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guys, in a perfect world, we would have our stadium in goudi with the flexibility we have at elliniko, but who said life is perfect? ;)

there are problems with everything and we have to realize the diffuculties of each plan, they r trying to weigh their options out knowning each one has its problem

also another reason elliniko might be preferred by the gov't or epo is because they would be able to use that in the EURO for their bid, i think they need aroudn 40,000 seats where in goudi you can not do that

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Well, I am a kifissiotis and although I don;t live in athens now I had no problems going to Leoforos. If I had to go to Elliniko the trip itself wouldn't be a problem either. I would go as far as Voula and Vari and even further. the distance is not a problem.

The problem is history. PAO is an Athens club and all PAO fans from wherever they are must accept that. I love PAO because of its history and because its an Athens club. Nevermind that I am an Athenian and am proud of the team from my city because i understand that there are thousands of PAO fans who are not from athens and don;t feel the same pride about athens but still they love PAO regardless. We are proud of PAO fans like that.

PAO is an Athens club and must stay within the municipality.

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However I don't agree with many of you that say, it doesn't matter that the ground will be a bit further out of Athens... Did anyone ever consider why Arsenal plays in east London, why Stamford Bridge is near Fulham and Chelsea or why Wembley is within London? Have you ever heard before Barcelona building a stadium OUTSIDE of Barca, or bayern playing to a stadium outside of Munich?

the stadium of munich is located in the former olympic park. now the allianz arena will also be outside of munich. most of the other stadiums you mention are way older than leoforos is and they managed it to adjust them to their needs. leoforos anyways wasnt sure from the beginning if it would be built in athens.

the problem in athens is, that (unfortunately) every free square meter has already been used to build something on it. there isnt even a park in the whole city. it would be nice and i would be happy for pao if you would be able to build the stadium in athens. but for me it looks impossible.

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Do you know what I do not get with all you Pao fanatics from Athens?

Well I do not live in Athens and that is maybe the reason that I am totally wrong, but I honestly do not undersand why everybody hates the Helinico offer while it has all the potenial to become a great stadium (like Athinaios said). Look if Goudi or Votaniko had the same potentials then fine but they certainly don't.

For instance I hear all the Pao funs are braging about stuff like a 45 minute ride to the stadium :blink: . Honestly are you that sicked for the team that you would prefer it to be 20 minutes less for the ride :blink:. If you whant everything to be next to your home then foget the game and whatch it on TV. I mean I do not know how much of Pao funs are there around Goudi when they can't fill up the Leoforo stadium. And we are talking that ATHENS of 4.000.000 people !!!!. Does Pao funs exist only in the Goudi and Leoforo area from the entire city ? :blink: ?. Please don't want everything for yourshelvs, when Pao funs like me go to see the team from outside of Athens with way much longer drives !!!

In any case my choise if I were to decide would be OAKA or Helinoko. There are a whole lot Pao funs out there every were to go and see the team. If the there are Pao funs that love their team and they are not willing to sacrifice some of their time to see their team then ###### it say home to see the replays to...

Look it is just my opinion but the way you all athenians talk makes I feel like I should not be a Pao fun because my house is not lockated near the Leoforo district, and is something that really drives me mad when sometimes I WISH I lived as close as 3 hours to the stadium and I swear to God I woud never miss a game.

Almamatter, you seem to forget that a serious ivestment doesn't look to capture the one-off fan who will visit Athens once a year and go to a PAO game.... The investment should be targeted to the PAO BASE fan, and they will be the ones supprting the team in the entire season!!! And they live near Abelokipi!!!

Also the investment must consider the inflows on ANY business day other than the day of the match... Do you honsetly feel that a PAO supporter from Abelokipi or Goudi or Zografou will take the bus to go one hour away to have a coffe at Helliniko? Building the stadium at Goudi means that most PAO fans who live nearby (and they are the majority) will support and contribute to the investment every day.... Having Basketball, football, volleyball and the PAO fan base close, then it will be the best solution...

And to be honest why should we compromise with the bloody government? Why wasn't anyone concerned with the build up of Karaiskaki? Why wasn't the mayor of Pireaus concearned about Parks and all other bullshit?

Why does PAO have to give solution to the Athens Park problem? (And don't expect that Goudi will become a park even if PAO moves to Helliniko)...

