CL Qualification

[warzycha]

I think the play off system for CL and UEFA spots does have some merits but what I would like to see is this extended to 6 teams and includes the champions. The winners of the Greek League would still be crowned champions but they would have to compete for the right to compete in the champions league. Also Aris and Panionios never stood any chance to qualify as the points system was against them.

However if they had a top 6 with everyone starting even then I would propose the following (using this season as example):

1. Top 2 teams have bye in 1st Round

2. Team 3 plays Team 6 (Panathinaikos vs Larissa) - Home and Away

3. Team 4 plays Team 5 (Aris Salonika vs Panionios) - Home and Away

4. The losers play for UEFA Cup spots

5. The winner of 3 vs 6 (say Panathinaikos) would play AEK.

6. The winner of 4 vs 5 (say Aris) would play Olympiakos.

7. The winners of (Panathinaikos vs AEK) would play winners of (Olympiakos vs Aris) would qualify for CL and losers in UEFA Cup spots.

This system may lift the level of football in Greece where teams can see that even if they don't win the League they have a shot at playing in Europe and may motivate them to play for this position.

Just a thought and idea but I would like to hear your thoughts as to whether this is a good idea or not.

[cyberfish]

Nice thought Warzycha! I think your plan would indeed help Greek football, and it solves many problems that plagued this year's playoffs.

First of all, this whole idea with the points assessed based on position was way too complecated for anyone to care for. Your system is position-based and it makes more sense to everyone without pulling out calculators.

I thought the idea that the champion is decided based on one set of criteria (points accumulated through a long season), and the other positions based on other criteria does not seem fair, and actually subtracts from the interest.

I like your knock-out set up where the games will get progressively more intense with the theoretically stronger teams setting up meeting dates late in the season that would culminate in a big final game (although I am afraid that passions will run so high, violence might become an issue).

You did not say but I assume you mean the last game to be one-game final, but I would not mind a two-game matchup.

I would add to that that the same kind of set-up would work nicely for the bottom teams as well. Maybe have playoffs that include the bottom four teams from Superleague and the two first teams from the second division. Maybe have the bottom six games on Saturday, and the top positions play on Sundays.

This way 10 of the 16 Superleague teams will be involved in intense games at the end of the season.

[warzycha]

Thanks Cyberfish

Yes the final would be over 2 leags instead of one. I would also agree that this system could work for promotion and relegation.

The concept of a "Super League" means super not mediocre. Therefore if you want the right to be in the "Super League" it is not a right, you must prove your worth.

Therefore I would suggest the following:

1. 3 teams is too many to be relagated.

2. The bottom 2 in Super League (Kalamaria and Verria) would meet the top 4 in the 2nd Division (say Panserraikos, Ioannina, Thrasyfilis and Ionikos)

3. Similar paly off system to Super League.

This would motivate teams to compete for their right to be their.

[PAO_OR_DEATH]

that would make it 8 teams re manga, if you count that the bottom 2 want to stay in the top flight of hellenic football, i think any other system besides the one we witnesed this year would be better, warzycha you have a good idea.

How would one let epo know about this??

[Irlandos]

Playoffs and Greece DON'T go together! :tdown:

The lads deserve a break after 30 games, no second chances for anyone!

[warzycha]

Irlandos

Perhaps play offs and Greece don't mix. Perhaps the League is too big, not just Greece but everywhere in Europe.

In theory AEK, Oly and Pana have nothing to fear but why not have a strong league where teams like Aris, PAOK, Larissa, Xanthi, Iraklis, OFI and the rest have something to aim for.

The Iraklis team of the late 70's and 80's could beat and challenge the likes of the top 3.

To me, to call the Greek League a Super League is a joke when you have 3 teams relegated. To earn your right from the 2nd Division to Super League you have to show you can compete. There maybe season where teams from 2nd Division are not promoted, so be it. Greece needs to create a competitive edge and to make its league stronger.

As for the right to compete for CL, even England there are 4 clear cut teams. In reality what chance does teams like Portsmouth, Man City, Spurs, Blackburn etc have. They do not have the wealth to maitain a challenge over 38 games .

