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2022 WCQ: Sweden - Greece (12 Oct. 2021, 21:45 EEST - Friends Arena, Solna)


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Guys regardless of whether Samaris has a club or not he is easily the most accomplished and best Greek midfielder, has played in the strongest league against the best players. And held his own. Sure let him get a club but get him back he's light years ahead of Zeca for starters. Siopis too is rubbish.

Correct me if I'm /wrong but Fortounis couldn't get a game even when he wasn't injured?

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2 hours ago, Greek Style said:

Guys regardless of whether Samaris has a club or not he is easily the most accomplished and best Greek midfielder, has played in the strongest league against the best players. And held his own. Sure let him get a club but get him back he's light years ahead of Zeca for starters. Siopis too is rubbish.

Correct me if I'm /wrong but Fortounis couldn't get a game even when he wasn't injured?

I’m super confused here. Most accomplished midfielder? According to what exactly? Just genuinely curious as to how you’re basing this statement. 
 

I know you’re not saying the Portuguese league is the best league in the world so you must be talking about his champions league games. And based off record, last time he was in a champions league game was against Basel in a 0-2 loss after playing 70 min in 2017. 

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11 hours ago, Greek Style said:

Guys regardless of whether Samaris has a club or not he is easily the most accomplished and best Greek midfielder, has played in the strongest league against the best players. And held his own. Sure let him get a club but get him back he's light years ahead of Zeca for starters. Siopis too is rubbish.

Correct me if I'm /wrong but Fortounis couldn't get a game even when he wasn't injured?

He didn’t hold his own for the Ethniki in his latter games mate, he was horrible and we actually lost games because the guy couldn’t make accurate passes, he along with some others had the chance to really do something special after 2014 and it was an appalling failure.

His game deteriorated big time sadly 

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17 hours ago, Greek Style said:

Guys regardless of whether Samaris has a club or not he is easily the most accomplished and best Greek midfielder, has played in the strongest league against the best players. And held his own. Sure let him get a club but get him back he's light years ahead of Zeca for starters. Siopis too is rubbish.

Correct me if I'm /wrong but Fortounis couldn't get a game even when he wasn't injured?

He may have been promising at one time, but Samaris has regressed. He's not young anymore and hasn't featured for a club in years.

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I was actually a fan of Samaris but over the years he has been disappointing, especially for the Ethniki. I don’t know if there is a major gap between him and Bouchalakis. Like have we improved with Bouchalakis over him? Hard to tell in some cases yes but most cases no I think. CM I is still a problem area in my opinion. I look at someone like Alexandropoulos who’s got it all and who I think is better than both but not given a chance even in friendlies.

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On 10/15/2021 at 4:06 PM, Dean97 said:

I was actually a fan of Samaris but over the years he has been disappointing, especially for the Ethniki. I don’t know if there is a major gap between him and Bouchalakis. Like have we improved with Bouchalakis over him? Hard to tell in some cases yes but most cases no I think. CM I is still a problem area in my opinion. I look at someone like Alexandropoulos who’s got it all and who I think is better than both but not given a chance even in friendlies.

Alexandropoulos will be great in the NT midfield for years. He had a solid game in PAO win today. Why didn't JVS give him some game time in the last 2 matches?

Dean do you think JVS should stay on after the last 2 qualifiers? I think he should go unless he somehow gets us to the playoff. I think we have reached our ceiling with him. I had no problem when EPO hired him and he has gotten us some good results vs Sweden, Spain and Belgium but its those dropped points vs Georgia and Kosovo that are going to bite us in the arse. I thought he would learn from the NL campaign and that we would get the max points against them. Also I am disappointed with his handling of Manolas, Siovas and Sokratis. Manolas for sure had to be on the NT going into qualifying if he was in the lineup I doubt we drop points vs the minnows and he would have helped us greatly in Sweden but JVS decides to throw Mavrias in the game vs Georgia and he cost us big time! Those 4 points we dropped are going to loom large at the end of this qualification. Very frustrating that we will most likely miss another major tournament..

