athinaios Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 This is what a former Panatha player said. He's absolutely right! " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberfish Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 I don't buy the superiority of Greek players and coaches, or that they are a better fit for Greek teams. There are very few greek players that have the skill and the attitude to play at a high level consistently. I don' mean to imply that every foreign player that comes to Greece is better either. Players like Seric, Andric, Nilsson, Biscan, are on par with most Greek talent, but players like Bovio, Ivanschitz, Morris, Victor, Gonzales, are hard to find in the Greek talent pool. Are we saying that our team is better when Darlas and Vintra play instead of Nilsson and Seric? Or is there a great right and left fullback out there, who is Greek and could immediately contribute? This team has plenty of talent (with the exception of a couple of dead wood pieces) to win convicingly every game. Good players are good players no matter what their nationality. Leadership from the front office and coaching staff establishes a culture of winning, and that's what we need along with vigorous training and game preparation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 fuk that s%$#! i agree We should have a starting 11 that more than 50% are greeks...fuk this foreign s%$#!, they come here for the moeny and leave without giving a fuk about pao or wat it means to be part pf this club! gamo to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifilli Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalaitzispanathinaikos Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 I don't care obout all the foreign players... but we must not forget that we are PANATHINAIKOS!!! we're a legend...everyone knows and respects PAO. We are one of the greatest clubs.But we should be one of the best clubs. The directory should not only think of the money. But think about the players and how they perform.... Why did they sell Basinas,Kyrgiakos,Karagounis,Gekas??That are true players of Panathinaikos. My favorite is Pap, and I don't want him to leave ever!!!! So come on M alekes , don't you only think about the money!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athinaios Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 I've studied organizations and I can tell you that the internal culture is EXTREMELY important. That's why I think there's something fundamentally wrong with this organization. Secondly, INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY is also VERY important. This means that the best strategy is to gradually bring in new bodies so they learn and absorb and understand what it is to be a player at PAO for example! We've lost that. Just some food for thought.... PS>OK, PAO is known in Europe, but not really to many players who come to our team. They don't understand and they don't care about the past. I really have nothing against foreign players. I like multiculturalism and diversity. But, given the 2 reasons I mentioned above, PAO ownership/management have done a very poor job in picking the right people and educating them about what it is to be in the PAO family... Not to mention that the club doesn't treat with respect those players that have proven their worth by contributing to the team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberfish Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Athinaios, well said (college coursework at pay here?). This institutional memory that was built over 90 years we have lost and we need to re-capture. BTW I would love to see more Greek players on our roster too, but where is all the available talent? Vintra, Goumas, Darlas, Tziolis, Papadopoulos, Salpigidis all Greeks, all contributed to yesterday's game. I count 5.5 (Darlas came in as substitute). That's about half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUDE Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 fuk that s%$#! i agree We should have a starting 11 that more than 50% are greeks...fuk this foreign s%$#!, they come here for the moeny and leave without giving a fuk about pao or wat it means to be part pf this club! gamo to.... I agree 100% ofcourse there are exceptions but those foreigners have to be in a minority to develop that love. The players have to hear chants like "PAO! THRISKIA! THYRA 13!" And get goosebumps, not just think "ooohhh thats noisy!" We need that Greek backbone in every team! Maximum of 5 foreigners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loup Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Correct You must wonder this about foreign players - why do they come to PAO?????? Why Greece? In this open era where teams can have as many foreigners as they want - what kind of players are going to come to a 3rd rate league? The ones that can't go to a better league. OK some come to play in the CL - I will buy that - but most???? because they can't go anywhere better. So what? We are stuck with what nobody in the top clubs/l;eagues in the world don't want. EXCEPT FOR THE GREEK PLAYERS - who have grown iup and wanst to play in Greece - simple look at how we have fallen since things have opend up - look at where the Greek players have gone - whored out to different countires - and look at our success (lack of success) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalaitzispanathinaikos Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 now