[Irlandos]

Playoffs do not make a Super League. Our league was much better 4-5 years ago when we went down to 14 teams. It should've been kept that way.

[warzycha]

Irlandos

I would even go so far to say 10 teams for Greece (play each other 4 times). But if the EPO maintains 16 teams then 3 relegated each year is too many.

[Irlandos]

Warzycha, when I was young we had an A' Ethniki of 16 teams with two teams being relegated. Having three go down makes it more interesting and I prefer it that way however, I'm not sure if three coming up from B' is a good idea.

I'd like to see 14 teams with two going down and no playoffs unless there is a tie on points and goal differential.

[MadBoy13]

i would love to see 20 teams...

[athinaios]

I don't like the playoffs, but I'd like 20 teams. I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to a long season and the team that finishes with the most points (on the pitch! ;) ) should win the title. Anyway, I think we won't have playoffs next season.

If you want to make it more competitive, this is not the way to do it. Raise the quality of the league! And find ways to promote the sport locally. In the US there are several ways leagues stay more competitive because they want to make sure the smaller teams (those in smaller markets) get more support, money & players.

A more competitive league is good for everyone and for Greece.

[warzycha]

athinaios

I agree with your comments however if the EPO insist on playing these play then I cannot see the point of Aris and Panionios playing being 6 points adrift before playing a game.

If the Greek League was extended to 20 teams then there needs to be some input into other teams other than the Big 3. I would not mind seeing 20 teams provided it is not a picnic for the top 3.

I would love to see a championship where in 10 years there were 10 different champs. I bit like th French League before Lyon won 6 in a row. Every year there was a different club winning.

The question is what ideas are there regarding how to make the Greek League competitive. Salary caps, more investment into smaller clubs etc. How do you see this being achieved?

[DUDE]

athinaios

I agree with your comments however if the EPO insist on playing these play then I cannot see the point of Aris and Panionios playing being 6 points adrift before playing a game.

If the Greek League was extended to 20 teams then there needs to be some input into other teams other than the Big 3. I would not mind seeing 20 teams provided it is not a picnic for the top 3.

I would love to see a championship where in 10 years there were 10 different champs. I bit like th French League before Lyon won 6 in a row. Every year there was a different club winning.

The question is what ideas are there regarding how to make the Greek League competitive. Salary caps, more investment into smaller clubs etc. How do you see this being achieved?

I see a more competitive league being acheived by making the league smaller. Having both Ergotelis and OFI in the top flight for example isn't such a good thing because the small support they each have is split. The rivalry between them is a bit too intense for them to merge (although that's a good idea where possible) but let's say OFI are the only Cretan team in the top flight, most young kids will begin to follow them instead of going to the lower leagues to watch Ergotelis. So teams should build their support first and foremost. Start campaigns locally, i.e. fund local theatre productions, give free tickets away to school kids, have football summer schools, etc. In other words get the locals more involved. That will bring in revenue and because the league will be smaller there will be fewer clubs that fighting for players.

So instead of OFI having 3 very good players, Levadiako having 2, Ergotelis having 3... they may all end up going to the same club, i.e. OFI, and they'll have 8 good players. This will occur because the good players' options will be narrowed (because they won't drop down a division) and the teams like OFI will have increased their spending power and will be able to bring in those extra players.

So in summary, the first step is to make the SL smaller. This will also give a bigger headache to the big teams, instead of Olympiakos, for example, playing Larissa twice and Levadiako twice, they'll play Larissa 4 times which means Olympiakos (and the other big 2) will have to strengthen too to maintain consistency.

P.S. Salary caps would destroy our league, it's hard enough attracting big players as it is, telling them they can't be given over a certain amount is sure to deter them.

[athinaios]

There has to be an serious analysis of the conditions present in Greece today and the projections. Things will NEVER go back to the old days when entertainment was provided by relatively few outlets. This analysis has to be honest, though I doubt it anyone will do such an analysis, because the unpleasant facts will come out and then hard decisions will have to be made.

