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Omonoia9

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why fourtounis out?

nini very soft....

worst game since sweden...not for any other reason but their absolute LACK of any initiative...they made slovakia look like spain....

hUGE three points...great garbage goal...

I wouldn't go that far. It was ugly, but not THAT bad.
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sorry my friend...it was.....when u consider:

- the competition;

- the importance of the three points;

- the conditions on the field;

- Bosnia's record...

it was a pitiful performance....ok, u create chances and the ball just does not want to in, that's one thing....but to sit back like this slovakia is brazil, scared and let them dictate the game, the pace, no pressure, nothing......it was not only a terriblr display as far playing but worse, the mental approach given the factors above....they looked like spain they way they DOMINATED us....u kidding me?

they need to walk in and let those guys know they are playing a top rated FIFA (that shows you what a joke that rating system is) team, put THEM on the defensive, make THEM adjust to US....

besides you did see the whole game? because if u did and think this was nothing but a pitiful performance, well, then ...........

with all due respect of course

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sorry my friend...it was.....when u consider:

- the competition;

- the importance of the three points;

- the conditions on the field;

- Bosnia's record...

it was a pitiful performance....ok, u create chances and the ball just does not want to in, that's one thing....but to sit back like this slovakia is brazil, scared and let them dictate the game, the pace, no pressure, nothing......it was not only a terriblr display as far playing but worse, the mental approach given the factors above....they looked like spain they way they DOMINATED us....u kidding me?

they need to walk in and let those guys know they are playing a top rated FIFA (that shows you what a joke that rating system is) team, put THEM on the defensive, make THEM adjust to US....

besides you did see the whole game? because if u did and think this was nothing but a pitiful performance, well, then ...........

with all due respect of course

Nobody's saying it wasn't pitiful, but we won. This wasn't as bad as the Sweden game.
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On the other hand I can just easily say:

"Good teams, even playing their F- game, find a way to win. I can remember losing to teams like Albania and struggling against similar caliber opponents......"

we did win...i cant argue with that....but in my opinion it was worse than sweden. DOnt focus on what happen on the field, focus on how we approached the game.

This game was the poster child for what is wrong with the national team. We all agree that they play to the level of their competition. Rarely, if ever, do they win 4-0, or by two or more goals. They do juuuuust enough.

In this game they played BELOW the level of their competition. They made Slovakia look like world beaters. Yet, we dominated Bosnia...That is a direct result of how they approached the game and executed their game plan, both of which were pitiful considering the importance of the three points and the opponent quality....

Greece is most effective defending. Thats what they do naturally - instinctively. Their experience is tight games protecting a lead is very valuable. It is what they do best. It's how they are trained to play. Counter....

I say this alot. They dont impose THEIR will on the game. Maybe they don't have a true identity yet. All good teams have this, an ilk or identity that they execute perfectly..it defines them. What identity does this team have? I can't answer that.

I do know that the "sit back" tactic that they employed against Argentina got them screwed. Same with Germany recently. Do you see the parallels? I still dont agree with such drastic tactics against even those bigger teams. let alone SLOVAKIA for God's sake. Against good teams this approach wont work. Against the SLovakias of the world maybe we eeek by, which we did.

This is my point. The attitude of the team and their approach has to change a bit and this game just showed that tired "sit back" tactic. How good did we look against Bosnia? It wasn't becuase we sat back......

Anyway, thanks for indulging me, and let's hope slovakia and bosnia neutralize

each other next year......

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On the other hand I can just easily say:

"Good teams, even playing their F- game, find a way to win. I can remember losing to teams like Albania and struggling against similar caliber opponents......"

we did win...i cant argue with that....but in my opinion it was worse than sweden. DOnt focus on what happen on the field, focus on how we approached the game.

This game was the poster child for what is wrong with the national team. We all agree that they play to the level of their competition. Rarely, if ever, do they win 4-0, or by two or more goals. They do juuuuust enough.

In this game they played BELOW the level of their competition. They made Slovakia look like world beaters. Yet, we dominated Bosnia...That is a direct result of how they approached the game and executed their game plan, both of which were pitiful considering the importance of the three points and the opponent quality....

Greece is most effective defending. Thats what they do naturally - instinctively. Their experience is tight games protecting a lead is very valuable. It is what they do best. It's how they are trained to play. Counter....

