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SL–R25: PAOK - AEK (11 Mar 18, 19:30 EET)


Blackhawk

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Even though I have the AEK crest as my avatar, I've honestly grown so disgusted with this league that I barely follow it anymore. "They did this", "they did that", "they didn't get punished that one time they did the same thing years ago", "it's so unfair", everyone's against us", etc. It's enough to make you say "xiestous olous"! 

Although some might disagree, I doubt we'll get real change/reforms unless the clubs are banned from Europe for a few years. Take away the cash-cow/prize that is the CL and see how quickly people from all sides come to the table. A few lifetime bans to clean out the crooks also wouldn't hurt...

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FIFA can go F*** themselves. The most crooked organizations of them all. All of a sudden they discovered problems in Greek football.

Just announce the GREXIT and so everyone can be happy.

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Action is what we all want but not selected action or when it conveniently suits certain teams over others.

Hopefully FIFA/UEFA or any other eternal body can also investigate the p*****es and m*****es that have plagued Greek football for decades including all the favourable calls and decisions that have gone in favour of ALL teams

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The verdict is very harsh. I can understand some items of the punishment, but what has next season to do with this match this season? have they heard about "ne bis in idem"? Anyway, we will appeal.

Ανακοινώθηκε πριν από λίγο η εξοντωτική τιμωρία του ΠΑΟΚ, σε σχέση με τα όσα έγιναν στο ντέρμπι με την ΑΕΚ στην Τούμπα.

Αφού πρώτα «έδωσαν» το παιχνίδι στην ΑΕΚ στα χαρτιά με 0-3, στον Δικέφαλο επιβλήθηκε ποινή -3 βαθμών από το τρέχον πρωτάθλημα και άλλοι -2 από τη σεζόν 2018-2019, ενώ πολύ βαριά ήταν και η ποινή για τον Ιβάν Σαββίδη με απαγόρευση εισόδου στα γήπεδα για 3 χρόνια! Τιμωρία ανακοινώθηκε και για την Τούμπα, με τρεις αγωνιστικές κεκλεισμένων των θυρών.

Tο Πρωτοβάθμιο Μονομελές Πειθαρχικό όργανο πήρε τις παρακάτω αποφάσεις:

20ή Αγωνιστική

ΠΑΕ ΠΑΟΚ: «Με την παρούσα μας, σας διαβιβάζουμε την υπ’ αριθμ. πρωτ. 6706/16-2-2018 Πειθαρχική Δίωξη του Υπευθύνου Ασκήσεως Διώξεως Ποδοσφαιρικών Αδικημάτων, καλώντας σας συνάμα, όπως παραστείτε ενώπιόν μας, κατά την εκδίκασή της, η οποία προσδιορίσθηκε, κατά την ημερομηνία της 22ης-2-2018, ημέρα Πέμπτη, και ώρα 16:00.»: ΣΥΝΕΚΔΙΚΑΖΟΝΤΑΣ κατ’ αντιμωλίαν της πειθαρχικώς εγκαλούμενης Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. και της προσθέτως παρεμβαίνουσας Π.Α.Ε. ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΟΣ : Α) την στρεφόμενη κατά της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. από 15-02-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 6706/16-02-2018 Πειθαρχική Δίωξη του Αναπληρωτή Υπευθύνου Ασκήσεως Διώξεως Ποδοσφαιρικών Αδικημάτων, και Β) την από 21-02-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 61/21-02-2018 πρόσθετη παρέμβαση της Π.Α.Ε. ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΟΣ, προς υποστήριξη της υπό στοιχείο Α΄ ως άνω, από 15-02-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 6706/16-02-2018 ασκηθείσης Πειθαρχικής Διώξεως του Αναπληρωτή Υπευθύνου Ασκήσεως Διώξεως Ποδοσφαιρικών Αδικημάτων.

ΑΠΟΡΡΙΠΤΕΙ την υπό στοιχείο Β΄ ως άνω, από 21-02-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 61/21-02-2018 πρόσθετη παρέμβαση της Π.Α.Ε. ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΟΣ, προς υποστήριξη της υπό στοιχείο Α΄ ως άνω από 15-02-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 6706/16-02-2018 ασκηθείσης Πειθαρχικής Διώξεως του Αναπληρωτή Υπευθύνου Ασκήσεως Διώξεως Ποδοσφαιρικών Αδικημάτων.