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10 hours ago, Ellada2004 said:

Alexandropoulos will be great in the NT midfield for years. He had a solid game in PAO win today. Why didn't JVS give him some game time in the last 2 matches?

Dean do you think JVS should stay on after the last 2 qualifiers? I think he should go unless he somehow gets us to the playoff. I think we have reached our ceiling with him. I had no problem when EPO hired him and he has gotten us some good results vs Sweden, Spain and Belgium but its those dropped points vs Georgia and Kosovo that are going to bite us in the arse. I thought he would learn from the NL campaign and that we would get the max points against them. Also I am disappointed with his handling of Manolas, Siovas and Sokratis. Manolas for sure had to be on the NT going into qualifying if he was in the lineup I doubt we drop points vs the minnows and he would have helped us greatly in Sweden but JVS decides to throw Mavrias in the game vs Georgia and he cost us big time! Those 4 points we dropped are going to loom large at the end of this qualification. Very frustrating that we will most likely miss another major tournament..

I agree with everything your saying. In my opinion he should leave. Again I appreciate him bringing in the youth but his stubbornness of playing Bakasetas all the time has hurt us. He is a guy who has almost every time killed our attacks, it’s not good enough. Those points we dropped against Georgia and especially Kosovo tells me we are not qualifying. He hasn’t learned from the nations league and he has been a big disappointment as coach. We need someone who understands Greek football and the Greek players. Someone who knows what works and what doesn’t. 

Regarding Alexandropoulos, I always praise him, he’s the total package. I’m an Olympiakos fan and I see a lot of talent in him.

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16 hours ago, Dean97 said:

I agree with everything your saying. In my opinion he should leave. Again I appreciate him bringing in the youth but his stubbornness of playing Bakasetas all the time has hurt us. He is a guy who has almost every time killed our attacks, it’s not good enough. Those points we dropped against Georgia and especially Kosovo tells me we are not qualifying. He hasn’t learned from the nations league and he has been a big disappointment as coach. We need someone who understands Greek football and the Greek players. Someone who knows what works and what doesn’t. 

Regarding Alexandropoulos, I always praise him, he’s the total package. I’m an Olympiakos fan and I see a lot of talent in him.

True JVS is stubborn he has tried to build the NT around Bakasetas? He is a decent player and has given us some good performances recently especially in the win against Sweden but he is not one of our star players going now into Euro 2024 qualification. He has a place on the team as a substitute but he is not one of our core players. 
As for JVS if he goes I wish him well he has gotten us some good results and at times we have played some attractive attacking football. I would say give Donis a chance he knows Greek football and I think would command respect from the players. Also he may be able to talk to our banned players from the squad and bring some of them back. JVS totally botched that whole situation especially sending Siovas packing over nothing. Especially since aside from finishing goals our other main problem has been keeping clean sheets this campaign with just one vs Georgia. Just another strike against JVS.

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I'm torn again if i want JVS gone or not.  We've changed coaches from 2014 and have not seen any good results even when we had manolas, Soctrates, Fortounis and so on so i don't know anymore if changing and building a new system is the answer again or does that start us back at zero again and all the closeness and family like atmosphere that JVS has build especially introducing the young guys will be a waste. I'm not saying i want to keep him I just honestly don't know at this point anymore.

Bakasetas starting every game is a mistake i don't mind if he's a bench player but not our starter, What he did with Siovas by completely cutting him off was also a mistake and he put his pride ahead of the better of the team. Not reaching out to Manolas like he told him he would at the beginning and then didn't bother calling him up or having an open dialogue with him until the world cup when we draw Spain was also a bad move and ruined the chance of one of our best players playing with the NT. I feel like we have made progress but i feel like we are now going to hit a wall i don't know if we can keep progressing anymore under JVS but i could be wrong I think the next two games might help us make a decision. I completely see why people are torn on if he should stay or go. We've had Ranieri, Makaarian, Skibe so if we do change coaches then they have to be Greek in my opinion as having foreign coach has not worked for us since Santos. 