I say this alot. They dont impose THEIR will on the game. Maybe they don't have a true identity yet. All good teams have this, an ilk or identity that they execute perfectly..it defines them. What identity does this team have? I can't answer that.

I do know that the "sit back" tactic that they employed against Argentina got them screwed. Same with Germany recently. Do you see the parallels? I still dont agree with such drastic tactics against even those bigger teams. let alone SLOVAKIA for God's sake. Against good teams this approach wont work. Against the SLovakias of the world maybe we eeek by, which we did.

This is my point. The attitude of the team and their approach has to change a bit and this game just showed that tired "sit back" tactic. How good did we look against Bosnia? It wasn't becuase we sat back......

Anyway, thanks for indulging me, and let's hope slovakia and bosnia neutralize

each other next year......

Fair enough. I don't like Santos either. At least with Otto, we had an identity. The same nonsense with geroi continues under Santos, so what is he good for? We did reasonably well at the Euro, by drawing Poland in a game where the refs screwed us, but we also didn't wake up until we were down 1-0, we lost to the Czechs because we didn't play the first 10 minutes, and we got lucky against Russia. No shame in losing to Germany, but the 4-2 scoreline in that game was kind to us. The way I see it, the only remotely tough(and crucial) game we have left is when we visit the Bosnians. The Bosnians have a huge GD, if we're tied with them on points they beat us.
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On the other hand I can just easily say:

"Good teams, even playing their F- game, find a way to win. I can remember losing to teams like Albania and struggling against similar caliber opponents......"

we did win...i cant argue with that....but in my opinion it was worse than sweden. DOnt focus on what happen on the field, focus on how we approached the game.

This game was the poster child for what is wrong with the national team. We all agree that they play to the level of their competition. Rarely, if ever, do they win 4-0, or by two or more goals. They do juuuuust enough.

In this game they played BELOW the level of their competition. They made Slovakia look like world beaters. Yet, we dominated Bosnia...That is a direct result of how they approached the game and executed their game plan, both of which were pitiful considering the importance of the three points and the opponent quality....

Greece is most effective defending. Thats what they do naturally - instinctively. Their experience is tight games protecting a lead is very valuable. It is what they do best. It's how they are trained to play. Counter....

I say this alot. They dont impose THEIR will on the game. Maybe they don't have a true identity yet. All good teams have this, an ilk or identity that they execute perfectly..it defines them. What identity does this team have? I can't answer that.

I do know that the "sit back" tactic that they employed against Argentina got them screwed. Same with Germany recently. Do you see the parallels? I still dont agree with such drastic tactics against even those bigger teams. let alone SLOVAKIA for God's sake. Against good teams this approach wont work. Against the SLovakias of the world maybe we eeek by, which we did.

This is my point. The attitude of the team and their approach has to change a bit and this game just showed that tired "sit back" tactic. How good did we look against Bosnia? It wasn't becuase we sat back......

Anyway, thanks for indulging me, and let's hope slovakia and bosnia neutralize

each other next year......

Fair enough. I don't like Santos either. At least with Otto, we had an identity. The same nonsense with geroi continues under Santos, so what is he good for? We did reasonably well at the Euro, by drawing Poland in a game where the refs screwed us, but we also didn't wake up until we were down 1-0, we lost to the Czechs because we didn't play the first 10 minutes, and we got lucky against Russia. No shame in losing to Germany, but the 4-2 scoreline in that game was kind to us. The way I see it, the only remotely tough(and crucial) game we have left is when we visit the Bosnians. The Bosnians have a huge GD, if we're tied with them on points they beat us.
Yeah we had an identity w/ Otto up until about 2006; after that it was a joke, he was getting paid well and just didn't care, did NOTHING with the team. We should have an identity now but we don't and thats the coaches fault.

Actually we should not have lost to Germany by that score; in fact we could have beaten them had he used the right players. Germanys offense was good; their defense was nothing special though. So common sense says take advantage of their weaknesses. How do you do that? By playing your best offensive players, which Santos did NOT DO.

Our "sit back" attitude wouldn't be there with more attacking players. The performance in Bosnia was nothing special. We shouldn't be just getting by against teams like Slovakia, we should use the opportunity to score a lot of goals so we finish comfortably on top. Gekas was magically invisible in this game.