ΔΕΧΕΤΑΙ ότι η εγκαλούμενη Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. τέλεσε την αποδιδόμενη σε αυτήν, με την από 15-02-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 6706/16-02-2018 Πειθαρχική Δίωξη του Αναπληρωτή Υπευθύνου Ασκήσεως Διώξεως Ποδοσφαιρικών Αδικημάτων, πειθαρχική παράβαση της προκλήσεως επεισοδίων στον εν γένει χώρο του γηπέδου, που δεν συνδέονταν με βιαιοπραγίες κατά προσώπων (άρθρα 1, 2, 14 παρ. 1, 2, 3 και 4, 15 παρ. 4 περ. α΄ του Πειθαρχικού Κώδικα της Ε.Π.Ο.).

ΕΠΙΒΑΛΛΕΙ στην Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. την χρηματική ποινή του ποσού των τριάντα χιλιάδων (30.000,00) ευρώ.

 

25η Αγωνιστική

Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ., Ιωάννης (Ιβάν) Σαββίδης του Ιγνατίου (Πρόεδρος του Διοικητικού Συμβουλίου της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ) και Μichel Lubos του Michal (Τεχνικός Διευθυντής):

ΣΥΝΕΚΔΙΚΑΣΗ : Α) της στρεφόμενης κατά του Ιωάννη (Ιβάν) Σαββίδη του Ιγνατίου και της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. από 14-03-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 9174/14-03-2018 Πειθαρχικής Διώξεως του Υπευθύνου Ασκήσεως Διώξεως Ποδοσφαιρικών Αδικημάτων, Β) της υπ’ αριθμ. πρωτ. 103/14-03-2018 κλήσεως προς απολογία του Πρωτοβάθμιου Μονομελούς Πειθαρχικού Οργάνου Super League Ελλάδα κατά της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. και του Lubos Michel του Michal και Γ) της από 13-03-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 94/13-03-2018 ενστάσεως της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. κατά της Π.Α.Ε. Α.Ε.Κ.

ΑΠΟΡΡΙΠΤΕΙ την από 13-03-2018 και με αριθμό πρωτοκόλλου 94/13-03-2018 ένσταση της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ.

ΑΠΟΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ ότι ο ποδοσφαιρικός αγώνας μεταξύ των ομάδων Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. και Π.Α.Ε. Α.Ε.Κ., ο οποίος είχε προγραμματισθεί να διεξαχθεί κατά την ημερομηνία της 11ης-03-2018, στη Θεσσαλονίκη, στο Γήπεδο Τούμπας, στο πλαίσιο της 25ης αγωνιστικής ημέρας του πρωταθλήματος «Super League Ελλάδα», της αγωνιστικής περιόδου 2017-2018, διεκόπη πριν την κανονική λήξη του από υπαιτιότητα της Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ.

ΘΕΩΡΕΙ ότι η εγκαλούμενη Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. ηττήθηκε με τέρματα 0-3 από την Π.Α.Ε. Α.Ε.Κ. (άρθρο 21 παρ. 3 περ. ΙΙ στοιχ. α΄ του Κ.Α.Π./Ε.Π.Ο.).

ΕΠΙΒΑΛΛΕΙ στην Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. την ποινή της αφαιρέσεως τριών (3) βαθμών από τον πίνακα της βαθμολογίας του τρέχοντος πρωταθλήματος, καθώς επίσης και δύο (2) βαθμών από το επόμενο πρωτάθλημα (άρθρο 21 παρ. 3 περ. ΙΙ στοιχ. γ΄ του Κ.Α.Π./Ε.Π.Ο.).