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8 hours ago, J1078 said:

I'm torn again if i want JVS gone or not.  We've changed coaches from 2014 and have not seen any good results even when we had manolas, Soctrates, Fortounis and so on so i don't know anymore if changing and building a new system is the answer again or does that start us back at zero again and all the closeness and family like atmosphere that JVS has build especially introducing the young guys will be a waste. I'm not saying i want to keep him I just honestly don't know at this point anymore.

Bakasetas starting every game is a mistake i don't mind if he's a bench player but not our starter, What he did with Siovas by completely cutting him off was also a mistake and he put his pride ahead of the better of the team. Not reaching out to Manolas like he told him he would at the beginning and then didn't bother calling him up or having an open dialogue with him until the world cup when we draw Spain was also a bad move and ruined the chance of one of our best players playing with the NT. I feel like we have made progress but i feel like we are now going to hit a wall i don't know if we can keep progressing anymore under JVS but i could be wrong I think the next two games might help us make a decision. I completely see why people are torn on if he should stay or go. We've had Ranieri, Makaarian, Skibe so if we do change coaches then they have to be Greek in my opinion as having foreign coach has not worked for us since Santos. 

It is tough for that reason that we want stability for the NT and changing coaches all the time is not beneficial. I miss the days when we had Otto & Santos two coaches in a 13 year period. Looking back I think EPO should have kept Skibbe for the 2020 Euro campaign as bringing in Ange was a total mess. He only lasted for 4 matches and all the trouble that started between him and Sokratis and with Manolas kept those players away for this campaign.

I said at the start of this campaign that JVS had to at least get the Ethniki to a playoff spot. I thought we could take 4 out of 6 points from Sweden and that would give us the edge. I thought JVS had learned from his mistakes in NL and would have the NT come out and put away Georgia & Kosovo for max points but unfortunately I was wrong. Greece got 3pts but we were unlucky not to get something last game and the defensive blunders cost us. As many of us here have said Manolas and Siovas even Sokratis back there and we most likely do not eat those silly goals. JVS could have used them in the Kosovo match were the equalized again of a garbage goal.  For these reasons I think I would go in a new direction as we cant afford to miss out on Euro 2024. Greece have to qualify!!

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I'd like to put in my 2 cents here: JVS failed to achieve his goal of qualifying for Quatar WC and that could very likely cost him his job. He made many mistakes and made many head-scratching decisions along the way but I think many here have forgotten what went down in regards to the Manolas-Papastathopoulos-Siovas clicka. JVS came out and told Manolas and Papastathopoulos that he would not be calling them up for the nations league so that he can try some new blood (not as some punishment for their ridiculous behavior against Ange which would have been warranted) but would be counting on them for the WC qualifiers. He called on them for the qualifiers and they refused....they refused....how can anyone say that that's on JVS? Siovas came out and crapped all over his CB partner and criticized JVS for not calling up Manolas and Papastathopoulos and he was forced to drop him....again how can anyone say that JVS mishandled that situation? What other action could he have taken and not lost control of the team? In both instances it was the actions and decisions of these particular players that left them off the team and not some grudge or evil plan of the coach to handicap the NT.

I think that tactically JVS leaves much to be desired but you can't blame him when the players can't put the ball into the net....that's our skill level like it or not. There are always players coming up giving us hope for a better future (Douvikas, Tzolis, Alexandropoulos, etc) and at least with JVS they are getting their chances. Personally I never cared if a coach had an inexplicable favorite (Rehagel and Vryza or Santos and Katsouranis, etc) as long as they get the results. JVS has took over a team that had gotten used to losing to Armenia and the Faroes and other minnows. I don't think any coach could walk into the NT and turn the team around totally but JVS has brought it around part of the way. 

Does he deserve more time? It's not so clear as NT football is all about results....if you invest time in playing attractive football it comes at the expense of results, but the NT has played some of its most attractive football ever under JVS and at the same time we've dropped points in what would have been easy 1 nil wins in the Santos/Rehagel eras. I guess it all depends on what criteria you are judging him. I personally don't believe changing the coach is going to magically make the NT score more goals or prevent defensive mistakes like those against Sweden, but if the young players are given the chance to get better and are offered the opportunities to play it will be a lot more advantageous to the NT rather than arguing in favor of players who obviously don't want to be there.

