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2 hours ago, ELLAS75 said:

Actually in your last statement it was your democratic party that condoned slavery. Go back and look at your facts epi. 

The Dem party is not my ancestors nor do I care to defend what conservatives did generations ago under whatever name. It's a shame that the progressive party, the Republican, betrayed its values when was bought by big money and gave home to religious nuts, bigots, and racists.

But, since you ELLA apparently believe in "original sin" (what Eve did that condemned all humanity), then I expect you to be a man and apologize for the following:

Do you know your ANCESTORS had slaves? Do you know that Greeks committed atrocities? Do you know your church abused poor people, raped children, and cooperated with the occupiers Ottomans?

I expect an apology from you for EACH of those offenses.

Edited by Epicurus
It's the fault of the talking snake
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And, then this magic box.. fixes everything needs fixing.  So the con-artist in chief, tells the cult members that he, only him, has the magic box. You have a problem with immigration, I will fix

Let Trump do his thing. He knows business better than anyone else. He has done more in 4 days than that bozo in 8 years

I said, As to the dance around the issues, some people are conservative first. The rest is finding ways to attack their opponents. If you are a conservative, you are religious; you have archaic ideas

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On 06/02/2017 at 3:46 AM, aek66 said:

an illegal immigrant can never take my job. never. i don't fear an illegal immigrant taking my job.

what i argue is that the illegal immigrant will take the job of a 1st/2nd generation mexican-american, a poor uneducated white/black person or another illegal immigrant. not only that, but if that illegal immigrant has an anchor baby, now the govt. purse opens up for them. should i even care about others' economic fates? i do.

 

this is why the 'occupy wall street' was a flimsy joke that collapsed under it's own weight. too many mixed messages that can't jive. to allow all in, harms the bottom of the pyramid. the poor white, black or latino. instead of facing the truth, we'll blame white privilege or racism? dreamland.

well, what about the poor white guy? that's who trump said will no longer be forgotten.

i'm all for protesting income inequality but i'm not for illegal immigrants.

I don't necessarily think you're wrong about inequality. Just like the brexiters will soon find out when you vote for chaos the people who suffer the most are the have nots. They don't have the means to adjust to the changing circumstances around them.

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45 minutes ago, ELLAS75 said:

Wow her English is almost as bad as the moron who runs Canada, lol...

Nothing more moronic than Drumpf, who knows ..words and uses terrific words to motivate other morons...

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2 hours ago, Epicurus said:

The Dem party is not my ancestors nor do I care to defend what conservatives did generations ago under whatever name. It's a shame that the progressive party, the Republican, betrayed its values when was bought by big money and gave home to religious nuts, bigots, and racists.

But, since you ELLA apparently believe in "original sin" (what Eve did that condemned all humanity), then I expect you to be a man and apologize for the following:

Do you know your ANCESTORS had slaves? Do you know that Greeks committed atrocities? Do you know your church abused poor people, raped children, and cooperated with the occupiers Ottomans?

I expect an apology from you for EACH of those offenses.

Silence of the lambs.....

 

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Anyone else surprised with this threatening statement by the Canadian Government? Sounds like there is legitimate concern over the NAFTA agreement and Trump administration. Definitely not a good start.

 

Ottawa warns Trump team of retaliation if border tariffs imposed

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/foreign-affairs-warns-trump-of-retaliation-if-border-tariffs-imposed/article33955105/

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News flash: 9 out of 10 of the stubbornly ignorant, superbly superficial, and logic-deficient, prefer sources, like Newsmax 

[Newsmax is a conservative Republican-oriented global news portal, whose website, Newsmax.com, has more than 13 million readers a month.[1] It is run by wingnut hack and conspiracy theorist[2] Christopher Ruddy.]

 

Anyone who quotes anything from such sources proudly displays their ignorance as a badge. Well done, drones.

 

 

Edited by Hudson
in-credible loudmouths flock together
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9 hours ago, 1789 said:

He's accusing conservatives of "dancing around issues" and of "finding ways to attack their opponents" instead.

@Epicurus

Say what you may about religion, but the great Western/liberal values of tolerance and love you speak of originate with Judaeo-Christian beliefs. "Judge not let ye be judged" is a Christian belief of tolerance. These beliefs didn't necessarily demonize interest on loans ("you may charge a foreigner interest") and certainly didn't demonize the ownership of private property ("thou shall not steal"). Christianity also emphasized charity and taking care of the needy. In other words, Judaeo-Christian values are for the most part pro-capitalism and pro-private enterprise, and that helped make America the freest and most prosperous country on the planet.

Surely, you can't be serious about Western values resting on Judeo-Christian values...  Unless, you, like other Xtian apologists pick and choose certain passages to justify what you want at the time. I could find you other passages in the holy book that contradict whatever you find, which is also a strong indication that the Bible was written by several men over long time, with lots of disagreements about important events and details.

Xtian Tolerance? Com'on, dude. Anyone even with a shallow knowledge of history knows how vicious, murderous, bloodthirsty the Church has been. It comes all smiles today, because it wants us to forget the past, and because it has given so much in terms of power.

It's the Enlightenment (Age of Reason) that gave the west it's humanistic face, with tolerance, individual choice--which includes the right of free worship or no worship--freedom of expression, etc. while being fought tooth and nail by the church. And, yes, it mattered (still does) how the vast majority of the faithful and their leaders understand their religion and practice it.