ΕΠΙΒΑΛΛΕΙ στον Ιωάννη (Ιβάν) Σαββίδη, για την πειθαρχική παράβαση της απειλής (άρθρα 1, 5 επ., 14 παρ. 1, 2, 3 και 19 του Π.Κ. της Ε.Π.Ο.), σωρευτικώς τη χρηματική ποινή των εκατό χιλιάδων (100.000,00) ευρώ, καθώς και την πειθαρχική κύρωση της απαγορεύσεως της εισόδου του στο γήπεδο για χρονικό διάστημα τριών (3) ετών.

ΕΠΙΒΑΛΛΕΙ στον Μichel Lubos του Michal συνολική ποινή απαγορεύσεως της εισόδου του στον αγωνιστικό χώρο, διαρκείας ενενήντα (90) ημερολογιακών ημερών, καθώς και συνολική χρηματική ποινή, ποσού δεκαπέντε χιλιάδων (15.000,00) ευρώ (άρθρο 4 παρ. 4 του Π.Κ. της Ε.Π.Ο.).

ΕΠΙΒΑΛΛΕΙ στην Π.Α.Ε. Π.Α.Ο.Κ. την ποινή της διεξαγωγής τριών (3) αγώνων χωρίς θεατές και συνολική χρηματική ποινή, ύψους εξήντα τριών χιλιάδων (63.000,00) ευρώ (άρθρο 4 παρ. 4 του Π.Κ. της Ε.Π.Ο.).

(Επισυνάπτονται οι αποφάσεις του Πρωτοβάθμιου Μονομελούς Πειθαρχικού Οργάνου της Super League Ελλάδα, όπου παρατίθεται αναλυτικά το σκεπτικό τους).

 
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To sum things up:

AEK wins the game on paper 3:0
PAOK gets deducted 3 points this season and 2 points next season
PAOK to play three games without fans
PAOK is fined 30,000 Euro
Michel gets punished with 90 day ban from the stadium and 15,00o0 Euro fine
Ivan Savvidis is punished with a 3-year ban and 100,000 Euro fine 

PAOK will appeal the decision. I hope they take it all the way to CAS (including the Olympiakos game) knowing very well that we will lose.

My prediction is that on the appeal the Savvidis and maybe Michel bans will be reduced. They might even reduce the 2 point deduction for next season. That's about it. The three disgraced refs will sit out for couple months, but will be available next season to serve their masters.

Of all the robbed titles in Greek soccer history this is the biggest one. For the first time in history it is where two teams joined hands together to prevent one team from contending for the title.

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You don't think there's a justification for the punishment that was doled out? PAOK were the best team this year on the pitch, but Savvidis crossed a line that should not have been crossed, irrespective of the poor decision made the referee to disallow the goal vs AEK.

On one hand, I agree with you and hope that Savvidis' penalty is reduced given that he's been a great investor in both PAOK and Thessaloniki. On the other, actions have consequences and there needs to be some accountability.

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The punishment to Savvidis and Michel was the proper one. Once the ref ordered the teams to go on the pitch to finish the game and only PAOK came out than I don't see the reason why PAOK was punished by losing the game and points being deducted. In other words the person(s) that caused the whole fiasco will again be assigned to ref games in the future so they can once again influence decision for their masters. Simple as that. 

All I know is that one team chickened out to come out and play and the other one chickened out when they lost a game on the field. And in both cases the common denominator was the ref that wrote lies in the match report. 

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I personally have no problem with the actual punishment handed out to PAOK and Savvidis. Savvidis' punishment still allows him to continue investing and being involved with all aspects of the team apart from attending their matches. By entering the pitch then the team faces point deduction the same way if a fan entered the pitch. 

What I have an issue is that going forward AEK and all teams have a green light to pressure every referring decision with abuse and man-handling to overturn decisions.  There will be no repercussions after. Also the officials that were involved with the aek and Olympiakos matches can continue officiating matches so will next season be any better?

I wonder if fifa/UEFA ever saw the fiascos with the aek-atromitos cup final where it was one of the most obvious rigged matches of all time (along with olympiakos Tripoli cup final). Also in the same match aek fans went on a rampage and attacked atromitos team and families. When I mean attacked they threw projectiles and BASHED. The punishment handed out was a little fine and a couple matches with no fans. 

Anyways let's hope for a clean no drama filled season next year...