Where the hell is Fotakis?

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Om, remember there no winners or losers here, just lively debate....I learned alot on this thread, mostly from those I disagree with initially. having said that,

yes, Bosnia in March....and yes, remotely tough, at best...we came out swinging in that game and should have put in at least two before half time...but, here is the by product of that....did u notice that Bosnia did not look at all like the team that that scored all those goals? Why? because they had to adjust to OUR game which was more offensive and aggressive in the midfield....therefore they 1. kept an extra guy back or deeper, and did not push up as much...of course our defending is our hall mark so that also made a difference. But, when u have to respect the other teams offense then you cant haphazardly push the world up into the offensive zone. So, when we sit back and give space, we basically let the opponent get into a rhythm, get confidence and at teh same time it takes us a while to get on track offensively...

this occurs over and over...how many times do we all comment after a game, "it took us about 20 minutes to get going"....why? why not 3 minutes or 5 minutes....? remember south korea? fukcing souht korea....we sat back and let them get into their game....this is not physical ability....no...its the mental game the strategy and tactics the coach/players approach the game with....

....against slovakia we needed to hit 'em hard and early let them know they are playing a top team....sort of how we felt against Germany...

otto team had identity...and they played it to perfection....he chose the right guys to play that style, but once other coaches figured it out (sweden) he had no answer.

we were afraid of germany and argentina, and the greek inferiority soccer complex that still exists is why they put ten guiys behind the ball against bigger teams...ok, i see that (i dont agree with it) but it is more logical against big teams....sit back and counter , but the signal you send is "we are afraid" so u end up giving too much space and well u see what happens....but, dont do that against slovakia...pluh-eeeeeze....

santos is trying to get these guys to be more dynamic on O, but changing the instincts of grown men is not easy....kone is an attacking mid, taxidis as well....fetfa is also a dynamic player....bring htem in and mold the team.....

the prevailing greek mentality is "we can hold them to zero and counter, we can figure out a way to get the goal we need"......seems like they do that more often than not, but the margin for error is very very very small......

clove, our sit back is an ingrained mind set....bosnia was a good example of how WE can dictate the game......often, we allow the other team to dictate the pace and rythym........thats what sit back does....you do the other team a HUGE favor by sitting back....

torosids is in my doghouse now.....and why was fourtounis not playing? nin is S O F T ........

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Don't mean to state the obvious but could it be that that's all they are capable of doing? Capable btw can be defined in many ways. No doubt the coach is important but in my view the GNTs of past and present are essentially the extension of their society and by today's events it is obvious how much the Greek society has fallen. Arpakola is the identity of our NTs and in extent arpakola is the identity of the society they represent because it's accepted! Hate to admit it but that's the bottom line.

I hope they don't make it to the WC because I'll be attending and don't need to be continuously embarrassed and ragged by my Brazilian family :P

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Don't mean to state the obvious but could it be that that's all they are capable of doing? Capable btw can be defined in many ways. No doubt the coach is important but in my view the GNTs of past and present are essentially the extension of their society and by today's events it is obvious how much the Greek society has fallen. Arpakola is the identity of our NTs and in extent arpakola is the identity of the society they represent because it's accepted! Hate to admit it but that's the bottom line.

I hope they don't make it to the WC because I'll be attending and don't need to be continuously embarrassed and ragged by my Brazilian family :P

I've been thinking about this lately, how the National Team is an extension of society, but more in terms of how the team is being managed. If its a group of guys who make sure their friends get to play no matter if they're under-performing

or they don't have a club team, then there you go, we can complain all we want about the right tactics; if the core problem isn't solved then its the same pattern. Look at all the recent problems with the club teams.

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clove excellent comment re: team reflecting its society..its ssssssssssooo true....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YxOnkiSlmc...feature=related

german sweden 4-4 after germany went up 4-0 !!!!!

tell me we couldn't beat these clowns of our tactics and formations were more aggressive....

but anyway, look at germany's second goal...very nice passing...my question...

Why the FUKC cant WE do that....? we have two legs, we can run, we can see, etc...so why not? is it the players being lazy? do they not know how? is the coach? tactics?

this may seem like a silly question, but its dead serious...if anybody can shed some light on this mystery it would be great...

