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Macedonia Name Dispute


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The Greeks where I'm from in Chicago really do a terrible job with this whole issue. Granted, there are very few people from Makedonia or Thrace that I've met here but mostly everyone refers to the Skops as "Masos" or Macedonians and don't know about our history. It's sad.

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2 hours ago, Soprano76 said:

The Greeks where I'm from in Chicago really do a terrible job with this whole issue. Granted, there are very few people from Makedonia or Thrace that I've met here but mostly everyone refers to the Skops as "Masos" or Macedonians and don't know about our history. It's sad.

Isnt pretty much every Greek in Chicago from southern Greece?

Its more of a big deal in Australia because a large portion of our Greeks are from Makedonia and a lot of those gypsies from north of the border are here as well.

You dont really hear much about skopiani in America.

Calling them "masos" isnt just limited to you guys everyone does it here as well, was at a family friends birthday party last week and she said to me "you gotta try the macedonian pizza"...was ready to throw the box at her head lol

 

Edited by Greekoz
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Yeah, basically the majority of Greeks in Chicago are from Tripoli or thereabout. There's a sizeable group of Roumeliotes (which is where I'm from) and then one church that I know of for sure that's made up of all nisiotes.  I know two families by me that are from Makedonia, and one is Ponti. And then there's your occasional Kritiko or someone from Ipiro mixed in as well.

The Skopianoi in America are definitely a small group, however they're still pretty brainwashed. One of the Skop churches near my house has a large Vergina Sun plaque on their main sign facing a big road. There's a big billboard across the street and I kind of feel like trolling them by renting out the billboard and having it say "Macedonia is Greek" lol.

The longer this issue goes on, the more Greeks lose in the court of public opinion. Most Americans are poorly educated about world affairs, there's no way they know the difference between Makedonia and FYROM. That's why I'm so disappointed in my fellow Greeks because they perpetuate the falsehoods. There was an interesting traveling exhibit at the Field Museum here two years ago called "The Greeks: From Agamemnon to Alexander the Great" that had a good chunk about the ancient Makedonoi and their Hellenic background. Hopefully that stuck for the American visitors.

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Yea it's in that general area.

 

I had some questions revolving around the more-modern history that goes into the naming dispute. We all know the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe, and that has been pretty well attested to in archaeology and via surviving texts. My question is, how many of the Greeks in Makedonia today are "ntopioi" whose families have been there for centuries and not either Pontic refugees or just Hellenized Slavs?

For example, I've seen youtube videos of ethnic Skopjian folklore songs being played at paniyiria up in Edessa and Florina. When I briefly visited Edessa, I didn't get the impression that there were many Slavophones there other than some touristy types. It seems like prior to the population exchange, the majority of Greeks in Makedonia were concentrated around Thessaloniki. It's kind of off-topic and tangential to the naming dispute but it's something I've always wondered and not known too well about

Edited by Soprano76
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5 hours ago, Soprano76 said:

I had some questions revolving around the more-modern history that goes into the naming dispute. We all know the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe, and that has been pretty well attested to in archaeology and via surviving texts. My question is, how many of the Greeks in Makedonia today are "ntopioi" whose families have been there for centuries and not either Pontic refugees or just Hellenized Slavs?

For example, I've seen youtube videos of ethnic Skopjian folklore songs being played at paniyiria up in Edessa and Florina. When I briefly visited Edessa, I didn't get the impression that there were many Slavophones there other than some touristy types. It seems like prior to the population exchange, the majority of Greeks in Makedonia were concentrated around Thessaloniki. It's kind of off-topic and tangential to the naming dispute but it's something I've always wondered and not known too well about

Very good questions and thoughts!

I would say anywhere between 25-50% of Greeks currently in Greece would have roots from Thraki, Asia MInor and Pontus. There is a register of Greek refugees that came into Greece produced in 1928. This register may not represent 100% of all Greeks refugees but it lists a majority and the list is of refugees who were given a plot of land by the Greek government. Of the 1.2m on the register, 638k settled in Macedonia. Here is the link to the registry which i have found my great grandfather's name who came from Anatoliki Thraki to Serres:

http://pontosworld.com/index.php/pontus/news/75-directory-of-ottoman-greek-refugees.

Ps - not only would there have been Slavs that were Hellenized over the the last millenia but Hellenes who would have also been Slavicized. Therefore there could be Skops (i would guess a small %) who could actually be descendants of the Ancient Macedonian Dynasty. 

 

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On 3/21/2018 at 9:41 PM, Soprano76 said:

Yeah, basically the majority of Greeks in Chicago are from Tripoli or thereabout. There's a sizeable group of Roumeliotes (which is where I'm from) and then one church that I know of for sure that's made up of all nisiotes.  I know two families by me that are from Makedonia, and one is Ponti. And then there's your occasional Kritiko or someone from Ipiro mixed in as well.

There are enough of us from Macedonia in the Chicago area that the Pan-Macedonian Association held their annual convention here in the past. 

As for Roumeliotes, what area of Chicago did you grow up in? My wife's parents are both from Roumeli and they lived on the south side (Hegwisch), which seemed to have quite a sizable population from that region of Greece.

