straight line and took a shot. I guess that's the only way to score if both teams are unable to string a series of passes. -
On 2/16/2019 at 1:54 PM, Athens4 said:
Why on Earth would I subscribe when I can watch it for free online? The real solution here would be to make ticket prices affordable, however this is a universal issue. It costs £40+ to watch a game here in London. If tickets were £10-£20 per game then I would probably watch one every week.
But the tickets do cost 10-20 euros here?
And yeah if that's what I'm saying if you can't beat the stream-online-for-free -culture you might as well capitulate on it, sell the rights to Facebook or stream it by yourself and cash in the add revenue. Both can probably earn any team in Greece more then what Nova is currently offering. Or you can still sell your rights to Nova but make it clear that its only for TV streaming, and internet streaming is a completely separate thing. I think it would even be beneficial for some teams to negotiate their own deals rather then to negotiate them as a group. -
This thread went downhill, we had an awesome intellectual conversation and then some guy came along and turned it into a freaking jungle.
Where the mods? -
Hopefully this goes well..
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1 hour ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
So what you're telling me now is....if you prove to the millions of PAO fans, that the league is corruption free, they will start watching Greek soccer? I'm telling you that's absolutely the furthest from being a fact. PAO, and OLYMPIAKOS which in fact make up well over 50 percent of the fan base....don't give a rats ass about proving it's a legit product. All they care is to have top quality sides measuring up to European football....that's the culture of Greek football. What needs to happen is to change the culture and raise the level on the playing field. If PAOK qualifies for the CL....and advances deep into the playoff rounds, you watch how many Greek bandwagoners jump on board.
We all know that when it comes to European matches most Greeks don't care who is playing and that they'll support any Greek team like it is their national team. Granted we take the piss out of the other team's European performance and use it in our "local" arguments but at the end of the day, we all support each other regardless of whos playing. It's probably similar everywhere. I reckon English fans will support their local team in CL, Italians the same etc.
What each team can do locally, is hope to grow their fanbase domestically. That would take clever marketing etc and favourable results. It is a long process, but they should all at least be able to pull fans from their local area. If they downright suck, then nothing can really help them. Except for some sort of goverment plan. I reckon if the government is going to be involved it should be involved properly (not by funding, but by enforcing a set of laws and action plan). But whenever the government tries to help we have someone complaining, because that upsets the balance of power somewhere, and this is why we are a stuck in today's standstill.
We have teams complaining because they will be relegated, and they all want to be in 1st league even though that is one of the big factors causing the financial troubles in the first place. We also have teams trying to manipulate the league , inorder to potentially have an easier time (aka Aek's very stupid league plan), and we have teams were owners just want to cash out asap, instead of thinking of the long term bigger profits. We also have owners who know nothing about running a club, bringing their own club into to the ground, and telling fairytales to their fans and being to proud to admit that they failed and let someone else take over the club (like Alizoufos).
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I thought Poland per-capita wealth is significantly lower than Greece? Portugals is at just slightly higher then Greece?
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44 minutes ago, Soprano76 said:
Having a playoff is absolutely rubbish. Are there any European leagues that have an odd number of teams? I think 10 is way too little but would be okay with anywhere from 12-14 teams.
If you are going to have a playoff then everyone should participate. Wouldn't mind having Olympiakos join in the playoffs a few years ago when everyone else was playing playoffs. They definitely didn't deserve the titles but yeah playoffs do kinda suck.
In an odd number teams scenario, one team would have to have a break, every now and then. Not ideal, but it wouldn't be a bad thing either. 12 teams and 44 match days is a lot, 14 teams and 48 match days, dam! That would be overkill. It wouldn't work with 14 teams for sure.
You'd want to keep the number of teams lower so that the league would have to be played out between the top teams and not be dependent on the results against the "filler content" teams. Take Olympiakos now, they haven't won a single game against the bigger teams, and yet there really high because they have been somewhat steady against the "filler content" teams. I reckon that in the 10 league team Olympiakos would have been even lower. -
56 minutes ago, pash said:
In absolute terms, Poland has a larger market than Greece. Both in terms of nominal GDP and purchasing power, Poland is ahead - even when you account for their population, which is 3.5 times that of Greece (I'm referring to a direct per capita comparison of economic capacity). Elladastan is way, way behind - even if the league was well run and competitive, the teams would not be able to command a comparable allocation of TV monies.
