Panathinaikos - Werder Bremen

[DUDE]

the criticism against the team after this result is unwarranted in my opnion...i have been really busy as of late but lucky i got to sit down and watch this one closely and we did very well..might have been our best perormance of the year...the facts are we have a very capable side, we have alot of quality everywhere but in the defensive centers...we need one or two cbs and the squad will be ery very good...it is displeasing obviousy that when we play very well we tied, fact is we shud have taken all three points but it didnt happen...bottom line, seasons not over, BUT we must build on this performace and up our game, take it to a level were it can and should be...

I didn't see the game but I did see extensive highlights. What did we see that we haven't seen before? Sorry re file, but this isn't a capable side. PAO needed to win to stay in the competition and instead drew with a team that's almost as poor away from home as Greek teams are. Bear in mind that PAO also play in front of a crowd which counts as a 12th man. The fact is, the team can't defend, lacks imagination and has no real quality. The team is comprised of crap, decent and decent players. No one is superb and no one is a match winner. 5th in the league, bottom in the CL having played 3 (2 at home) with the team sitting on 1 point... only in Greece could the fans try and convince themselves that this is a "very capable" team. This is an appalling team and until a further 20m euros are spent on on genuinely top quality players then this team we continue to be poor.

[drakos13]

DUDE i think your overdoing it......we do have some very capable and good players. Our defensive line is simply horrible, a class below and that really doesnt allow for much future or much of a team. Nilsson, Spyropoulos, Vyntra Sariegui... there not going to take us far.

It was something new....PAO turned the game around and then blew it - i thought wed be heading for the 1-1 into 2nd half, most fans did not beleive we were going to turn it around. And the effort was one of the best on the pitch Ive seen in a while.

You cant say PAO didnt deserve to win that game....You cant say PAO's defense isnt a total letdownand dragging the team down to mediocrity either I dont beleive.

Also Dude, PAO is in 5th place because they have 1 game less than the rest...

[DUDE]

DUDE i think your overdoing it......we do have some very capable and good players. Our defensive line is simply horrible, a class below and that really doesnt allow for much future or much of a team. Nilsson, Spyropoulos, Vyntra Sariegui... there not going to take us far.

It was something new....PAO turned the game around and then blew it - i thought wed be heading for the 1-1 into 2nd half, most fans did not beleive we were going to turn it around. And the effort was one of the best on the pitch Ive seen in a while.

You cant say PAO didnt deserve to win that game....You cant say PAO's defense isnt a total letdownand dragging the team down to mediocrity either I dont beleive.

Also Dude, PAO is in 5th place because they have 1 game less than the rest...

I commend the effort. Unlike Olympiakos, this team plays with passion and heart, but the players simply do not have the talent to compete at the highest level. How many players could play (and perform consistently) in the Premiership for a decent level club for instance? Maybe Mattos? Maybe Ivan? who else? Look at other mid-level CL teams, they all have at least 1 or 2 BIG players that could contribute something to the strongest teams in the world (like the English big 4, Barca, Real, and Inter)... Fener have Alex and Guiza, Weder have Diego, Porto have Lucho Gonzalez and Lisandro, Villareal have Santi Cazorla and Capdevilla, etc. These are the sorts of teams that PAO may be competing against over the coming years for that 2nd qualifying spot and in terms of talent PAO is no where near them.

So to answer your question, yes PAO deserved to win the game against Weder, but so what? PAO has one of the best set of fans in the world, the team should be winning EVERY game in front of a crowd like that, just like Oly were unbeaten last year at home against the likes of Real, Weder and Chelsea, and Fener unbeaten against Inter, Chelsea and PSV. Deserving to win a game and actually winning a game is different. The fact is PAO was 2-1 ahead, against a team that can't travel, in front of a wonderful home crowd, and they let it slip. What will happen when we go to the Wederstadion? Will it be like a few years ago when PAO won 2-1 at home and copped 5 away? Sorry, but this squad isn't good enough to compete at this level.

[cyberfish]

I don't mind criticism, but I guess gross generalizations bother me.

What we see more often than not is people watching a game and instead of saying "such and such player did not play well today" they extrapolate "player X is useless".

Extrapolating by analyzing a set of data is generally acceptable. However, stating that the "team is comprised of crap" can't really be taken seriously. Stating something "strongly" does not transcend it to an axiom.

We could say that Diego had a horrible game against Panathinaikos and Mantzios had a great game against Bremen. But it's not true that Mantzios is a "superb game winner". He was for this one game and we "hope" he can continue to be that, but extrapolating that Mantzios is superb (in general) and Diego is crap (in general) is a bit silly.

We have a good idea what some players are capable of doing for Panathinaikos because we have seen them over a period of time. We know the limitations of Vintra and Sariegi. And we know the upper limits of Ivanschitz, Mantzios, Karagounis, and Salpigidis. Some players we don't know what their upper limit is yet. We will know at the end of the season.

On another note, all these years we were happy with our defense and we were complaining about the creative part. This year is the opposite. We can be happy about our offensive work and we can complain about our defense. I hope we find a balance without losing the offensive game.

[DUDE]

I don't mind criticism, but I guess gross generalizations bother me.

What we see more often than not is people watching a game and instead of saying "such and such player did not play well today" they extrapolate "player X is useless".

Extrapolating by analyzing a set of data is generally acceptable. However, stating that the "team is comprised of crap" can't really be taken seriously. Stating something "strongly" does not transcend it to an axiom.

We could say that Diego had a horrible game against Panathinaikos and Mantzios had a great game against Bremen. But it's not true that Mantzios is a "superb game winner". He was for this one game and we "hope" he can continue to be that, but extrapolating that Mantzios is superb (in general) and Diego is crap (in general) is a bit silly.