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Απο τη στιγμή που οι διαιτητές μπορούν να γράφουν συμπληρωματικές και να αλλοιώνουν αυτά που πραγματικά έγιναν, κανείς δεν μας εγγυάται ότι του χρόνου θα γίνει κάτι διαφορετικό.

Στο ίδιο έργο θεατές. Κομπάρσοι της Αθήνας. Σαββίδη πάρτο χαμπάρι, πάρε την ομάδα και παίξε σε άλλη λίγκα. Δεν πάει άλλο.

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So in summary it's confirmed that PAOK controls EPO and Syriza also is with PAOK.  If this were not the case we would have been given -50 points, Savvidis would get a life ban and PAOK 10 years with no fans.  The people that thought this theory could be true have been proven correct.  Imbeciles.

As to the punishment once again wrong.  Collective punishment to all the players and fans who did nothing wrong.  The punishments whatever they were should have been for Savvidis and Michel only.  The punishments will help begin the healing process in the GSL.  All PAOK fans will walk away from this feeling that justice was served since they all participated.  And those that called for collective punishment will see that next year PAOK fans won't be angry.  They will be like little sheep.  Imbeciles.

AEK and Olympiacos showed when it comes down to it, you do what you have to, to win.  We'll need to do the same since that is the way in Greece and this punishment changes nothing.  Enjoy your paper title AEK.  This makes up for the one Olympiacos took from you ?  Save your justifications, I don't care to hear them.  I will rejoice every time AEK and Olympiacos fail.  Even in Europe.  I hope you get 0 points in Europe even though it affects PAOK too.  Yes, I am an imbecile like you too.

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Disagree that PAOK's punishment was wrong. Regardless if it was Savvidis' act alone he was not allowed on the pitch like a fan. 

What they got wrong was that the game was 1-0 to PAOK so the 3pts should have come off that. Then REWARDING the antics of AEK and awarding the match they lost 1-0 to a 0-3 win with 3 pts is what makes no sense. That's where the aektzides will turn a blind eye and will happily take a result on paper. 

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JVC, we need to compare apples with apples. For arguments sake let's say the momentum of the beer can was the same as the paper roll (it wasn't because the roll apparently weighs ~50 grams, while even at half full, that beer can is ~250 grams. So at the same throwing speed, at best the roll is 20% the momentum). The difference was that Ivic was actually looked at by the stadium doctor before being taken out by medical staff. Olympiakos refused medical inspection from the stadium doctor and basically snuck out with a private car. That makes the injury seem even more suspicious. If you are injured enough that you need to go to hospital, do you really refuse medical help at the time of the injury? Again, I bring the North American mentality where all head injuries immediately go through concussion protocol at the stadium. 

I still think it was pathetic that he was escorted in a wheel chair. Did the stadium doctor actually say he wasn't ok to continue? That's where the main difference of the two incidents need to be looked at.

What happened with Savvidis was crossing the line. But lost in the gun, which no one saw until minutes after he was off the field, was the fact that PAOK scored a goal. We can debate whether it was offside or onside until we are blue in the face, and we will never have the right answer. The issue is that the ruling on the field was initially "Goal", based on the ref signalling a goal, and the assistant not raising his flag, and even motioning to centre of the pitch. Heck even the keeper who was the one apparently obstructed, didn't even complain. Then AEK players swarm the assistant, and after a few minutes, the ruling on the field is changed.

The events that followed are a boil over of the previous three weeks circus. Actually, you can even argue that it was a boil over of the 50 year circus of Greek soccer. This is why we need to actually stop the league and have a proper inquiry to all the things that affect Greek soccer. Greece will win the World Cup before that ever happens.

Edited by PAOK17
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Also listen to Kone's words right after the game, while still at the stadium. The ref wanted to continue the game, and it was AEK that wanted to either not play, or at least know the score of the game prior to going out. And all of a sudden AEK's officials are saying in the court "No no, that didn't happen". Really??? Is the Greek court system that much of a joke?

 

 

 

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Just now, jvc said:

It all goes back to what I keep posting and sound like a broken record....the big 4 don't put the PRODUCT first,   and instead keep f*****g each other over.  There's only 1 solution,  ban Greek football from Europe.  

