Jump to content
Phantis Forums

Macedonia Name Dispute


Recommended Posts

Part of this new naming deal also involves multiple changes to Skopje's constitution. Some of the changes are:

- their history has no correlation to ancient Macedonia

- that they are not descendants of ancient Macedonians 

- that ancient symbols are not to he used in any flags

- that their statues and monuments must clearly state that they belong to the ancient Hellinistic period

- that they have no territorial claims on Greek Macedonia 

- their education system to use newly re written books and materials that does not correlate their history with that of ancient Macedonia and to not have any maps showing Greek Macedonia as part of their Northern Macedonia

- that their Macedonian language is part of the Slavic language and has no correlation to the language spoken by ancient Macedonians 

Therefore the next generation of our northern neighbors will have a very different belief system about their history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/16/2018 at 1:28 AM, AchillesHeel said:

The fact that there are 2.5 million greeks who consider themselves macedonians from a long ways back

50% of Greeks in Makedonia are descendants of Greeks that came from Thraki, Pontus and Asia Minor in the 1920s 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Εχω την εντύπωση ότι  η πλειοψηφία μας δεν ξέρει την ιστορία μας και οτι οι γείτονες, στην πλειοψηφία τους,  δεν ξέρουν, δεν θα μάθουν και θα αρνηθούν να μάθουν την δική τους.  Η  ψευδής ιστορία πάντα είναι πιό γλυκιά από την πραγματική.

Οι γείτονες πιστεύουν οτι αδικήθηκαν και πράγματι αδικήθηκαν. Βέβαια, αν μπορούσαν, θα είχαν  αδικήσει  τους δικούς μας.  Οι χαμένοι κατά κανόνα αδικούνται και αρνούνται να ξεχάσουν την αδικία.  

19 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

....

Therefore the next generation of our northern neighbors will have a very different belief system about their history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Το πραγματοκό όνομα του  Gjorge Ivanov  είναι Γεώργιος Γιαννόπουλος.    Με αποτέλεσμα ο κίβδηλα ονομάζενος  Σλάβος να ηγείται της  κίβδηλης Μακεδονίας.  Προτείνω η κίβδηλη Μακεδονία να ενωθή  με τη Βουλγαρία μα το όνομα Δυτική Βουλγαρία και να τελειώση αυτός ο αχταρμάς.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
On 3/22/2018 at 7:28 PM, SydneyPAOK said:

 

Ps - not only would there have been Slavs that were Hellenized over the the last millenia but Hellenes who would have also been Slavicized. Therefore there could be Skops (i would guess a small %) who could actually be descendants of the Ancient Macedonian Dynasty. 

 

From researching my family's history I have found that my family were Hellene who were slavicized, though I have no intention of telling them that; they like to believe the brainwashing done by the Bulgarians.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, skopia77 said:

From researching my family's history I have found that my family were Hellene who were slavicized, though I have no intention of telling them that; they like to believe the brainwashing done by the Bulgarians.

E.g. the family name of the head of the Greek church is Liapis. His last name suggests Albanian ethnic origin. His ethnic identity is Greek. Actually all the Christian Arvanites in Greece were and are considered to be Greeks of Albanian origin.

In the Peloponnese, next to the sea, there is a village named Yalova. A few years back I met a Turkish lady who was blonde. I asked where she was born; she told me in Yalova, a city, in Turkey.

So there we are:

  1. We have Turks, e.g. Erdoğan, whose ethnic origin is Greek; Erdoğan's grandfather lived in Potamya (in Greek potami=river and potamya= place next to the river) in Turkey, near the Black sea.

  2. We also have blond Turks born in a Turkish city with a GreekoSlavic names (if I am not wrong, Yalova comes from the Greek Yalos= seashore and ova=place).