let's face it...there were times PAO could face clubs like Manchester United,(I tought that was in 2002)draw 1 - 1, and clubs like juventus (think about that time they won 1 - 0).But Panathinaikos had a dream team: Seitaridis,Karagounis,... and I think the Dream Team of Panathinaikos(with all the players they had) will be: ---------------------------Nikopolidis------------------------------ -----Seitaridis------Kyrgiakos---Goumas©------Morris------- ---Konstantinou-----Karagounis----Basinas-----Gonzalez----- ----------------Warzycha------------Papadopoulos-------------- on the bench: Olisadebe,Salpigidis,Seric,Biscan,Chalkias,Charalambidis,Vintra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 http://www.contra.gr/Soccer/Hellas/Superle...kos/129428.html This article really nails it it takes every point and arguement and really speaks the truth especially Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GS1905 Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 now let's face it...there were times PAO could face clubs like Manchester United,(I tought that was in 2002)draw 1 - 1, and clubs like juventus (think about that time they won 1 - 0).But Panathinaikos had a dream team: Seitaridis,Karagounis,... and I think the Dream Team of Panathinaikos(with all the players they had) will be: ---------------------------Nikopolidis------------------------------ -----Seitaridis------Kyrgiakos---Goumas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifilli Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 PAO will miss Basina, Karagouni for years to come. What is more frustrating than Tzigger's kavouroxeri, is his ignorance in handling people and situations. He has no people skills, and no football knowledge. Many of the expensive acquisitions made, were busts. Usually he lets go of diamonds and buys rust. Lyberopoulos, Seitaridis, Karagounis, Basinas, Kyrgiakos, Nikopolidis, Konstantinou, even Fyssas, Epale, Kolka, Munch. None of these above have been replaced successfully. Gonzo, Papa, Salpi, Ivan, and the Greek youngsters are PAOs new hope. Where is Leontiou ? PEACE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iliasdim Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 The fact is that I want, at last, to see Pao play good football....I care for this more than getting a good result and bitching all the time about the football I watch! I agree with most of you that the passion comes from the greeks...but this is not the only factor! One of the most impressive teams of this season is Aris...how many of them are greeks?1 or 2? They may not have the best results but nobody can argue that they play well! Those of you that had the chance to enjoy Kyrasta's team, remember that it was something like last year's plan...Back then it was young Karagounis,Basinas,Lyberopoulos,goumas. Last year it was Tziolis, Darlas,Mantzios,Leontiou. Which one of you can compare the quality of those groups(say Tziolis-Basinas, Karagounis-Leontiou, goumas-darlas, Lyberopoulos-Mantzios)...And I'm not talking about how the formers have developed.I'm talking about that particular year when they first played! But besides the talent, back then, they had models like Saravakos(I don't remember if he was in Aek then but at least he was fresh in their minds),Warzycha etc. that would like to reach some day and fought for that! Who can be such a model in today's Panathinaikos? There is nobody with such a personality in order for the youngers (or everyone) to look up to him! Not in the field, nor in the bench, nowehere! (I remember Gonzales bitching Darlas last year in the game vs Ionikos because the kid threw out the ball in order for a Ioniko's player to get medical treatment!And I constantly see our players arguing with each other when the game is not going well! Signs that the players are in a mess!). There is such difference between then and now. Those players were the core of the team that reached the final of euro cup (elpidwn). Of course later they were the core of the one that won the euro! Today's elpidwn(with darlas,tziolis,leontiou) is a mess! H andrwn,epishs! Which brings a conclusion that there is a lack of greek talents and players generally. Which greek player is better than Ivansits? Bovio? (Maybe Stoltidis and Katsouranis but they are both not wasted) Morris? romero? (lagos?----maybe yes,maybe no but not wasted either) gonzales? the problem are not the foreigners but the constant mess the team is in the last 3 years..either this is the management, or the coaches,or the situation in the dressing rooms, or the player's relationship with each other, or the pressure, or anything! I don't know if those guys feel thay are a team, but they certainly don't look like one. 3 solutions available: 1)Either we bring here such a coach (if there is one) that could bring confidence and vision to the players, learning them how they could finally be a team for once! 2)Either tzigger calls back all those players that let go and wish they could make a second new start for the team! 3)Either he brings a "psyxara" like Saravakos, Domazos, Totis around the players...Men that, at least all the greeks including the ones "pou tin exoune dei arketa", would listen to and make them feel the greatness of Pao! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 and I think the Dream Team of Panathinaikos(with all the players they had) will be: ---------------------------Nikopolidis------------------------------ -----Seitaridis------Kyrgiakos---Goumas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUDE Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 The fact is that I want, at last, to see Pao play good football....I care for this more than getting a good result and bitching all the time about the football I watch! I agree with most of you that the passion comes from the greeks...but this is not the only factor! One of the most impressive teams of this season is Aris...how many of them are greeks?1 or 2? They may not have the best results but nobody can argue that they play well! Those of you that had the chance to enjoy Kyrasta's team, remember that it was something like last year's plan...Back then it was young Karagounis,Basinas,Lyberopoulos,goumas. Last year it was Tziolis, Darlas,Mantzios,Leontiou. Which one of you can compare the quality of those groups(say Tziolis-Basinas, Karagounis-Leontiou, goumas-darlas, Lyberopoulos-Mantzios)...And I'm not talking about how the formers have developed.I'm talking about that particular year when they first played! But besides the talent, back then, they had models like Saravakos(I don't remember if he was in Aek then but at least he was fresh in their minds),Warzycha etc. that would like to reach some day and fought for that! Who can be such a model in today's Panathinaikos? There is nobody with such a personality in order for the youngers (or everyone) to look up to him! Not in the field, nor in the bench, nowehere! (I remember Gonzales bitching Darlas last year in the game vs Ionikos because the kid threw out the ball in order for a Ioniko's player to get medical treatment!And I constantly see our players arguing with each other when the game is not going well! Signs that the players are in a mess!). There is such difference between then and now. Those players were the core of the team that reached the final of euro cup (elpidwn). Of course later they were the core of the one that won the euro! Today's elpidwn(with darlas,tziolis,leontiou) is a mess! H andrwn,epishs! Which brings a conclusion that there is a lack of greek talents and players generally. Which greek player is better than Ivansits? Bovio? (Maybe Stoltidis and Katsouranis but they are both not wasted) Morris? romero? (lagos?----maybe yes,maybe no but not wasted either) gonzales? the problem are not the foreigners but the constant mess the team is in the last 3 years..either this is the management, or the coaches,or the situation in the dressing rooms, or the player's relationship with each other, or the pressure, or anything! I don't know if those guys feel thay are a team, but they certainly don't look like one. 3 solutions available: 1)Either we bring here such a coach (if there is one) that could bring confidence and vision to the players, learning them how they could finally be a team for once! 2)Either tzigger calls back all those players that let go and wish they could make a second new start for the team! 3)Either he brings a "psyxara" like Saravakos, Domazos, Totis around the players...Men that, at least all the greeks including the ones "pou tin exoune dei arketa", would listen to and make them feel the greatness of Pao! Overall I must say this is an excellent post! I must say however, i strongly disagree with the performance vs result. The result is the most important thing! But generally you make some excellent points. A new coach is needed who can inspire the players, or atleast a disciplinarian with a legend like Domazos or Saravakos as his right hand man. That means that the core has to be Greek though! Vintra, Darlas, Salpi, Papa, & Goumas are all good enough. Tziolis & Leontiou need time as does Mantzios. With them as your core and players like Romero, Gonzalez (when fit) and Ivanschitz around them the team could be a real force within 2 years. The team has denigrated so much that its time to look long term now because there is no quick fix! My advice is get Bajevic or Anastasiadis in! Forget a big name coach, get the team on the right track then look for a big name coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakos13 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 now let's face it...there were times PAO could face clubs like Manchester United,(I tought that was in 2002)draw 1 - 1, and clubs like juventus (think about that time they won 1 - 0).But Panathinaikos had a dream team: Seitaridis,Karagounis,... and I think the Dream Team of Panathinaikos(with all the players they had) will be: ---------------------------Nikopolidis------------------------------ -----Seitaridis------Kyrgiakos---Goumas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athinaios Posted September 20, 2006 Author Share Posted September 20, 2006 Guys, there is a strong relationship between performance and results! A team that knows how to play well is a strong team and usually gets things done. It has lasting quality. There's a misconception regarding nice play vs. result. Yes, you may get a favorable result by scrappy play, but scrappy teams have big problems in developing their game. We've seen this over and over again. We got the good result against Aegaleo (and many fans believed we had a great team) but the game showed that we couldn't play a good game. Eventually not being able to put 1+1 together comes back to haunt you! And, it has repeatedly! After all, what is this performance thingy???? Players that can pass, cross, exchange the ball a few times, and apply an organized play/game plan!!!!! Isn't this how effective football is played?!!!! :tup: Sure, you can get a good