Agreed. That's what I have been saying. Ban Greece, and fix it. The history of hatred is too deep now. Punishing PAOK now will only build the already existing resentment, between north and south. 

Edited by PAOK17
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Anyone agreeing with the rules and comparing what happened  last season with the beer can and the roll of paper this year is part of the problem... or at the very least least a symptom of the problem. 

There is no common sense applied and the rules are taken advantage of to the detriment of the game in Greece.

Play the PAOK math behind closed doors.. no one could argue that isn’t the fair thing to do at least.

 With regards to the game against AEK. Play the last few mins with the score that was on the board at the time... Whether that was 1-0 or 0-0. Then investigate what the f@vk went on with the officials after PAOK scored. The officials lost all control and must either be incompetent or cheating. Either way they should be investigated, then if deemed incompetent rather than corrupt, sent through training and courses to improve or just admit that officiating high pressure games of football are not for them.

‘Weak’ and ‘culpable’ are two words I would use to discribe them and their shocking performance. 

Finally, the ‘punish all’ rules in Greek football are a joke and only make people more entrenched and divided. Punish the guilty.. not the innocent. 

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Βούλγαροι ήμαστε μια ζωή στα μάτια τους και ξένοι. Άνθρωποι κατώτερης τάξης που μας χρησιμοποιούν μόνο όταν μας έχουν ανάγκη και δεν μας δίνουν ποτέ τίποτα παρά μόνο ξεροκόματα για να μην πεθάνουμε. Αυτή είναι η μόνη αλήθεια.

Προπαγάνδα και για όλα τα κακά φταίει ο ΠΑΟΚ. Μια ζωή.

Καλύτερη ομάδα στην Ελλάδα λέει η ΑΕΚ; Γιατί ρε φίλε; Αήττητη λέει πόσα ματς. Ο ΠΑΟΚ πόσα ματς είχε σερί νίκες μέχρι να χάσει από τον Αστέρα αφού πρώτα τον στήσατε με τον Ολυμπιακό;;;

Η ΑΕΚ έπαιξε λέει Ευρώπη και πήγε στους 32, γι' αυτό αξίζει το πρωτάθλημα. Που ήσασταν όταν ο ΠΑΟΚ κέρδιζε Τότεναμ και Φιορεντίνα και τα ρέστα και πήγε τρεις φορές στους 32;;;

Χάρτινο το περσινό Κύπελλο γιατί το γκολ ήταν οφσάιντ. Της ΑΕΚ το Κύπελλο με τον Λυμπερόπουλο που ήταν οφσάιντ και μετά που μπήκαν μέσα οι Αεκτσήδες και βαρούσαν κόσμο αβέρτα ήταν καλό;;; Που εμείς παραδεχτήκαμε ότι ήταν οφσάιντ, αλλά υπάρχει και πέναλτι πριν το οφσάιντ. Που στο πρώτο ημίχρονο ο ίδιος επόπτης έκανε πάλι λάθος και άφησε τον Αραούχο να βγει τετ α τετ, αλλά έχασε το κοντρόλ και τη φάση. Εκείνο δεν ήταν λάθος; Αλλά όχι χάρτινος ο ΠΑΟΚ.

Που έγιναν επεισόδια και από τις δύο πλευρές σε παιχνίδι με μοιρασμένα εισιτήρια και ο ΠΑΟΚ έφαγε 7 αγωνιστικές και η ΑΕΚ 2. Αυτή είναι η ισονομία σας;

Αξίζει λέει το πρωτάθλημα η ΑΕΚ γιατί ο ΠΑΟΚ δε την κέρδισε. 1-0 κερδίσατε ρε ψευτόμαγκες στο ΟΑΚΑ στις λεπτομέρειες και 1-0 χάσατε στην Τούμπα και πάλι στις λεπτομέρειες. Απλώς το δεύτερο το πήρατε 0-3 και μαζί με το 0-3 που μας πήρε ο Ολυμπιακός σηκώνετε το πρωτάθλημα. Αυτή είναι η αλήθεια. Τώρα φανφάρες και ιστορίες που θα φτιάξετε σαν τους γαύρους να τις χαίρεστε. Όπως το 2008 που πήγατε να πάρετε το πρωτάθλημα και στο τέλος καταλήξατε τελευταίοι στα πλέι οφ. Τα ίδια έλεγαν και οι γαύροι. Ποια Κούλα τώρα, ούτε στα πλέι οφ δεν μπορεί και βγαίνει τελευταία.