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Why the FUKC cant WE do that....? we have two legs, we can run, we can see, etc...so why not? is it the players being lazy? do they not know how? is the coach? tactics?

this may seem like a silly question, but its dead serious...if anybody can shed some light on this mystery it would be great...

we can play like that and we did against bosnia and lithuania. we just didn't in slovakia, we played 4-4-2 with fortounis on the left against bosnia and lithuania and for some reason dropped fortounis and reverted to 4-3-3 against slovakia with samaras wasted out on the left, having terrorised the bosnian defenders playing down the middle a few days earlier. the coach chose to change it and the performance was poor but the result is all important.

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js, does one change like that make THAT a big a difference? is that it really? ena-dio is ena dio regardless of the formation, no? and on the you tube it was a triangle with 1-2-3 , a thing go beauty really.....

you know, that play reminds me of the pick and roll in basketball....its ancient, but it work EVERY TIME, even when the defense knows it coming....john stockton and karl malone (utah Jazz, nab) made their living on the ocik and roll....its the nature of the paly that make it work every time, provide its executed properly...

we seemed to have the answer to bosnia...i say its because we dictated the game and pace...isnt 433 more offeinsive? i guess it depends on what the players have the freedom to do...

torsidis is a defenseman but is always deep on the right....like a forward.

one thing is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR.....when the wings or whomever go deep in the ocrners and draw two guys as well as shift the defence's focus, the TOP OF THE BOX ALWAYS has ssssssssoooo much space ............when they go deep the donkey crosses sometimes are wasted efforts vs. a pass to an attacking mid or anyone else for that matter....

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clove excellent comment re: team reflecting its society..its ssssssssssooo true....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YxOnkiSlmc...feature=related

german sweden 4-4 after germany went up 4-0 !!!!!

tell me we couldn't beat these clowns of our tactics and formations were more aggressive....

but anyway, look at germany's second goal...very nice passing...my question...

Why the FUKC cant WE do that....? we have two legs, we can run, we can see, etc...so why not? is it the players being lazy? do they not know how? is the coach? tactics?

this may seem like a silly question, but its dead serious...if anybody can shed some light on this mystery it would be great...

We CAN play more attacking/creative football with the right combination of players and a coach that knows how to instill a positive mentality with the team. Its about creating a unit that has such great communication they don't even have to think about it or second guess. A coach that knows what he's doing would have the team perform as a collective as opposed to a group of individuals or egos. He would say, " We can face any opposition because no team in the world is unbeatable. We can transform into anything we want accordingly. We will attack. We will defend. We will be diamond shaped, triangular, circular, tough, soft, slow, fast; WE are in the drivers seat. We will do this with a calm confidence, because we know we have the ability." I don't know if Santos is speaking like that to the team!
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clove, you know, winning solves everything and we are winning. since '04 when the turning point in greek football occurred, we have been spotty at best scratching the bottom of the elite level team group.....beating russia on the world stage was a significant accomplishment, ( i dont think so, when is the last time russia did anything noteworthy?) yet we always are the underdogs and its always considered an upset when we beat a "bigger" team....nobody expects us to win, yet that is changing. Its all perception really.

if you read popular soccer commentators and related media the greek team is starting to get the respect it deserves. but to take the next and more difficult step upwards requires a more radical mental shift, one which i see as very difficult for the team to make.

our style is very very tight...hold hold hold, try and figure out the soft spot of the other team and capitalize on that. We do rise to the occassion (turkey ukraine, russia ploand etc) BUt we dont "go forward, try and score, keep the other team pinned back thereby making it more difficult for them to move forward"....too many example of us just sitting back (sweden, korea, germany) to name a few....sometimes that works (russia, where we scored on their mistake, not an offensive rush)....thats our style. the margin for error is slim....and so long as we play like htat the perception the team will always be that of underdogs because they dont have any glaringly exciting players - its always the "greek spirit, blah blah, very flattering and true, but its only gets you so far)

again winning is the key, regardless of how its done. the more we qualify and move deep into tournaments, the more resepct the team will get....and more importantly the more confident the palyers will get.... but looking at slovakia and simply concluding "we won, so everything is fine" is not the way the team gets better...we were lucky not to eat three that day....

we have to learn to come out and press immediately, control the pace and flow of the game...but we if dont attck, there is nothing really we can "control"....if we defend, we are at teh mercy of the attacking team....i wish for once they would come out and play like they were already behind 2-0.....you know? with a sense of urgency that only happens when they HAVE to score to tie a game....