I don't see any reason to drop to ten teams. We end up playing more games, and oversaturate the market with derbies. I think 16 teams with no playoff is the sweet spot. 30 games + a reasonable length for summer break - wam, bam, thank you ma'am.
OK so since we're taking into account population then in an ideal world we should at least be able to pull of a Portugal, which in 2017, was about 125 mill, now it seems to way more maybe in even in 300+. Can't find the exact numbers as it seems that teams sell off their own rights.
The Belgium league makes double of what the Greek superleague made in 2017. The Switzerland league rights are 40 million, which is comparable to what Nova was giving Greece in 2017 (which was 50mil apparently, could be complete bullshit though), and I bet since the league is smaller the teams are probably making more money off the rights then what Greek teams were making back then.
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Random talking about TV rights, you know that the polish league secured themselves a deal where each season direct inflows to clubs will increase by at least 16 million. This league is really losing it in terms of tv rights.
We are talking about a league where stuff like this happens:
https://streamable.com/itjzm
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14 minutes ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
Yes that would work....However the relegation zone could pose issues at the beginning. I can't see 2 teams dropping simply because....the bottom end teams would be almost guaranteed 5 million more in TV revenues alone totaling 7. That said the team dropping would be far superior to the second division. And the team promoted would need to enter debt free, and dropping big money to compete at the top flight. I would drop 1 for a few years, and let things settle...see where we stand. All I know is that the level of play would increase big time.
You may be right that dropping too many teams might slow down the growth the level of playing field. Perhaps a better idea would be one team relegating then with no say, then another team playing it out with the 2nd team. Either way, I think at least we would need to somehow give them a chance because legitimately they might be a better team, then whatever junk ended up being 9th (especially at the beginning).
I suppose that eventually, the 2nd league would also grow some wealth as well, as there would be quite a few teams that will rake a few million from the first league and drop down because they were not good enough, thus slowly increasing the level of playing field bellow too, if they also manage to eliminate the rampant match-fixing that takes place there. -
This would definitely be very watchable:
Look at the teams playing in this hypothetical 10 team league, we got rid of nearly all the junk teams.
Those matches are very watchable and for the first time since forever we might be seeing sold out stadiums on regular bases. Everyone wins, the TV program gets more revenue from ads and the teams get more money from their stadiums.
I've kept the relegations spot to 2, and +1 with playoff with third place from Superleague 2, in order to keep things interesting in the lower end. Definitely a nerve-racking league, no team would want to have a bad season, look how close Panathinaikos is to the relegation zone.
I suppose this could also work with 11 teams, as it would create a 40 game league, as opposed to 36 league game with 10 teams (as a point of comparison the italian league is 38 games) 12 teams might be too much, too many games and too many junk teams. For each team that enters this league, it's an extra 4 match days. -
8 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:
They have....but some feel that the fans would not go for it, not the European way. I guess us North Americans are stupid....we have baseball raking in 10 billion dollars a year, each team playing each other 9 times not including the playoffs. Football only has 16 games, but we can't count that, because the injuries take a toll in football so naturally can't have more games fitted in. Basketball each team plays multiple times 82 game schedule, same with hockey and together they pull in billions of dollars. How about Greek basketball....they always welcome more featured games between the big clubs. I guess they would rather sit around doing nothing in Greek soccer, and watching other leagues around Europe move miles ahead, while the Greek league becomes another Bulgaria....and once that happens, it will never rise again. Have you been reading the papers....apparently PAO will be back in the CL within 3 years!!! LMFAO. It's getting comical.
Its very comical because even If some rich billionaire gets Panathinaikos and takes over he can't just pour money into Panathinaikos for same reason Savidis couldn't just in one year pour 100+ million into his team, financial fair play (which Paok already had a brush with the past). Yeah we got that crap to worry about too.
So if this league goes into the dumpster it's going to be really hard to bring it back up again, but I suppose at that point it really won't matter if you get kicked out of the Europeans cup for FP.
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Posted · Edited by Nilaul
So Aek is banned from the one of the next Uefa competition they qualify in the season of 19-20 and 20-21?
Melissanidis will be very unhappy, he won't be able to pocket another 25 mills for qualification. Watch him quietly disappear for the next two years.