I have no idea for the ethnic-identity of your ancestors. It would interesting to know:

  1. The names (first and last name) of your ancestors

  2. If they were followers of the Bulgarian exarch or of the patriarch in the City

  3. What language they used at home.

  4. If they lived in a village, can you name a) The name of their village and   b) If their village had a teacher and/or a doctor; if so, who was providing him/them? Greece or Bulgaria?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

I have no idea for the ethnic-identity of your ancestors. It would interesting to know:

  1. The names (first and last name) of your ancestors

  2. If they were followers of the Bulgarian exarch or of the patriarch in the City

  3. What language they used at home.

  4. If they lived in a village, can you name a) The name of their village and   b) If their village had a teacher and/or a doctor; if so, who was providing him/them? Greece or Bulgaria?

 

1. I don't mean to sound brash but I don't want to give their names though the last name of my grandfathers side of the family use to be greek then it was changed to slavic version and after the civil war was changed back to the greek version, from what I know my grandmothers side of the family her last name was never changed it always stayed as the greek version.

2. Im not 100% on this but I think it was the patriarch of the city 

3. from what I'm told it was bulgarian in my grandmothers home though I don't know for my grandfather's home

4. the village was skopia near florina. I think at first the teacher & pope was greek but then the bulgarian militia came in and killed the teacher and pope, they then put their own people in.

  the first part of the video explains the history of the village if you are curious

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. I am not a policeman and you do not have to answer any of my questions.

2.  H Skopia of Florina was known as Ανω Νεβόλιανη prior to 1928.

3.  The name Νεβόλιανη is believed to be Slavic; In the Kathimerini we read  the following for another village with the same name:

Το πότε κτίστηκε το χωριό δεν είναι είναι γνωστό. Ξέρουμε μόνον πως προϋπήρχε της κατάκτησης της Θεσσαλίας από τους Τούρκους το 1393. Η επικρατέστερη εκδοχή είναι πως κτίστηκε μεταξύ 11ου και 13ου αι. από γεωργοκτηνοτρόφους που κατέβηκαν εκεί από τη σημερινή Σερβία μετά τον 11ο αι., εξ ου και το σλάβικο τοπωνύμιο Νιβόλιανη. Οι ντόπιοι θεωρούν ότι Νιβόλιανη σημαίνει ουράνια πόλη. Ομως ο Γιάννης Κορδάτος στην «Ιστορία επαρχίας Βόλου και Αγιάς» γράφει τα εξής:

«Ο Vasmer ετυμολογεί αυτό το τοπωνύμιο από το σλαβικό Nevoljane που θα πει κακοτοπιά, μέρος φτωχό και επικίνδυνο. Αλλοι, όμως, που ξέρουν καλά σλαβικά μού είπαν πως σημαίνει σκλάβοι-δούλοι, άρα Σκλαβοχώρι. Οι παλαιοί πάλι Νεβολιανίτες παραδέχονταν μεν πως το όνομα του χωριού τους είναι σλαβικό, μα του έδιναν τη σημασία Ουρανία».

Therefore it is plausible that  at some time the population of the Skopia was Slavic.

 As for you, if you are Greek subject and feel Greek you are (in my opinion at least)  Greek.  Look at the Gagauz in Greece.  They are Turks who became Christians and they feel Greeks.  No problem!

 

Edited by Bashibozuk
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What follows may be informative.

The data that follow were copied from a page, “Οικισμοί της Φλώρινας που αρχίζουν από Γ”, of Δημήτρη Λιθοξόου). The majority of Greeks considers him a lesser Greek. Lesser or not, Lithoxoou's data appear to be true and informing. According to the data listed by Λιθοξόου:

  1. χριστιανικός πληθυσμός: 480 εξαρχικοί και 1.040 πατριαρχικοί Βούλγαροι. Λειτουργία ενός εξαρχικού σχολείου με ένα δάσκαλο και 35 μαθητές και ενός πατριαρχικού σχολείου με δύο δασκάλους και 27 μαθητές [Brancoff1905]

  2. Σκοπιά (Άνω Νεβολιάνη), 140 ξενόφωνες οικογένειες, όλες δεδηλωμένων σλαυϊκών φρονημάτων [Στατιστική 1932].