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No but we can declare Macedonia an independent country or at the very least a commonwealth of Greece and have our own league. 

And Bananas I have stopped supporting other Greek teams in Europe long time ago. 

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Don't waste your breath Blackhawk. On one side, he says things like everyone is to blame in Greece, and on the other he repeats the same crap about Ivic. He ignores facts that are different from the situations, from the doctor's report in their own stadium. He also seems to not comprehend the laws of classical mechanics. 

JVC, let me spell it out for you. 

Momentum = mass x velocity. Collisions are the transfer of momentum from one object to another. The higher momentum transfer, the harder collision (i.e. harder force). So throwing a mass roughly 5 times heavier, WILL make a difference.

But that's beside the point. We PAOK fans acknowledged at the time that Ivic was being soft. But who are we to argue with league doctors. Olympiakos wouldn't allow the league doctor to examine their coach. The injury was severe enough to require a hospital trip, but not severe enough to receive immediate medical attention. What would have happened if it were a heart attack? Are we that paranoid of medical professionals in the stadiums?

But like many have said. Norther Greeks have felt unfairly treated by south for years. The south have ignored it as paranoia from the North, and maybe they are right. However, brushing it off, makes the North even more furious at the situation. Maybe the two sides need to have a proper conversations where concerns can be voiced and listened to.

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Not only has it to do with North/South it also has to do with politics and economics. All of a sudden there is somebody pouring money into the economy of northern Greece while the big shots in the south try hard to stash money in off shore accounts and being helped by politicians to do so. Sometimes using criminal ways (Noor 1 drug smuggling ship). Why do you think there is paid off media hysteria around Savvidis, which charges being filed in the Noor 1 case go unnoticed.

You are probably right. Nobody cares about the product. The one that tried to care has received viscous war from the south. All of a sudden Alafouzos became buddies with Marinakis and Melissanidis spewing nothing but hate directed at PAOK and Savvidis. 

 

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24 minutes ago, jvc said:

^^Old enough to know....you guys are complexed,   and have a hard time dealing with reality.   

Very complexed.

By the way, what's been lost in all this (because we are all idiots) is the behaviour of the referees.

Last year with Ivic, the referee at least did the right thing and followed protocol.  Even if it was the case that Ivic was a p******.

In the game with Olympiakos, they just walked off the field.  And instead of the referee saying "if you do this you lose 3-0" he didn't do it.  So he either (a) didn't know what to do or (b) was too afraid.  Either way, the referee failed in his duties.  Further to that (for the 100th time re jvc xerokefale) when Olympiakos (a) left the field without permission and (b) failed to allow the doctor to examine Garcia, that was both grounds for instance 3-0 to PAOK.  But what happened ?  Olympiakos got the point AFTER the referee heavily modified his match report.

In the game with AEK they threatened to walk off the field and only after heavy pressure (and threats?) did the referee reverse his decision.

So now next time these teams play, what is the precedent ?  Do we follow the rules of the referee or just ignore him and do whatever we want ?  Do we surround him and threaten to walk off the pitch ?

jvc, these punishments mean NOTHING in terms of improving the league.  The punishments are only good for POK this season.  As to future games, they will be a fiasco as teams do whatever the want, pressure referees, and referees modify match reports.  Or should I say, POK teams do that.  We just throw objects at managers and walk onto fields with guns.

But apparently now everything will be all right in the future now that PAOK has been punished.  Do you believe this ?

If the referees are corrupt what chance do we have of cleaning up the game ?

The way I see it AEK, Olympiakos and the referees all got away with it.  Only PAOK was punished.  Seem fair to you ?  Maybe it does because of what Ivic did.  /justkillme

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