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Macedonia Name Dispute


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There is an article in iefimerida about Macedonia.  You can read beneath  the machine translation of the  article in question.

Reactions arise from the views of a member of the committee on the change of school books in Greece and Skopje, which argues that the Greekity of Macedonia is a fantasy. 

Alexandra Ioannidou is one of the seven members of the committee appointed by the Greek government to examine irresponsibility in Skopje's school books. With recent statements she had questioned the Greekity of Macedonia. The Associate Professor of the National Center for the Study of Democracy said on 19/9/2018:

"We take up a thousand myrrh in the name of the terrible homeland and one, let's say, fantasy telling us that Macedonia was always Greek and will remain Greek." The Truth Team posted the video to twitter.

Πηγή: «Φαντασίωση ότι η Μακεδονία ήταν πάντα ελληνική», λέει μέλος επιτροπής για τα νέα βιβλία ιστορίας | iefimerida.gr 

Notes:

1) I doubt that the word Greekity exist;  nevertheless it is clear what text says

2)  myrrh is  a totally shitty translation;  the Greek μύριοι=10,000.   Hence κατομμύριο=100*10,000=1M.

      The Greek text is "χίλια μύρια".  The literal translation of the Greek text is 1000 times 10,000=10M.  The correct translation is "too many".

I don't know if the text above makes sense.  I do not have the time to produce a good translation. Those of you who  can read Greek can follow the pointer above.

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good read, very sad what they went through.

My Grandfather (who survived 2 wars, both ww2 and the civil war of greece) always told me stories about those hard times.

"τι τραβήξαμε" he would say often

9 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

Those who can read and understand Greek may be interested in a article in Kathimerini,(http://www.kathimerini.gr/987347/gallery/epikairothta/ellada/mia-lhsmonhmenh-agria-katoxh);  essentially describes  how the ethnic Greeks in Macedonia were treated by the Bulgarians during WWI.

 

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  • 2 months later...

It's done. Northern Macedonia is the agreed name by the two sides and the international community.  I think this is a positive development. The name "Macedonia" had been used as de-facto since 1992 by everyone other than Greece. This composite name denotes the geographic nature of the new state to the north of Greece.

The name "Macedonia" had been used by multiple countries and ethnicities in the area for thousands of years. They spoke lots of languages and identified with the geographical area not a particular civilization.  Greece had accepted the composite name of FYROM.... "M" stood for Macedonia....  At least now there are more chances people will be making the differentiation between Greek Macedonia and its norther neighbor.

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While not a fan of the deal, the truth of the matter is the rest of the world already recognizes them as Macedonia.  A deal had to be made.  What is difficult is that their government keeps provoking Greece by referring to themselves as Macedonia.  If the deal is carried out in its true spirit, then this would be a win and would only strengthen our borders and our standing in the world. If....

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One thing is for sure, the will of the people both in Greece and Skopje was ignored.  Democracy has its place but not here apparently.

EU, US, NATO, Tsipras and some ministers are real happy.  Ecstatic.  Tsipras is set for life.  Lots of good jobs coming his way after he loses the election.  I’m sure there are many good paying jobs for lap dogs.

Elites are elites at the end of the day.  They know best.  The rest of you stay in the dirt and mud and tend to the animals.  What’s the difference between a fascist, liberal, communist, socialist etc.  Just the level of physical violence.  Other than that, they know best.

As for if this is a good move or not, I can’t say.  I don’t know enough about the dynamics of the situation.  Greece will be fine ... Greece will die ... Greece will be invaded.  I have heard it all.  As for actual logical deduction it has been scant.  Just shrill arguments lacking substance.

One thing is for sure, the will of the people ... was brushed aside, shat on, spat on, belittled, ignored etc.  I hate with a special passion the elites in Greece, the families and dynasties that have made Greece the corrupt weak nation it is today.   And now Tsipras joins that very special group in my heart.

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the will of the people ... was brushed aside, shat on, spat on, belittled, ignored etc.

  1. In 2001 Tassos Yannitsis (minister in the government of Simitis) informed us that the system of retirement forced the country to borrow money and in the near future the country will be bankrupt.

  2. The reaction of the people forced Yannitsis to leave the goverment.

  3. The country became bankrupt and the people want to find who is the responsible for the present situation.

    The reason for which we have a parliament is simple. Not all opinions are informed and if the government is bad, the judgment of the idiots who voted this government into power cannot be trusted.

 

 

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I had the temerity to write that “Not all opinions are informed and if the government is bad, the judgment of the idiots who voted this government into power cannot be trusted!"