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I don't remember Sokratis/Manolas refusing to be called up. He said he would call them but I don't remember them saying that he did.  Our CBs for the most part (not counting the last game) have played well.  Not sure what his obsession of picking 4/5 LBs is but we are playing attacking football.  Even Bakasetas has played well the last two games (never thought I'd write that). I am torn between giving him a solid shot bc I do think this group of players like him and play hard for him.

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9 hours ago, Brklyngrk said:

I don't remember Sokratis/Manolas refusing to be called up. He said he would call them but I don't remember them saying that he did.  Our CBs for the most part (not counting the last game) have played well.  Not sure what his obsession of picking 4/5 LBs is but we are playing attacking football.  Even Bakasetas has played well the last two games (never thought I'd write that). I am torn between giving him a solid shot bc I do think this group of players like him and play hard for him.

It was in all the papers....some with a pro Mano/Papa slant, others more objective:

https://www.newsbeast.gr/sports/arthro/7189280/ektos-ethnikis-me-diki-tous-apofasi-papastathopoulos-kai-manolas

https://www.metrosport.gr/ethesan-eayton-ektos-ethnikis-manolas-kai-papastathopoylos-357919

https://www.alphafreepress.gr/2021/03/13/athlitismos/papastathopoulos-manolas-ethniki-ektos-me-diki-tis-apofasi/

https://www.sport24.gr/opinions/pantelis-diamantopoylos/manolas-papastathopoylos-gyrise-to-mpifteki.9173547.html

Thing is JVS has created a unity within the team all the while trying out different players (can't say I agree with all of his picks) while also having to deal with deliberate attempts by certain players to destabilize the NT. I personally see Mano/Papa/Siovas as players who, for whatever reason, don't want to commit to the team anymore and that's fine. We lost a lot more games with them in the lineup than we have without them so they aren't the magical solution. I think the dream of playing more modern football is starting to show but there will be plenty of growing pains until it bears fruit.

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On 10/15/2021 at 1:56 PM, PaokCT said:

I’m super confused here. Most accomplished midfielder? According to what exactly? Just genuinely curious as to how you’re basing this statement. 
 

I know you’re not saying the Portuguese league is the best league in the world so you must be talking about his champions league games. And based off record, last time he was in a champions league game was against Basel in a 0-2 loss after playing 70 min in 2017. 

To be fair which Greek player has played at a better club/league in this group of players?

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10 hours ago, DiogenesLight said:

It was in all the papers....some with a pro Mano/Papa slant, others more objective:

https://www.newsbeast.gr/sports/arthro/7189280/ektos-ethnikis-me-diki-tous-apofasi-papastathopoulos-kai-manolas

https://www.metrosport.gr/ethesan-eayton-ektos-ethnikis-manolas-kai-papastathopoylos-357919

https://www.alphafreepress.gr/2021/03/13/athlitismos/papastathopoulos-manolas-ethniki-ektos-me-diki-tis-apofasi/

https://www.sport24.gr/opinions/pantelis-diamantopoylos/manolas-papastathopoylos-gyrise-to-mpifteki.9173547.html

Thing is JVS has created a unity within the team all the while trying out different players (can't say I agree with all of his picks) while also having to deal with deliberate attempts by certain players to destabilize the NT. I personally see Mano/Papa/Siovas as players who, for whatever reason, don't want to commit to the team anymore and that's fine. We lost a lot more games with them in the lineup than we have without them so they aren't the magical solution. I think the dream of playing more modern football is starting to show but there will be plenty of growing pains until it bears fruit.

If they refused, then you can't rely on them.  I have in general, been happy with our CBs (outside of the last game). If we could only finish...

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48 minutes ago, Brklyngrk said:

If they refused, then you can't rely on them.  I have in general, been happy with our CBs (outside of the last game). If we could only finish...

The whole Siovas thing was overblown by JVS he simply said in regards to Svarnas at the time that he would benefit from having experienced & high end players like Manolas & Sokratis to guide him. Guys who have been playing in CL football and at World Cups and European Championships. I don’t see what was so bad about Siovas comment? 