What if Mantzios is superb in 80% of his games and Diego is poor in 80% of his. Would it not be fair to argue that Diego is poor and Mantzios is superb? In reality we all know it's the other way around... Mantzios performs well in 1 or 2 games in every 10 and Diego performs well in 7 or 8 of 10.

We have a good idea what some players are capable of doing for Panathinaikos because we have seen them over a period of time. We know the limitations of Vintra and Sariegi. And we know the upper limits of Ivanschitz, Mantzios, Karagounis, and Salpigidis.

Unfortunately the upper limits of these players are on a par with the lower limits of PAO's contenders. Against Inter, PAO's players pushed their upper limits while Inter's players (with the exception of Ibra in the first half) were touching their lower limits... PAO lost 0-2. Against the Germans, PAO's players played well according to many here (hence, pushing the upper limits) while being spurred on by a crowd creating an atmosphere which also pushed the upper limits. On the contrary, Weder's players like Diego did not have a good game and did not reach anywhere near his upper limits. The game finished 2-2. Against AEK both sets of players performed poorly, PAO lost 2-1.

Examples such as these have been evident over the years. Why? Because the squad simply isn't good enough.

On another note, all these years we were happy with our defense and we were complaining about the creative part. This year is the opposite. We can be happy about our offensive work and we can complain about our defense. I hope we find a balance without losing the offensive game.

I disagree I'm afraid. There's nothing to be excited about re the attacking element of the team. They are still as unimaginative as always going forward but this time they can't defend either. The team is already effectively out of the CL and sitting in 5th in the weakest SL of all time, I think that says it all.

[cyberfish]

Ok, thanks DUDE. I see the light now. Panathinaikos totally sucks. There is no hope in supporting this sorry team. All the players are horrible, the coach is clueless, management is made of involutes. I can't believe that I have been supporting such a pathetic club for over fourty years. Thanks man, I feel better now that I see the truth. I don't understand why they would even take the field and have the nerve of playing football against the superior forces of the universe. Oh, and it feels so good to generalize so grossly :LOL:

[DUDE]

Ok, thanks DUDE. I see the light now. Panathinaikos totally sucks. There is no hope in supporting this sorry team. All the players are horrible, the coach is clueless, management is made of involutes. I can't believe that I have been supporting such a pathetic club for over fourty years. Thanks man, I feel better now that I see the truth. I don't understand why they would even take the field and have the nerve of playing football against the superior forces of the universe. Oh, and it feels so good to generalize so grossly :LOL:

Ok, maybe I'm underestimating this omadara. If we continue to keep the faith in this talented squad then maybe we'll be celebrating a European trophy before too long.

[cyberfish]

That's the spirit :tup:

[DUDE]

Ok, thanks DUDE. I see the light now. Panathinaikos totally sucks... All the players are horrible, the coach is clueless, management is made of involutes... I don't understand why they would even take the field and have the nerve of playing football against the superior forces of the universe. Oh, and it feels so good to generalize so grossly :LOL:

:whistle:

[NikosVazelas]

Personally i liek all of you. DUDE, cyber and the rest.

however i disagree with all of you.

No way PAO or OLY could ever be competitive enough to win a european championship DUDE. Stop with that stuff.

Ill take for example Espagnol from two years ago. they made it to the uefa cup final. with valverde as manager.

Sure they didnt have big names like ''Salpi'' or '' Diogo'' or ''Dudu'' or ''Tziolis'' and somehow they made it to the uefa finals. :P

truth of the matter is this. No matter what.

Even with 6 or 7 stars in ur team... the fact remains that with 4 or 5 greek players in the team the talent level remains poor. those 4 or 5 greek players have lesser talent then the 4 or 5 average spanish players on most spanish teams liek espagnol for example. Just because we dont know them, doesnt mean they are good.

Do you think anyone outside of greece knows who Avraam, Pantos, Tziolis or Vyntra are? Seriously?

How can you expect a team liek oly or pao to offer anythign exciting to watch?

Another thing is teams liek pao and oly play mostly against closed opposition. Then they go out to europe and are forced to be the ones playign back. They dont practice that system enough in greece, and when they do, liek peseiro did, then we all bitch at how we are not controlling the game and playign defensive football. How do you expect us to win in europe... by opening up the machine liek oly used to do in Athens, and then go out to europe and get raped?

Markarian had it right. Playign 5-3-2 90 % of the time. change it up for about 40 minutes every game try and score some goals but mainly stay in that formation.

Look at Lemonis. He played hyper defensive in Europe last season. The team did well. Sure they were lucky in some games but they did well.

And then Cockalis gets rid of him because '' Den Vlepei theamatiko podosfairo''.

..

The whoel logic doesnt make sense. You want to be succesful in Europe.

Play 5-3-2 and pray you can get a goal or two on counters.

As for Oly having good players and Pao not havign any...

Its all relative. Even with the Lua Luas and galettis and Belluschis, Oly lost last years championship to AEK and that kologero Rivaldo.

Sometimes, a team without the big names can do just as much damage.

As for Pao winning championships... who cares anymore... SL has become a joke in terms of legality and legitimacy. If Pao win, ill be happy first but then ill question if it was legit or not. And that. by no means is a way to think of a championship team. Watch the games, enjoy what you can from them and move on.

As for the iraklis game today, I enjoyed watchign rukavinas two great through balls and Ninis play his heart out and get an assist in the 30 minutes he played. Now im gonna go eat a steak.

Later skaters.

[Clover22]

Thats very uuuh...uplifting, Nikos.

[NikosVazelas]

The truth often hurts.. but it is my opinion. You are free to do as you please.