Living outside of Greece doesn't give you the entire idea of the problem... PAOs stadium is based on politician talks and I refuse to be dragged out of my history home, my base, my traditions into another bloody area that has nothing to do with Athens and PAO, just because some politicians want to...

I say lets take Karaiskaki to Helliniko and lets build the new Leoforos in Peraus!!!! :P :box:

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Is Pao Stadium gonna be in the bid for Euro 2012? If it is then it's gonna be a 50K+ stadium and that means that it is imposible to build it in Goudi.

I am not a fan of Elliniko but I am gonna follow PAO anywhere they play. I live in the West Suburbs of Athens and for me it would be as much hustle to get to Goudi as it would be to get to Elliniko.

Wherever the new stadium is, I just hope it is around 45-50K with cheap tickets.

All big teams in europe have 40-50K Stadiums.

Arsenal are going away from a 35K for a 60+ (in London of 10M)

Liverpool have plans for a 55K (in a city 1,5 Million)

Shakhtyor 50K (in Donetsk of 500K)

Partizan 45K (in Beograd of 1,5)

Real Sociedad 42.5K (in San Sebastian of 70K!!!)

If you take into account that Athens is Around 4M (with the Suburbs) And that Pao is the Biggest Athens team we need at least a 50K Stadium.

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I think 50 would be too much bearing in mind that we usually tend to be 12-15000 (even back at OAKA)....

But yes the PAO stadium is said to be for a bid of the 2012 euro... This is the only reason they are actually thinking of building a stadium....

But the bottom line is... Are they building the stadium for having a serious bid for the 2012, or are they actually doing it for PAOs welfare...

I just hope that Tzigger pressures them, and not doing it THEIR way!!! ;)

Screw Helliniko and Screw Votaniko and Eleona!!!! GOUDI or NOTHING!!!! :angry:

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I don't think we'll have a problem filling up a 50K Stadium. (provided that tickets are priced reasonably) Papou do not forget the European nights at OAKA with 76000 or the days of Zajec, Rocha with 50000 against Levadiakos and Doxa Drama.

What I mean to say is that (hopefully) when we build a big stadium the philosophy of the transfers will change so that the stadium fills up.

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50thousand isnt realistic.....we dont fill Leoforos every game why would we fill 50 thousand?

yes the traditional fan base is deep in athens but dont forget the fanbase is way expanded now so it doesnt matter where the stadium is if its outside...if it means a full green complex in elliniko its better...but i do like the idea of the stadium being in the city and having the bars, kafenio and grills outside....it wouldnt be the same without them.....

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It dosen't matter the reasons why the stadium is built, whether its for the Euro 2012 bid or for pao's sake, as long as its built. The reason why Leoforos dosen't get filled is because it is such a poor stadium. Its an embarrestment for pao, such a major European team, to not have a stadium fit to meet UEFA's requirements. The new stadium will have attendances 40,000 minimum, and will be a big money earner for us.

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Guys relax Ofcourse PAO can fill a 50k stadium. Doyou remember who many were watching Gavro games in Rizoupoli? They were 3rd in ticket averages After PAO, PAOK. A new stadium will bring in the crouds for sure.

DO NOT FORGET THAT WE DID NOT SIGN ANY STAR PLAYER. (Doesn't anybody remember attendances at OAKA when Zajec was playing?)

I am For a biger than 30K stadium (would prefer 50K) because we all know what happens in Europe or in Matches Against Gavro.

Don't tell me that if KAraiskaki was 50K it wouldn't fill?


Edited by m_kafes
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M Kafe, Karaiskai WOULD fill if it was bigger but the gey-roi have a different mentality than us... The problem of Leoforos is not the capacity nor the poor condition of the stadium nor the ticket prices...

You are right on attendances at OAKA on big European nights, but in normal league games (apart from derbies) we were never more than 15.000... ;)

This is the mentality of the PAO fans unfortunately... If its too warm we will sweat so we don't go to the game, if its too cold we will catch a flu and we don't go to the game, if it is raining we will get wet and we don't go...

We need the perfect weather conditions, the perfect players, the perfect stadium and most importantly the perfect OPPONENT... If we play against Juventus yes we may fill a 50,000 stadium at Helliniko but in normal league matches I don't see more than 3.000 going... Especially if the ground is at Helliniko!!! ;)

By the way latest news from contra.gr....