result by "giourousi football" and individual brilliant play (when you're lucky, like with Oli when we won the last title) but there is a reason why successful teams that get results are also capable of producing a nice performance! So please, don't give me this crap about we only care for the results... The results (overall) don't come from bad performances! PS>I don't want to go into why people watch a football game.... :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOLLYWOOD Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 and I think the Dream Team of Panathinaikos(with all the players they had) will be: ---------------------------Nikopolidis------------------------------ -----Seitaridis------Kyrgiakos---Goumas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aekrossoponti Posted September 21, 2006 Share Posted September 21, 2006 The fact is that I want, at last, to see Pao play good football....I care for this more than getting a good result and bitching all the time about the football I watch!well pao was more of a results-oriented team rather than theama. at least hat was when they were most effective in europe. very disciplined and well organized. the blueprint for our ethnikis success. 3 solutions available: 1)Either we bring here such a coach (if there is one) that could bring confidence and vision to the players, learning them how they could finally be a team for once! ! yes but who??? 2)Either tzigger calls back all those players that let go and wish they could make a second new start for the team! never going to happen! 3)Either he brings a "psyxara" like Saravakos, Domazos, Totis around the players...Men that, at least all the greeks including the ones "pou tin exoune dei arketa", would listen to and make them feel the greatness of Pao! yes but who??? warzycha or henriksen are the only ones that comes to mind. pao is still paying for chasing away basinas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahmazis11 Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 although we need more than 50% greeks, foreigners have talent aswell we just have to buy the right ones. Last season we bought atleast 10 players, how many were no use to us. theodoridis, conceicao, wooter etc. its not just about having greeks its bout having greeks who can play with each other like the team that won the league in 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adonis Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 theodoridis hardly got a chance id actually like to see more of him the shame was we loaned bidis to paok in the deal for salpi - he was someone we should of kept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipapa Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 I don't think that Greek players can be the ultimate solution for either Pao or any other Greek team. I mean, I like to see more than 50% to be Greek but, face the truth, Greece is NOT a talent powerhouse. There are very very few new talents every year and, even worse, they are ridiculously overpriced. Look at Osfp, what talents he created (or at least transferred at premature age) all those years. Castillo is the only one that comes to mind. It's sad for a 10 year champion. Pao's great team was the result of creating or acquiring talented young Greek players under the supervision of a patient coach (Kyrastas). That coach and that team should have been treated better i.e. better salaries (they were laughable), more patience, more spirit of understanding during bad times (eg after the Rizoupoli game). Instead of that, management kept the salaries low, brought in over payed foreign players (reason for internal strife) and showed hostility to the Greek players on every opportunity. The people who manage Pao don't love this team. They simply think Pao is their hereditary feud. Take Jigger for example, a playboy who never worked as a successful businessman. They need to go asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athinaios Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 I'm afraid a solution out of this mess is one that, in the short term, the big 3 will not like! The title is decided in the derbies among the 3. I'm sure the data will back me up on this. The lesser teams can't take that many points away from the big 3 and that's bad for Greek football. There's no good competition. If, when, a lesser team has a talented player, he leaves to go to the top 3. There's no future playing for others as they can't really compete for titles! I'm sure the money is also alocated vastly to the big 3. So, what I'm proposing is like the draft we have in the NBA, American Football, etc. Or, that the so-called Superleague finds ways to bring up the strength of the lesser teams. As long as there's no good competition no Greek team will do well in euro play. Since as of today no greek team can have the budget of other euro clubs, the best way is to prepare better for euro by being stronger because it can a stronger domestic competition. Oh, and btw, this will make our games more interesting. I don't know about you, I like to watch interesting games where this sport is played well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar7 Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 wouldnt a draft have to be sanctioned by fifa or uefa since no other european league has this... & we all now that Greece inventing something new wont happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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