The league has to be more competitive=interesting. Having one team (even if it's you team) win 11 in 12 years is NOT good. Then there is NO credibility. I find it amazing and disturbing that a modern euro country with professional leagues and it doesn't have clear rules, objective enforcement, and quality!!! Unless you solve this problem, nothing will change.

No to salary caps in Greece only.

Size doesn't matter if same conditions prevail. I don't see why a leage of 16 or 12 or 8 would be more competitive. I like 20 teams so more smaller teams participate in the big division (if they can afford it! are there numbers?) W: is it HARDER for the top 3 to have another 12 teams in the league? ;)

D:

"Start campaigns locally, i.e. fund local theatre productions, give free tickets away to school kids, have football summer schools, etc. In other words get the locals more involved"

Try to do this under the present climate..... I know several people (some in here) don't want to see a civilized atmosphere... They think it's good for the sport. I say it's disastrous. You can't take your family to a game where physical harm may result! I wouldn't want to subject my son or my daughter or my wife to chants about raping mothers, sisters, etc..., and any other offensive language you can imagine.... :tdown:

If this sport remains under the present conditions, it will die. Most modern people don't want to elevate supporting a football team into a religion, and make it an IDENTITY issue whereas you HATE the others and are prone to violence! In my view, this is so primitive and not fit for a country that claims 3,000 years of civilization!

[NYPAO13]

the league should be 12 teams & no playoffs & THE WINNER BEING CROWNED AS CHAMPION ON THE PITCH, NOT IN SOME KAFENIO

[drakos13]

There has to be an serious analysis of the conditions present in Greece today and the projections. Things will NEVER go back to the old days when entertainment was provided by relatively few outlets. This analysis has to be honest, though I doubt it anyone will do such an analysis, because the unpleasant facts will come out and then hard decisions will have to be made.

The league has to be more competitive=interesting. Having one team (even if it's you team) win 11 in 12 years is NOT good. Then there is NO credibility. I find it amazing and disturbing that a modern euro country with professional leagues and it doesn't have clear rules, objective enforcement, and quality!!! Unless you solve this problem, nothing will change.

No to salary caps in Greece only.

Size doesn't matter if same conditions prevail. I don't see why a leage of 16 or 12 or 8 would be more competitive. I like 20 teams so more smaller teams participate in the big division (if they can afford it! are there numbers?) W: is it HARDER for the top 3 to have another 12 teams in the league? ;)

D:

Try to do this under the present climate..... I know several people (some in here) don't want to see a civilized atmosphere... They think it's good for the sport. I say it's disastrous. You can't take your family to a game where physical harm may result! I wouldn't want to subject my son or my daughter or my wife to chants about raping mothers, sisters, etc..., and any other offensive language you can imagine.... :tdown:

If this sport remains under the present conditions, it will die. Most modern people don't want to elevate supporting a football team into a religion, and make it an IDENTITY issue whereas you HATE the others and are prone to violence! In my view, this is so primitive and not fit for a country that claims 3,000 years of civilization!

No we beleive differnetly than you.

I beleive the stadium is basically a mans atmosphere. Traditionally sports are, since antiquity. Its for us, to bond, to support, for joy, for sadness, to swear, and sometimes let it out. I beleive we all have some aggression inside, and things we need to get out of our systems. You may think its stupid, but I can tell you I was a teenager more recently than you ;) These aggressions are well channeled into sports. Weather its supporting sports, playing sports, it helps.

Id rather have kids getting rowdy at games than having them get involved in crack, guns and all sorts of the crap that American kids get involved in. Sometimes its nice to let out the verbal abuse.

Family's.....

Why the hell has the whole world have to be "family appropriate? Families can go to picnics, families can go see dinsney movie, families SHOULD STAY AT HOME!

Guess what - youre not supposed to take your baby out of the house and everywhere you go! Your toddler -ISNT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO GO EVERYWHERE........and while he grows up these new expereinces will be more valuable to them anyways! I cant stand these terrible mothers who take their kids everywhere...some even take them into the cinema and they dont shut up!!!

Im all for families, but some things for families some things not.