  3. Σκοπιά, 1.691 κάτοικοι, εκ των οποίων 1.100 ήταν σλαυόφωνοι. Υπήρχαν 800 άτομα μη ελληνικής συνείδησης, 300 ρευστής και 591 ελληνικής [Στατιστική 1945].

  4. Μεταξύ 1903-1915 μετανάστευσαν από το χωριό στις ηπα και κατά την εκεί άφιξη τους στο Ellis Island δήλωσαν στις αρχές εθνικά Μακεδόνες  36 άτομα.

    Unless I am wrong, the names (listed by Lithoxoos) of the 36 immigrants were Slavic.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bashibozuk said:

What follows may be informative.

The data that follow were copied from a page, “Οικισμοί της Φλώρινας που αρχίζουν από Γ”, of Δημήτρη Λιθοξόου). The majority of Greeks considers him a lesser Greek. Lesser or not, Lithoxoou's data appear to be true and informing. According to the data listed by Λιθοξόου:

  1. χριστιανικός πληθυσμός: 480 εξαρχικοί και 1.040 πατριαρχικοί Βούλγαροι. Λειτουργία ενός εξαρχικού σχολείου με ένα δάσκαλο και 35 μαθητές και ενός πατριαρχικού σχολείου με δύο δασκάλους και 27 μαθητές [Brancoff1905]

  2. Σκοπιά (Άνω Νεβολιάνη), 140 ξενόφωνες οικογένειες, όλες δεδηλωμένων σλαυϊκών φρονημάτων [Στατιστική 1932].

  3. Σκοπιά, 1.691 κάτοικοι, εκ των οποίων 1.100 ήταν σλαυόφωνοι. Υπήρχαν 800 άτομα μη ελληνικής συνείδησης, 300 ρευστής και 591 ελληνικής [Στατιστική 1945].

  4. Μεταξύ 1903-1915 μετανάστευσαν από το χωριό στις ηπα και κατά την εκεί άφιξη τους στο Ellis Island δήλωσαν στις αρχές εθνικά Μακεδόνες  36 άτομα.

    Unless I am wrong, the names (listed by Lithoxoos) of the 36 immigrants were Slavic.

 

 

Thanks, this information on the settlements of florina is really interesting; where could I find more about this and would it have records of the land people owned or births?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

  1. If you google “Mετονομασίες οικισμών Mακεδονίας” you will find several lists of villages whose names were changed.

  2. In the well organized countries there are offices (cadaster or cadastre= κτηματολόγιο) where records of ownership of land are kept. It is generally believed that these records are not accurate; a notary once joked that if these records are accurate, Greece is bigger than Brazil.

  3. Births are reported to the town hall/δημαρχείο.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2018 at 6:44 AM, Soprano76 said:

Fokida.. in some xorio up in the bouna, small place.

wow.. i also come from fokida lol. we might end up as long distant relatives with you, blackhawk and tantra lmao ?? 

Edited by Boxou
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on my limited knowledge, it seems like most the people in northern Macedonia, such as from Kastoria or Florina, are either Pontians, Bulgarians who became Hellenized or Hellenized Vlachs. I would say that most of the "ethnic Greek" presence in Macedonia during the Ottoman occupation through to the Macedonian struggle was concentrated around Olympus and Chalkidiki

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who is/was Greek is not clear; moreover, the criteria are not clear. Examples:

  1.   A friend's grandmother crossed the Aegean for free thanks to Venizelos and Atatürk. Eventually she ended in Polygono (area in    Athens that is not called Polygono nowadays). One day arrived to Polygono a mailman looking for a lady whose pre-marriage last name was Papadopoulou. Every lady in Polygono affirmed that there was no such person in Polygono. My friend's grandmother's pre-marriage last name was Papazkızı which, if translated from Turkish to Greek, would be Παπαδοπούλου. Language is not always a good criterion of ethnicity.
  2. In the Mani there is a town called Αερόπολη. It used to be called (Ts/Tzimova] with the -ova being a typical Slavic ending
  3. Greece(Peloponnese included) is/was full of villages called called Αράχοβα or Αράχωβα. In these villages the old gentlemen/ladies (Arvanites) could speak an idiom that is a version of Tosk-Albanian.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh. most certainly that language does not equal ethnicity. It just seems to me that those areas up north were so thoroughly Slavic that it's hard to imagine many ethnic Greeks remained. Not to mention, from what I understand the Greek peninsula was severely depopulated in the Middle Ages, leading to significant settling of Slavs and Albanians in the area. On the other hand, genetic studies done have shown that modern Greeks have a very close genetic make-up to Mycenaean era and Classical era Greeks and their closest modern relatives are southern Italians (Magna Graecia). So, I go back and forth on this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  1. Ι tend to look at ethnicity as being subjective not objective. A bit as claiming being member of a club. If the club members accept me as such, then I am member.

  2. Look at our neighbors across the Aegean. When the Turks arrived at middle East they were roughly 1M and the peoples within today's Turkey were roughly 10M.   DNA shows that the Turks in Turkey share on average 92/100 of their of the DNA with the Armenians and the Kurds..

  3. Our own Isocrates stated that Greeks are those who have Greek culture.

  4. What can one say about the citizens of the USA, of Canada, or of Australia. Are they part of a nation? of an ethnos?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

1) After the end of the Peloponnesian war:

Athens surrendered in 404 BC. The surrender stripped Athens of its walls, its fleet, and all of its overseas possessions. Corinth and Thebes demanded that Athens should be destroyed and all its citizens should be enslaved. However, the Spartans announced their refusal to destroy a city that had done a good service at a time of greatest danger to Greece. and took Athens into their own system. Athens was "to have the same friends and enemies" as Sparta.[22]

(Possibly because a destroyed Athens would result in a strong Corinth and strong Thebes)

2) Let us look at the Alexander the great::

a) In 335 B.C. The Thebians revolted against the Macedonians; eventually they were defeated. Those who survived were sold (slaves) and the city was destroyed.

b) After the fall or Tyrus 2,000 Tyrians were  crucified; the rest ,, roughly 30,000,, were sold into slavery ….

c)..In the fall of 324 BC … Hephaestion fell ill with high fever and eventually died. The details are not known.

 Plutarch says that Hephaestion had ignored medical advice and as soon as his doctor, Glaucias, had gone off to the theatre, he ate a large breakfast consisting of a boiled fowl and a cooler of wine, and then fell sick and died.[7

According to Arrian Alexander had the doctor, Glaucias, executed for his lack of care.

I, for one, fail to understand why just everyone wants to claim Alexander as member of his ethnic group; I have even read texts (in the Internet) that claim that he was Muslim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/19/2018 at 9:09 PM, Bashibozuk said:

 

Therefore it is plausible that  at some time the population of the Skopia was Slavic.

 

The notion that because a village had a slavic name therefore the people were Slavs is laughable.  This is what Lithoxou and Nakratzas write and that is why they are  amateurs who cant be taken seriously.

If this is the case i can name 3 villages just off the top of my head  Aetos Florina , Mesimeri Edessas and Episkopi Naousas which all had slavic speakers and these names did not change meaning this is what they were called during the Ottoman empire .  

There were villages with Slavic names that had Greek speakers, Vlach speakers.   Villages with Greek names with Slavic speakers.Villages with Turkish names with Greek speakers and Slavic speakers.  etc etc 

Nakratzas writes about a village near Kastoria which was Kumanichovo and he states that the original settlers were Kumans!! Armenohori in Florina were Armenians!! Because of the names of these villages the people must have been..

Lithoksou and Nakratzas = Amateurs on the subject of Macedonia.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possibly Lithoksoou is amateur.  Do we have another and better source?  Which one?