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Here is an interesting quote from Robin Lane Fox, a historian from Oxford University.

 
"Macedonia is a Greek speaking Kingdom in northern Greece populated by people using Greek names, Greek months of the year worshipping Greek gods. Those who live in Skopje [FYROM], and say that this is Macedonia and Alexander's homeland are as ignorant and outrageous as if someone was to say Oxford University is really in Belarus and Oxford is Minsk"

 

Edited by Molon Lave
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On 3/22/2018 at 2:04 PM, Soprano76 said:

Yea it's in that general area.

 

I had some questions revolving around the more-modern history that goes into the naming dispute. We all know the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe, and that has been pretty well attested to in archaeology and via surviving texts. My question is, how many of the Greeks in Makedonia today are "ntopioi" whose families have been there for centuries and not either Pontic refugees or just Hellenized Slavs?

For example, I've seen youtube videos of ethnic Skopjian folklore songs being played at paniyiria up in Edessa and Florina. When I briefly visited Edessa, I didn't get the impression that there were many Slavophones there other than some touristy types. It seems like prior to the population exchange, the majority of Greeks in Makedonia were concentrated around Thessaloniki. It's kind of off-topic and tangential to the naming dispute but it's something I've always wondered and not known too well about

Before the population exchange Macedonia had both Greek speaking and Slavic speaking natives or ntopioi.

Basically the south was Greek speaking - south of Kastoria, Kozani, Grevena , Veria , Imathia , Katerini was Greek speaking, then around Thessaloniki , Halkidiki was purely Greek, Serres and to the south Nigrita and south of Drama and  Kavala were also Greek speaking.

The Slavic speakers were concenrated north of Kastoria , Florina , Edessa , Naousa,  Kilkis , north of Serres and Drama.

Then you had Vlach speakers who had villages throughout Macedonia (but they were very few in numbers and knew Greek as well)

Turks lived throughout Macedonia as well , large concentrations around Ptolemaida - Kozani, Kilkis , Serres and Drama.

Now with regards to the Slavic speakers they are divided into 2 groups.  The ones with a strong Greek identity and the others with this 'macedonian' identity .   The ones with the Greek identity claim that their ancestors were Greek speakers but during the ottoman empire and living alongside Bulgarians and Turks they picked up this idiom which is a mix of Slavic/Turkish/Greek.    The others have a more whacky version, they are descendants of the ancient macedonians and they are not Greeks or Slavs lol just macedonians

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Yes the medieval Balkans were certainly a hodge podge of ethnicities and the Greek government of the early 20th century no doubt suppressed some of the ntopio Slavic languages, however the Skops take this to the extreme and talk about some non-existent genocide in Makedonia.

They would have you think that no Greeks lived in Makedonia prior to its annexation in 1913 but that just isn't the case; people like Emmanouil Pappas and Dimitris Karatasos were trying to re-unify the land w/ Greece proper in the preceding decades, not to mention the heavy concentration of Greeks in and around Thessaloniki as has already been mentioned.

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BTW, did you guys known Nikola Gruevski's paternal grandfather, Nikola Grouios, was from a xorio on the Greek side of the border and died fighting in the Greco-Italian war? Lol you can't make this stuff up. Some politician who was running against him a few years back visited the xorio and spoke to the old mayor who corroborated the story. There's even a monument with his name on it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

For 30 years now, Greece has lost the game. The name "Macedonia" has been everywhere; nobody used FYROM or Skopje. Even the UN recognized the language of that tiny country as ..Macedonian.  This is the last chance for ..Greece to win something.

Anyway, for me it's a good solution.The "northern" shows the geographical area. Maybe this will be used from now on internationally, especially if the new country uses it internally (as they'd be obliged to), and people will understand the difference.  Like, New Mexico, New Jersey, Northern Ireland, etc....   . 

If Greece has no territorial claims north of its border, then anyone who lives in geographical Macedonia can use the name, and that's what Greece should have been concentrating on..... the geography.   

And, the best way to be powerful and influence your neighbors is having a strong economy.

Edited by Epicurus
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17 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

Unfortunately the politicians are nothing more than employees of foreign interests....from a ways back considering macedonia was allowed to be used by the skops since 1993 after getting approval from the elder Mitsotakis....pretty embarrassing how our politicians back down in every situation and then try to present it as a victory....doesn't matter whether they're left wing or right wing....just a bunch of effing pussies.

OK, may I ask what would you have done 27 years ago?

[I'm also trying to figure out those "foreign interests"..... why would they support the Slavs instead of the Greeks?]

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On 4/10/2018 at 10:11 PM, Molon Lave said:

Here is a good proof on why that country should be called VARDARSKA: 

 

YwrcTZWdxwvdGho-800x450-noPad.jpg?151471

Stamp from 1939...  

Communist leader, Tito, renamed it Macedonia and Greece said nothing then.

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I hear you, but you're not saying anything new, and you're not saying what you'd have done 30 years ago when these people wanted a new independent country away from Serbia (Yugoslavia) and invented a long lineage to boost their case.  You'd probably have done exactly what all the previous Greek govs did..... reject anything with the name "Macedonia."  Here we  are today with a deal that denotes the geographical area, and hopefully this will be added to the already established name (and language) of Macedonia.