Sports is for not. A father can bring his son together if he likes, but honestly who cares whats being said in the stands? Kids end up fine, suprising result. I seen kids with there dads swear....at games......whatever! Nothing different or bad is going to become of it. Worst case is he uses the word again, and then you punish him teaching him about the when the words are inapropriate, so a lesson learned early. Whatever.

Let me guess if I had kids Id understand? Yeah right!

Truth is swearing makes no difference around children. Its very a stupid myth . I have been swearing since I was 8. Literally, 8 . I was too scared to say the words when i was 6-7 because I was in a British school and they encouraged tellling on you. :LOL: typical brits... I made sure to remember my age since then, because swearing doesnt actually hurt anybody. You say a bad word - and nothing happens because its a word !

You just teach your kids HOW/WHEN to swear......I quickly learned that theres appropritate places to swear and innapropriate places......not in front of parents of formal situations, but amongs friends and other "crude" things its completly fine. Bust this stupid myth and phobia of 'bad words' already... :tdown:

All kids will turn into people and swear eventually. Not really important.

[NYPAO13]

amen

[athinaios]

Drakos, you're entitled to your own opinion. I think you're wrong though on several counts. You can choose to behave in the way you seem fit and find venues to express yourself during bonding, etc.

If you think this sport will survie because a few fanatics want to bond by leveling the worse cursing, setting fires, destroying stuff, beating up people as a way to "bond" then I don't think this is the direction society is moving to.

The Aztecs as a male bonding thing were kicking around the field the chopped heads of "fans" of opposing tribes ;) Then the Romans had their Collisium.. :box: :huh:

And, if you think the guys who want such an atmosphere are the ones with the money base to support the team, again, you're wrong.

Fewer and fewer people see football as an identity suit that needs to be protected by violence and all sorts of extremism. In order to survive as a successful franchise in the modern world you have to appeal to a wider base, be more marketable. You may not like this, because you want of a more primitive atmosphere (of fanaticism or whatever) the fact is that without money AND wide support this sport will fail.

Id rather have kids getting rowdy at games than having them get involved in crack, guns and all sorts of the crap that American kids get involved in. Sometimes its nice to let out the verbal abuse. ..

It's not an "either or" situation... as for the niceness of verbal abuse :whistle:

[athinaios]

Anyway, do you guys know when the drawing will take place?

The other concern is that several of our guys will be part of the NT for the euro08 so PAO will start way too early this season for the qualifiers. Players need time off for their bodies to recover.

Knock on wood, but I hope we don't pay dearly with several injuries throughout the upcoming season. I hope our trainers (and the new coach) know their job well ;)

[drakos13]

Drakos, you're entitled to your own opinion. I think you're wrong though on several counts. You can choose to behave in the way you seem fit and find venues to express yourself during bonding, etc.

If you think this sport will survie because a few fanatics want to bond by leveling the worse cursing, setting fires, destroying stuff, beating up people as a way to "bond" then I don't think this is the direction society is moving to.

The Aztecs as a male bonding thing were kicking around the field the chopped heads of "fans" of opposing tribes ;) Then the Romans had their Collisium.. :box: :huh:

And, if you think the guys who want such an atmosphere are the ones with the money base to support the team, again, you're wrong.

Fewer and fewer people see football as an identity suit that needs to be protected by violence and all sorts of extremism. In order to survive as a successful franchise in the modern world you have to appeal to a wider base, be more marketable. You may not like this, because you want of a more primitive atmosphere (of fanaticism or whatever) the fact is that without money AND wide support this sport will fail.

Id rather have kids getting rowdy at games than having them get involved in crack, guns and all sorts of the crap that American kids get involved in. Sometimes its nice to let out the verbal abuse. ..

It's not an "either or" situation... as for the niceness of verbal abuse :whistle:

I'm talking only about swearing and getting 'rowdy'

not violence and hitting people and throwing coins and flares and stabbing people. Thats different. OBVIOUSLY its different. Youre totally changing the context I feel of what i meant by bonding. I meant its a mlae bonding atmosphere, and its not a place for families. Some things just arent for families, and then people who do eventually get families get so pissed that they cant do absolutley every thing they used to do and demand everything be family friendly. Thats stupid. Family activities are for families. Football is an ancient tradition of men in sporting events - weather its Mayas, Olympics, Chariot Racing in Constantinople (where they even burnt down the Agia Sophia becuase the Emperor cheated the race) etc.... its never been a family place, and I cant stand "family" sporting events. Youll see how awful they are. Go to America. Full of jackass families expecting you to behave specially for their little dumb child who doesnt understand what the hell hes watching.