Our CBs have been good for most games but we saw the silly mistakes you can’t make at Wcup qualifying especially vs a good side like Sweden and it just took all the steam out of the Ethniki. As for the 1-1 game vs Georgia JVS can not put Mavrias on the field a guy who doesn’t even get game time in the Cypriot league and we saw how he got exposed on the goal. The game in Kosovo at the end we conceded a silly goal but I really won’t put all blame on the defenders but JVS should have gone out and attacked Kosovo instead of sitting back and inviting pressure for the whole 2nd half and they got a goal in the 92nd. That result was totally on him. Greece should have come out in the 2nd half up 1 nil and put the game out of reach but his stupid subs and tactics cost us 2 points there that we desperately needed. 

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17 hours ago, Ellada2004 said:

The whole Siovas thing was overblown by JVS he simply said in regards to Svarnas at the time that he would benefit from having experienced & high end players like Manolas & Sokratis to guide him. Guys who have been playing in CL football and at World Cups and European Championships. I don’t see what was so bad about Siovas comment? 

Our CBs have been good for most games but we saw the silly mistakes you can’t make at Wcup qualifying especially vs a good side like Sweden and it just took all the steam out of the Ethniki. As for the 1-1 game vs Georgia JVS can not put Mavrias on the field a guy who doesn’t even get game time in the Cypriot league and we saw how he got exposed on the goal. The game in Kosovo at the end we conceded a silly goal but I really won’t put all blame on the defenders but JVS should have gone out and attacked Kosovo instead of sitting back and inviting pressure for the whole 2nd half and they got a goal in the 92nd. That result was totally on him. Greece should have come out in the 2nd half up 1 nil and put the game out of reach but his stupid subs and tactics cost us 2 points there that we desperately needed. 

I agree. Siovas didn’t really say anything bad. He just pointed out the obvious. If we are going to be playing LBs at CB then I’m all for Siovas to come back. Mavropanos has been scoring lately and it seems he should be a CM. The level from Manolas and Sokratis to our other CBs is really low. We might aswell try and convince them to come back because I don’t really see a CB or 2 that is playing at the highest level. Apart from Mavropanos who might get a position change. You never know. 

The reason why we’ve been conceding is because our CBs are not truly CBs. Think about it. Hatzidiakos started off as a midfielder in his early days. Tzavellas was a LB. These are the guys we are playing there. They’ve done well but they aren’t going to get us over the line. We might aswell bring Manolas and Sokratis back to guide a Mavropanos or Hatzidiakos…

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8 hours ago, Dean97 said:

I agree. Siovas didn’t really say anything bad. He just pointed out the obvious. If we are going to be playing LBs at CB then I’m all for Siovas to come back. Mavropanos has been scoring lately and it seems he should be a CM. The level from Manolas and Sokratis to our other CBs is really low. We might aswell try and convince them to come back because I don’t really see a CB or 2 that is playing at the highest level. Apart from Mavropanos who might get a position change. You never know. 

The reason why we’ve been conceding is because our CBs are not truly CBs. Think about it. Hatzidiakos started off as a midfielder in his early days. Tzavellas was a LB. These are the guys we are playing there. They’ve done well but they aren’t going to get us over the line. We might aswell bring Manolas and Sokratis back to guide a Mavropanos or Hatzidiakos…

I have to admit Tzavellas has been terrific during this campaign. He has busted his arse off and made some crucial challenges. Hatzidiakos has been disappointing with his play and decision making. When will JVS ever address or issues at RB? why won’t he give Kotsiras a shot? Anyways I hope we play well against a Spain & finish off with a win vs Kosovo. I am praying to God we can somehow squeeze into the playoff spot. 

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Im with you guys on the Siovas incident, he wasn’t been malicious at all and just how some experience can help guys like Svarnas (who let’s face it, could def learn a thing or two but should never have been there also)

Siopis was simply dumped after that, JVS could have spoken with him instead of just dumping him, that’s what good people management is

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