The only other solution is to invade and occupy (maybe ethnic cleanse?) that country. The whole world has moved on and has already recognized them.

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11 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

The inverse also applies here....saying that they are northern macedonia (the "northern" will be dropped just like the "former yugoslav republic" and "FYROM" was dropped) implies that they have territorial claims to parts of Greece....and when you look at the neighbors in the region its a shitstorm waiting to happen.

I hear you, but you're not saying anything new, and you're not saying what you'd have done 30 years ago when these people wanted a new independent country away from Serbia (Yugoslavia) and invented a long lineage to boost their case.  You'd probably have done exactly what all the previous Greek govs did..... reject anything with the name "Macedonia."  Here we  are today with a deal that denotes the geographical area, and hopefully this will be added to the already established name (and language) of Macedonia.

The only other solution is to invade and occupy (maybe ethnic cleanse?) that country. The whole world has moved on and has already recognized them.

If they have territorial claims any name you come up with won't change their minds. Would it?

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12 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

.the job of diplomats is to find the territory between these 2 extremes and it would have been an easy job 30 yrs ago to do so. Again today the skops are the ones who are seeking entry into the EU and NATO....they should be making concessions not Greece.

I think they have found the territory between the 2 extremes...  But, please tell me what you would have done. I assume you'd say no to anything "Macedonia." Fine. Well, they did it 30 years ago, and they've managed to be accepted by the international community and even Greece's partners/allies. What would be your options?  EU and NATO, the US, UN all seem to be fine with this "New Macedonia" name and all think that FYROM made all the concessions and Greece is being unreasonable.  You would do what now?

 

[Greece did what you are suggesting: no "Macedonia" name anywhere. Well after 30 years, here we are....]

Edited by Epicurus
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I don't think the Skopjans asked Greece about the name 27 years ago. So there was nothing to negotiate, nothing on the table so to speak.

The vast majority of Greeks don't want Skopje to use "Macedonia" in a name. But, I really don't see what Greece would have done. OK, maybe better diplomacy....  Effective diplomacy usually requires bargaining power...

Internally, Skopje leaders couldn't give in regarding the name. They were willing to lose economically by going against Greece, though the other important players who could have pressured FYROM began to lose interest over the years, and now the big players see Skopje gov as the responsible one who has made concessions regarding the name.

....

PS>If a country has territorial claims against another, names don't matter, as they don't change anything.

PS2>Could it be said that Greece has territorial claims if it considers Macedonia only Greek? [I don't think Greece does, but for the sake of argument...]

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^^^^^

I'd have no problem if they called themselves "Salvomacedonian".... But, again as many have said already, they didn't, and Greece for decades has been rejecting anything/everything that had "Macedonia" in a name.  I'm old enough to remember discussing the same point in the 1990s, that no word "Macedonia, Macedonja, or SalvoMakedonia" was acceptable to most Greeks and their gov. Those of us in the minority then were being called names for suggesting this very name or any name the showed that "Macedonia" was not Greek.  Macedonia was only Greek--as many still suggest.  

[Do those Greeks who don't want anyone else Macedonian mean that all Macedonia is only Greek?]

In the 30 years since, Greece lost the game....  Now you say the sacred ..word is acceptable to you for them to use if it starts with "Slavo"....  

I'm guessing that if the North M is rejected by Greece now, that country will be known as simply Macedonia.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 10:15 PM, AchillesHeel said:

I'm no expert on the history of the area but it was in the 1930s that the name first started being used for Skopje. At the time it was under Nazi rule and later fell under communist rule and Tito continued to use the name for the region....obviously there were no discussions over the name and nothing could be done about it then. When communist Yugoslavia fell and the region seceded they decided to use Macedonia based on the fact that they were able to use it when the world was divided in 2 distinct spheres.

I'm no diplomat either but I think a 12 yr old can come up with better ideas to be able to discern between greek and slavic "macedonia"....I mean northern Greece is referred to nowadays as Greek Macedonia so why wouldn't they be called the republic of Slavomacedonia...and their language called Slavomacedonian. Is that to much? how about they spell the name in english the way they pronounce it : Makedonija....there are many different options that could have been taken but mysteriously weren't even suggested.... and it was up to Greece to protect their own interests...why would the EU or NATO give a crap about all this?

 

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3 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

I get the sense that many people on this forum think that this view is rightwing propaganda but I don't espouse any political beliefs....at all....and sorry but there was never any talk of all Macedonia is Greece by anyone (well I don't know where XA stands on this but they're just a bunch of bozos).

It's not that.  It's just that I can't be bothered with the screaming match this can easily turn into.

As for how this plays out, it's hard to say.  I can't see a referendum passing so I can't see a resolution.

As for the name itself I've never really cared for it per se.  The part that bothers is the appropriation of history.  If you want to call yourself Macedonian because that's the part of the world you live in, pfft, yeah if you like deluding yourself go for it.  But when that extends into irredentism, falsification of history etc. then that is unacceptable.

What will they teach their school children now ?  I assume they'll have to change the syllabus ?

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