I was received then the the follow comment:

Elites are elites at the end of the day.  They know best.  The rest of you stay in the dirt and mud and tend to the animals.

I continue to believe that “before acting, normal people collect information”. Is there a way to get what they want? What is the cost of this way?

Wonderful people such as Θεοδωράκης and Μοσχολιού had strong opinions about the “Macedonia” of our neighbors. Unfortunately, they only were telling us what they like. They never told us how their their vision would be realized and at what cost (and I am talking about money). Normal, Θεοδωράκης was a composer and Μοσχολιού was a singer. E.g., did they know that there are 80000 ethnic Turks in FYROM? Was this factoid important?

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18 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

the will of the people ... was brushed aside, shat on, spat on, belittled, ignored etc.

  1. In 2001 Tassos Yannitsis (minister in the government of Simitis) informed us that the system of retirement forced the country to borrow money and in the near future the country will be bankrupt.

  2. The reaction of the people forced Yannitsis to leave the goverment.

  3. The country became bankrupt and the people want to find who is the responsible for the present situation.

    The reason for which we have a parliament is simple. Not all opinions are informed and if the government is bad, the judgment of the idiots who voted this government into power cannot be trusted.

If the people can't be trusted to make good decisions, why even have elections ?  After all, they know not.  But that isn't the point.  The point is the government should be trying to explain and educate.  No such thing happened with Tassos.  Under the bus he went.  The dynasties keep eating lobster.  Greece is the land of dynastic families and nepotism.

In Australia when the government proposes anything, and I mean anything, the first thing the people, the media, the opposition ask is "how will it be paid for".  And it is heavily scrutinized.  The government of the day has to try and prove how it will be paid for, or be ridiculed.  Then again, Australia doesn't have dynastic political families.  It has many ills, but that is not one of them.

Hopefully the next generation of youth coming through are different from their parents and can think rationally.  Otherwise, the country is screwed.

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7 hours ago, Bananas said:

Iopefully the next generation of youth coming through are different from their parents and can think rationally.  Otherwise, the country is screwed.

Large number of the next generation of youth has left the country. In most cases they will not be returning back.

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Interesting that Greek football tribes call other Greek tribes, "Bulgars/Βουλγαροι"... 

Indeed Alexander and his Macedons had Greek culture even though they slaughtered any Greek who didn't want them as rulers.

Alexander left Macedonia to Greeks/Helenes in his will. Unfortunately that will was lost in time.

In the centuries that followed, a collection of ethnicities lived in Macedonia, Greeks, Turks, Slavs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews, etc. With the creation of Yugoslavia, a region in that country was named Macedonia. When Yugo broke apart some people to bolster their claim to be an independent country invented a new history based on the geography and thus made Alexander their ancestor.

I've learned from GREEK history books that Greece has 51% of Macedonia. And, if someone controls 51% of the shares, he has the right to control the company.

It's really simple!  right?...

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Agreed.

I don't know what those people actually believe, but I do know if 1-2 generations (since the 1990s) were being taught they were Macedons it's a very good chance they believe it. 

Most people throughout history are given a culture and a certain history and don't examine things independently. If it sounds good, and it makes them feel good, that's all they need. I had an educated colleague from Turkey who didn't know about the Armenian genocide. And, when I brought it up and he ...checked, he said it was a myth by enemies of Turkey..... "Maybe a few hundred Armenians died during the...war,  but...."

 

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Cognitive dissonance is truly powerful. As is customary, it seems like the Skopian diaspora are much more radicalized than the people living in Skopia itself. If you want a laugh, take a look at the "Macedonian Truth" forum. They view any evidence backing the Macedonians being a Greek tribe as either fake or misinterpreted. They genuinely believe that the Greek government pays tens of thousands to academic around the world to lie about this stuff. It's amazing.

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On 2/5/2019 at 7:43 AM, PAOTHEGREAT said:

To add....my brother in law is Greek Macedonian....all his family and other friends I have all say they're Greek.   Greece will be in charge of that region outside Greece in no time.

Interesting. Are they Pontian or ntopioi?

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I'll check out that YouTube page when I get a moment! I'm with you 100% on the ancient Macedonians being a Greek tribe. This is well attested and academically supported. I also am not too fond of the Prespa Agreement since it recognizes a distinct "Macedonian" language and ethnicity when neither of those exist. 