Let us look at the existing data:

  1. Greece is full with villages that  are or were called Arachova.  Who created these names? 

  2. In Eurytania there is a  gorge named Helidona.  Before its name was Lastovo.  In the slavic idioms  last=swallow=χελιδόνι

The slavic toponyms imply that at some time there were Slavic speakers  in the area.

3)  The second Bulgarian empire included part of the Greek Macedonia (now). One can assume that some Bulgarians moved to these areas.

4) In August 1903 there was an upriise, Ilinden, of the slavomakedones. They failed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possibly Lithoksoou is amateur.  Do we have another and better source?  Which one?

Let us look at the existing data:

  1. Greece is full with villages that  are or were called Arachova.  Who created these names? 

  2. In Eurytania there is a  gorge named Helidona.  Before its name was Lastovo.  In the slavic idioms  last=swallow=χελιδόνι

The slavic toponyms imply that at some time there were Slavic speakers  in the area.

3)  The second Bulgarian empire included part of the Greek Macedonia (now). One can assume that some Bulgarians moved to these areas.

4) In August 1903 there was an upriise, Ilinden, of the slavomakedones. They failed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Similar Content

    • By athinaios
      I don't see a topic devoted to this election, which takes place today... actually the first polling places are just opening now.
      So, what do you think of the result--which if polls are correct--a new government (or a winning party) will emerge soon after voting ends later tonight.
      As an ex-pat, I can't vote tomorrow since I'm not traveling to Greece and to the edge (near Galatsi and Perisso) of the city of Athens to cast a ballot. I confess that it wouldn't be an easy vote. I've been reading Nikos Dimou [or if you prefer, link in English] since I was a teenager, many decades ago. I also had the pleasure to exchange many thoughts, over a long time, with him and a bunch of other interesting people over a decade ago.
      Anyway, this is what he wrote in the last few days about the elections:
      http://doncat.blogspot.com/2019/06/blog-post_13.html#links
      http://doncat.blogspot.com/2019/07/blog-post.html#links
       
    • Guest PastMember
      By Guest PastMember
      Inexplicable decision
      Online government portal Diavgeia turned out to be one of the most important reforms carried out in Greece over the last few years. A decision by today?s leftist-led coalition government to dismantle the transparency initiative program was based on absolutely unfounded excuses and represents a major setback. The government portal allowed citizens to have access to decisions regarding state recruitments and procurements, the expenditure of public organizations and other interesting information.
      In the absence of Diavgeia, what is more than certain is that the corrupt and the wasteful will once more be able to hide behind a veil of nontransparency. The removal of the transparency portal was no doubt an incomprehensible decision on the part of the SYRIZA-Independent Greeks administration.
      http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_1_06/05/2015_549741
    • Guest PastMember
      By Guest PastMember
      Looks like the Turkish Navy entered the Andros sea area illegally and used the area as a firing range. 
       
      Nothing like booking a holiday in greece to see muslim military vessels firing guns right in front of your beach.  :la:
       
      Anyone who buys a holiday home anywhere in the Aegean needs balls of steel.. no wonder everyone buys in Spain and France.
       

       
      http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/06/11/pedio-volhs-androu_n_7559394.html
    • By athinaios
      I think one of the foundations of a modern, enlightened, and successful society is the educational system. Unfortunately, this is one of the many institutions that has been in crisis. Even the various governments don't know what to make of it other than proceed with big reforms only to be undone by the next government.
      What are your thoughts?
      I will write more, but I'm sure you have lots to say about this topic, so fire on....
    • By gyros
      Well we can post in here if Greece will be using Euros, bitcoin, Rubles, or Feta as the currency next month.
    • By Koro
      Greece appears to be improving relations with Russia. What are your guys thoughts on this?
       
      I think this has its positives, but it also could have negative implications. Personally its anyone but the Germans at the moment. Perhaps Greece's fear of pissing off USA/NATO could stop this from developing.
  • Popular Topics Now

  • Tell a friend

    Love Phantis Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...