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3000 is ridiculous man.....you really think that the fans wont travel an extra 20 minutes by metro to see a game??? dont forget Glyfada and Argiroupoli have big fan clubs too.....we travel all the way to Athens for games its not that big a deal......

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You will see... The people you see going at Leoforos are mostly the people who live nearby... And its not just the distance but people will also refuse to go due to morality reasons... :P

Can't you remember OAKA... We were 3.000 - 5.000 at OAKA which is fairly close to Abelokipi and to other PAO fan bases such as Kifissia, Maroussi, Psychico, Holargo, Halandri etc etc....

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first off pappou im not as old as you.... i dont remember OAKA very well to be honest i never went to a PAO game there - one of the reasons ironically for the same reason you complain about the stadium being in elliniko- too far (but this was before the metro system, i was also very young)

i dont think people will refuse to go for anyreason. we have the best metro in europe and its very cheap and you dont deal with bullshit like parking. so what 20 mins more to get there.....i still dont see the big problem. an extra 20 mins isnt enough to cure the sickness for PAO we have.......

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I have to agree with Drako on this. We will have travel as we have always travelled. (Don't kid yourself pappou, not all PAO fans in Leoforo are from Ampelokipi or Voreia Proasteia) It's just that you are not used to travelling for a match. Well I guess you'll have to get used to it like the rest of us.

The way you are arguing this (mentality reasons) you make PAO fans look bad. I do not agree that we have an inferior mentality to other fans. Do not forget that all these years without a championhip people were really supportive and following the team everywhere. This year people are frustrated (Seitaridis, Kyriakos out - Shity Cros in) Tell me who am I supposed to go root for?

As for this years ticket pricing have a look at what is going on with the family stand they are trying to establish and you will understand what's going on. (i.e. If a father wanted to see PAO with his son from a decent seat-not 13,14-he would have to pay around 80 to 100 Euros, now he only needs half of it. The family stand has been full for a couple of games now since it started.

I am sure VArdinogiannis will do his research before he commits to such an investment. He will make sure that he will be able to get the attendances he wants.

|I am sure the tickets will be cheaper because he will be able to get our money in so many other ways, I am sure he will bring in some quality players so that we fill the stadium. Have a look at the progress of Sporting Lisbon and their attendances this season or Benfica who fill a 65K stadium.

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i'm fascinated by all this talk.... i live in NY and the jets are now playing in NJ and want to build a stadium in Manhattan with no space for parking... Anyway, my point is that all this what if, maybe, we'll see, you're wrong, i'm right, etc.etc.... Any serious business knows EXACTLY who goes where, buys what, for what reasons, who attends, under what conditions, level of fan commitment, where they come from, whether someone would travel an extra 20 minutes to save $20 (on ticket price), and so forth....

I mean, com'on, it's not a rush decision... we've been talking about a new stadium for many, many years! If we don't know by now, we'll never know, and we're just playing roulette!

Geesh men, sorry, but isn't PAO a modern company with professional people to market the team, do research into its "customer base"?

Amazing, f^^king amazing!

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Pappou let me also add this.

Can you imagine having a bigger and better stadium than Osfp?

for ex: 55.000 AGAINST 33.000 :D

Think of the Gauro faces when something like that happen :LOL:

Now everywhere I speak with a Gauro, all they talk is that our team's home looks like a stable, while their's is modern art...

Get again I will tell you this truth and think from a gauro point of view. Everybody is saying that the new stadium is perfect but 33.000? ;) Karaiskaki used to hold 45.000 regularly every game, even at the stone years of Osfp. Why the heck the new stadum is so much smaller :unsure:

The real deal is that the plans to make the stadium in Kartaiskaki where for at least 40.000 but due to limeted space and cheaper matterials and quicker time to finish the works and quicker profits for kokali all of them resulted in a such small stadium for the team that undeniably has the most funs in Greece.

Trust me if Pao bulits a new stadium in Elliniko you are going to see so many funs in the games just out of their love for the team and I bet you will never miss a game to :tup:

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this is true. we will see a lot of fans if we get a new stadium.

look at olympiakos at rizoupoli,they could not fill that tiny stadium last year but when it came to karaiskaki they had good attendance of coarse that is until they got punished that is.

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