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clove, you know, winning solves everything and we are winning. since '04 when the turning point in greek football occurred, we have been spotty at best scratching the bottom of the elite level team group.....beating russia on the world stage was a significant accomplishment, ( i dont think so, when is the last time russia did anything noteworthy?) yet we always are the underdogs and its always considered an upset when we beat a "bigger" team....nobody expects us to win, yet that is changing. Its all perception really.

if you read popular soccer commentators and related media the greek team is starting to get the respect it deserves. but to take the next and more difficult step upwards requires a more radical mental shift, one which i see as very difficult for the team to make.

our style is very very tight...hold hold hold, try and figure out the soft spot of the other team and capitalize on that. We do rise to the occassion (turkey ukraine, russia ploand etc) BUt we dont "go forward, try and score, keep the other team pinned back thereby making it more difficult for them to move forward"....too many example of us just sitting back (sweden, korea, germany) to name a few....sometimes that works (russia, where we scored on their mistake, not an offensive rush)....thats our style. the margin for error is slim....and so long as we play like htat the perception the team will always be that of underdogs because they dont have any glaringly exciting players - its always the "greek spirit, blah blah, very flattering and true, but its only gets you so far)

again winning is the key, regardless of how its done. the more we qualify and move deep into tournaments, the more resepct the team will get....and more importantly the more confident the palyers will get.... but looking at slovakia and simply concluding "we won, so everything is fine" is not the way the team gets better...we were lucky not to eat three that day....

we have to learn to come out and press immediately, control the pace and flow of the game...but we if dont attck, there is nothing really we can "control"....if we defend, we are at teh mercy of the attacking team....i wish for once they would come out and play like they were already behind 2-0.....you know? with a sense of urgency that only happens when they HAVE to score to tie a game....

I agree; especially what you said in regards to Slovakia and the last paragraph.
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just a bit of quick history that will relate back to this topic.

Since around 1855 yes 1855, professional distance runners were all shooting for a sub 4 minute mile. IN 1952 Roger Bannister ran the first sub four minute mile in 3:59.4 seconds. Within the next five years 5 MORE GUYS broke the 4 minute barrier. 100 years for one guy to do it, then 5 years for 5 more guys to do it. Coincidence? Once it became real, possible, actual - then those individuals did not see it as a barrier anymore hence the increase in their performance.

My point: the mental approach is not to be discounted...its hard to quantify because we cant see it, feel it touch it like we can say a fancy dribble, or a powerful shot.

This team, if they are going to accomplish bigger, better things HAS TO walk on the field confident and determined that they can beat anyone - not just a fluky "anything can happen on any given day" type of win, but a deserved win through consistent effort, grit and determination.

The sad part is those qualities, grit etc. we seem to have, and we have a decent technical skill level as well. WHAT WE LACK IS A KILLER INSTINCT - a mental approach that does not mean sit back, get pounded, and take 20 minutes to let the other team know we have an offense also....its the mental approach to game tactics & strategy that hold this team back.

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just a bit of quick history that will relate back to this topic.

Since around 1855 yes 1855, professional distance runners were all shooting for a sub 4 minute mile. IN 1952 Roger Bannister ran the first sub four minute mile in 3:59.4 seconds. Within the next five years 5 MORE GUYS broke the 4 minute barrier. 100 years for one guy to do it, then 5 years for 5 more guys to do it. Coincidence? Once it became real, possible, actual - then those individuals did not see it as a barrier anymore hence the increase in their performance.

My point: the mental approach is not to be discounted...its hard to quantify because we cant see it, feel it touch it like we can say a fancy dribble, or a powerful shot.

This team, if they are going to accomplish bigger, better things HAS TO walk on the field confident and determined that they can beat anyone - not just a fluky "anything can happen on any given day" type of win, but a deserved win through consistent effort, grit and determination.