Im talking about swearing and making a rowdy atmosphere. Rowdy means pseudo-violent (where i come to know the term) where nothing gets hurt.

As for waning support theory....

well this year its exactly how you wanted it.....and no support at the stadium...

[NikosVazelas]

the draw for paos first round opponent is june 28th and the next round is after the first leg.... i can look for dates later.. but its late june¸for the first one.

[PAO_OR_DEATH]

There has to be an serious analysis of the conditions present in Greece today and the projections. Things will NEVER go back to the old days when entertainment was provided by relatively few outlets. This analysis has to be honest, though I doubt it anyone will do such an analysis, because the unpleasant facts will come out and then hard decisions will have to be made.

The league has to be more competitive=interesting. Having one team (even if it's you team) win 11 in 12 years is NOT good. Then there is NO credibility. I find it amazing and disturbing that a modern euro country with professional leagues and it doesn't have clear rules, objective enforcement, and quality!!! Unless you solve this problem, nothing will change.

No to salary caps in Greece only.

Size doesn't matter if same conditions prevail. I don't see why a leage of 16 or 12 or 8 would be more competitive. I like 20 teams so more smaller teams participate in the big division (if they can afford it! are there numbers?) W: is it HARDER for the top 3 to have another 12 teams in the league? ;)

D:

Try to do this under the present climate..... I know several people (some in here) don't want to see a civilized atmosphere... They think it's good for the sport. I say it's disastrous. You can't take your family to a game where physical harm may result! I wouldn't want to subject my son or my daughter or my wife to chants about raping mothers, sisters, etc..., and any other offensive language you can imagine.... :tdown:

If this sport remains under the present conditions, it will die. Most modern people don't want to elevate supporting a football team into a religion, and make it an IDENTITY issue whereas you HATE the others and are prone to violence! In my view, this is so primitive and not fit for a country that claims 3,000 years of civilization!

I think that a smaller and a more intense league would be better for Greece.

I seriously believe that "crazy" and "offensive" crowds are a good thing, HAVE ANY OF YOU BEEN TO AN A-LEAGUE game?? That is the most lifeless and PC crowd in world football -

trust me as a saeason ticket holder to the phoenix you DO NOT WANT this, the phoenix crowds were the best in the A-league but still way!!!!!!!! to PC, it takes away all the passion, fire and emotion from fans.

Also I think that press "ultras" get is seriously over-rated, you can take you children to games just stand/sit on the other side of the stadium.

it seems all the aek fans are a bit bitter about the playoff system haha just kidding

[athinaios]

...trust me as a saeason ticket holder to the phoenix you DO NOT WANT this, the phoenix crowds were the best in the A-league but still way!!!!!!!! to PC, it takes away all the passion, fire and emotion from fans.

Also I think that press "ultras" get is seriously over-rated, you can take you children to games just stand/sit on the other side of the stadium.

it seems all the aek fans are a bit bitter about the playoff system haha just kidding

I did not say there was no tradeoff. Of course there's much more lively atmosphere with rabid fans tearing it up. And, the team responds better within all this!

Now, there many instances that is advisable that only men should attend certain games. The question is whether they're many enough of them to keep supporting the sport? I'm not sure that there are.

The other point I was making was that society's changed. Many more entertainment venues, and the kids have many more opportunities to do stuff. I experienced the time when things were changing. But, I remember that not long ago, kids lived and breathed from Sunday to Sunday ;) Being a fan wasn't enough, you WERE totally engaged in this sport.... [you know what I mean]. Do you think that this is true today, with the Greek kids for example???

This sport will have to be marketable to a wider range of people in a given society... if it is to remain the "king of sports". And, you can't be king without the masses B)