The following is tangential to the name dispute but 100 years ago, the wider geographic region of Macedonia was a demographic hodge-podge. Any serious person knows that "ethnic Macedonians" were not a thing until Bulgarians like Goce Delche spoke that narrative into existence. However, Greeks were certainly not the majority and were the 2nd or 3rd most numerous ethno-linguistic group in the region until the population exchanges. Ethnic continuity is quite a dicey thing and I internally debate this all the time, but I would wager a large number of ntopioi Makedones are descended from Slavs who were living in the area during the early 20th century. It's hard to say with the Pontians as well; to what degree are they descended from Greeks who settled in the Black Sea region 2500 years ago or to more recent Anatolian (Laz, Armenian, Turkic) peoples? 

However, this makes little difference to me. I consider the ntopioi Makedones and Pontioi as 100% Greek so long as they identify as such. 

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13 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

Concerning " I'm with you 100% on the ancient Macedonians being a Greek tribe"

II think that you should Google  "Αλέξανδρος Α΄ της Μακεδονίας" and read

"https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Αλέξανδρος_Α΄_της_Μακεδονίας

Bashibozuk, I'm well aware of the stories surrounding Alexander I. 

 

Herodotus recounts a few things about the ancient Macedonians and their kings:

- Herodotue gives us the origin story of the Macedonian royal house and how/where they founded their capital of Aegae.

- King Alexander I was deemed a Hellene by lineage thru Argive descent by the Olympic committee in Elis.

- King Alexander I refers to himself as a Greek by descent to the allied Greek coalition gathered at the Vale of Tempe to fight off the Persians

- Before their descent into the Peloponnese, the Dorians were referred to as Macedonians. This indicates some type of common lineage that was present in classical Greek folklore.

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Let me see if we are on the page:

  1. Alexander I of Macedon (494-454 BC), known as the Philhellene, ruled Macedonia

  2. The adjective Phihellene is normally attached to someone who is not Greek

  3. Alexander I wished to participate to the Olympics

  4. He would not be allowed to compete as a Macedonian. He had to prove his Greek ancestry and only then was he would be allowed to participate.

  5. He claimed to be member of the royal family which could trace its origins back to Argos

  6. Herodotus is the father of history. Nevertheless, he is not a historian by the current understanding of the word; e.g., Thucydidis accused him of making up stories.

7). Alexander I did not claim that the Macedonians (himself included) were Dorians and hence Greek. I.e., he accepted that his Macedonians were not Greek.

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3 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

Let me see if we are on the page:

  1. Alexander I of Macedon (494-454 BC), known as the Philhellene, ruled Macedonia

  2. The adjective Phihellene is normally attached to someone who is not Greek

  3. Alexander I wished to participate to the Olympics

  4. He would not be allowed to compete as a Macedonian. He had to prove his Greek ancestry and only then was he would be allowed to participate.

  5. He claimed to be member of the royal family which could trace its origins back to Argos

  6. Herodotus is the father of history. Nevertheless, he is not a historian by the current understanding of the word; e.g., Thucydidis accused him of making up stories.

7). Alexander I did not claim that the Macedonians (himself included) were Dorians and hence Greek. I.e., he accepted that his Macedonians were not Greek.

Actually, Bashibozuk, you make the fatal mistake of assuming the modern definition of Philhellene is the only context in which it was always used. The term Philhellene was also used in antiquity to describe patriotic Greeks (source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23110917&redirect=true). So, king Alexander I of Makedonia being described as Philhellene does not exclude him from having Greek ancestry. 

Herodotus presents conflicting views in his Histories. On the one hand, the Olympic participation story seems to indicate that the southern Greeks didnt consider the commonfolk Macedonians to be Greek. On the other, Herodotus clearly established a genealogical link between the Dorians of southern Greece to the Macedonians of northern Greece when he recounts the historical migration of the Dorian tribes. The latter view has been borne out in the archaeological record as well. The Pella curse tablet and Hesychius' glossary point to the Macedonian dialect being NW Doric Greek with Illyrian/Thracian influence.  

I think the academic consensus is pretty clear. The ancient Macedonians as we know them were a combination of predominantly Doric Greeks and Hellenized Illyrians/Thracians who displayed a predominantly Greek culture. 

Edited by Soprano76
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Well, I have the Liddel and Scott Liddel-Scott 1996. There one will read

φιλέλλην fond of the Hellenes, mostly of foreign princes …...and later they get on the part about patriotism.

I happen to have the dictionary of Stamatakos. he writes the same stuff minus the patriotism part.

But the serious part is this:

  1. The organizers did not believe that the Macedonians were eligible and

  2. Alexander#1  did not state that the Macedonians were Greeks and therefore eligible. He managed, by means unknown and doubtful, to make himself eligible and not any other Macedonian.

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