The sad part is those qualities, grit etc. we seem to have, and we have a decent technical skill level as well. WHAT WE LACK IS A KILLER INSTINCT - a mental approach that does not mean sit back, get pounded, and take 20 minutes to let the other team know we have an offense also....its the mental approach to game tactics & strategy that hold this team back.

It's like the game we beat Nigeria in the World Cup. Once they got the red card, we stopped playing scared. We opened it up, and came back to win. Yes, the extra man helped, but the real difference was confidence.
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yep....i think of the south Korea game...and it turns my stomach...a few different guys, but the tactics were the same...i watched a few clips of the game against turkey (1-0 amanatidis) and we created many chances there before we scored...maybe it was their formation, maybe it was our approach, i dont know...

its a bit unrealistic to expect that type of "helter skelter" we have to tie this game effort for 90 minutes - but we seem to sleep for 20 minutes before we can muster any type of offensive rhythm

You would be interested to know that, and this goes back to the team reflecting the society, their military tactics are the same as well. I spoke with several military people over the years about a whole bunch of things, and apparently their soldiers have orders to allow any invaders on to greek soil, lie in the weeds and absorb whatever effort was involved by the intruders and then counter heavily. Sound familiar? This military strategy is primarily reserved for defending all the islands, particularly those close to Turkey. Bit its interesting to know that they don't advocate preventing the intrusion by offensively repelling. Rather they are to give some window dressing resistance, and when they have the chance to counter from the weeds they deem that more efficient and effective.

So if if if if this is true, then the "mentality" of sitting back is ingrained early on. Not saying this is the ultimate and sole explanation, but it is kind of eerie that they are both very similar tactics.

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yep....i think of the south Korea game...and it turns my stomach...a few different guys, but the tactics were the same...i watched a few clips of the game against turkey (1-0 amanatidis) and we created many chances there before we scored...maybe it was their formation, maybe it was our approach, i dont know...

its a bit unrealistic to expect that type of "helter skelter" we have to tie this game effort for 90 minutes - but we seem to sleep for 20 minutes before we can muster any type of offensive rhythm

You would be interested to know that, and this goes back to the team reflecting the society, their military tactics are the same as well. I spoke with several military people over the years about a whole bunch of things, and apparently their soldiers have orders to allow any invaders on to greek soil, lie in the weeds and absorb whatever effort was involved by the intruders and then counter heavily. Sound familiar? This military strategy is primarily reserved for defending all the islands, particularly those close to Turkey. Bit its interesting to know that they don't advocate preventing the intrusion by offensively repelling. Rather they are to give some window dressing resistance, and when they have the chance to counter from the weeds they deem that more efficient and effective.

So if if if if this is true, then the "mentality" of sitting back is ingrained early on. Not saying this is the ultimate and sole explanation, but it is kind of eerie that they are both very similar tactics.

But they certainly didn't have that attitude in WW2 when they fought the Italians...they prevented them from entering Greece.
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just a bit of quick history that will relate back to this topic.

Since around 1855 yes 1855, professional distance runners were all shooting for a sub 4 minute mile. IN 1952 Roger Bannister ran the first sub four minute mile in 3:59.4 seconds. Within the next five years 5 MORE GUYS broke the 4 minute barrier. 100 years for one guy to do it, then 5 years for 5 more guys to do it. Coincidence? Once it became real, possible, actual - then those individuals did not see it as a barrier anymore hence the increase in their performance.

My point: the mental approach is not to be discounted...its hard to quantify because we cant see it, feel it touch it like we can say a fancy dribble, or a powerful shot.

This team, if they are going to accomplish bigger, better things HAS TO walk on the field confident and determined that they can beat anyone - not just a fluky "anything can happen on any given day" type of win, but a deserved win through consistent effort, grit and determination.

The sad part is those qualities, grit etc. we seem to have, and we have a decent technical skill level as well. WHAT WE LACK IS A KILLER INSTINCT - a mental approach that does not mean sit back, get pounded, and take 20 minutes to let the other team know we have an offense also....its the mental approach to game tactics & strategy that hold this team back.

We're more advanced now w/ our athletes than in 1855 when it comes to nutrition and building up for competition. However I'm not denying the mentality point.

Also I have noticed the team seems to go into these "sleeping" phases during certain games; when they finally score they seem to collectively wake up and go, "oh yeah, we CAN play, just remembered."

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