Capitalism? It was the liberals (like Adam Smith), children of the Enlightenment, who in promoting individual rights also advocated for ind. economic rights. The Church for centuries was exploiting the people (serfs) often as the largest landlord under feudalism. So it was against capitalism or any system that would life the people out of poverty and ignorance. (I wonder why...)  Even until the 18th c.the Catholic Church condemned capitalism as evil. Only the Calvinists (Protestant "ethic") were very capitalistic, because they believed God had chosen them to be successful (how convenient).

Sorry, buddy, but you managed to pack so many inaccuracies (alternative facts?) in a couple short paragraphs. Remarkable.

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13 hours ago, ThrylosG7 said:

Interesting how your doing exactly what people accuse conservatives of doing...

I said, As to the dance around the issues, some people are conservative first. The rest is finding ways to attack their opponents. If you are a conservative, you are religious; you have archaic ideas about gender roles; you're uptight about anything sexual; you don't like individual choice if it's not what you do; you place law and order above fairness, tolerance and diversity.  And, and you believe in myths,from religion to the American dream that everyone has equal access to opportunity, and that blacks had it better under slavery.

I stand by it, and you're saying absolutely nothing to dispute it. You are a conservative above all, with the traits above. I am not doing what conservatives are doing, not by a long shot.  I'm allowing you to have individual choice, live your life the way you seem fit, believe whatever you want, disagree with me, have a subservient wife, observe your religious laws, and have discussions with your god. I don't care. Who's fighting to prevent individual choice? Who's fighting against freedom of conscience? heh?

But, I do care when you, and other religious, conservatives want the rest of us to do the same or stand by when your ilk wants take the country back to the dark ages.

But, what's new? This has always been the case with conservatives and the religious nuts who are hell-bent in forcefully saving us from hell.  Thanks but no thanks.

 

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31 minutes ago, Epicurus said:

Surely, you can't be serious about Western values resting on Judeo-Christian values...  Unless, you, like other Xtian apologists pick and choose certain passages to justify what you want at the time. I could find you other passages in the holy book that contradict whatever you find, which is also a strong indication that the Bible was written by several men over long time, with lots of disagreements about important events and details.

Xtian Tolerance? Com'on, dude. Anyone even with a shallow knowledge of history knows how vicious, murderous, bloodthirsty the Church has been. It comes all smiles today, because it wants us to forget the past, and because it has given so much in terms of power.

It's the Enlightenment (Age of Reason) that gave the west it's humanistic face, with tolerance, individual choice--which includes the right of free worship or no worship--freedom of expression, etc. while being fought tooth and nail by the church. And, yes, it mattered (still does) how the vast majority of the faithful and their leaders understand their religion and practice it.

...

The Protestant Reformation (16th c) split the Church again after the Cathol-Ortho split earlier. It's worth noting the barbaric treatment Xtians had for each other, even though some posters above would like us to believe the Church promoted a religion of peace.  :cowboy-004168:

I recommend everyone listen to Dan Carlin's "Prophets of Doom" (free podcast) to get a sense of the time following Luther's proclamation. Perhaps those who don't like to read could give this audiobook a try. 

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I'm having an existential crisis.  I always figured myself a liberal because well I'm not conservative so I must therefore be liberal.

And the other day, I see my two lesbian neighbours going for it, in the front yard and it just so happens I live opposite a high school.  I mean, they were getting pretty hot and heavy.  So I say, "Hey girls, maybe take it inside, school will be out soon".  And one of them (the butch one) turns to me and says "f**k you, I ain't breaking no laws".  I wasn't sure what to say to that.  She was scary when angry.

Maybe I am a conservative and never knew it.

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3 hours ago, ThrylosG7 said:

Also - the biggest one - he is generalising - when I talk about islam and Muslims though and immigrants well youve seen what happens...Conservatives though we are all whack jobs 

 

is there anything specific in his post that you disagree with though?

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2 hours ago, Bananas said:

I'm having an existential crisis.  I always figured myself a liberal because well I'm not conservative so I must therefore be liberal.

And the other day, I see my two lesbian neighbours going for it, in the front yard and it just so happens I live opposite a high school.  I mean, they were getting pretty hot and heavy.  So I say, "Hey girls, maybe take it inside, school will be out soon".  And one of them (the butch one) turns to me and says "f**k you, I ain't breaking no laws".  I wasn't sure what to say to that.  She was scary when angry.

Maybe I am a conservative and never knew it.

Would you be saying the same if it were two heteros doing it?

If so, then it's common decency that says there's a time and place for certain activities. It's not about being a conservative. But, a conservative wants to preserve the old traditions and way of life, you know, when blacks, women, homosexuals, etc, knew "their place." 

As Valentine's Day approaches, it's fitting to remember the Loving case. This bi-racial couple wasn't even allowed to hold hands because conservatives found it so abhorrent.  I know you're not like that (one of the most reasonable people here), but I just wanted to interject some perspective here.

 

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4 hours ago, aek66 said:

30+ years of the disease of political correctness. look at this article's title:

Overnight, the threat of deportation becomes a reality for Arizona mother

Caitlin Dickson Fri, Feb 10 5:11 AM 

ok, why isn't the headline:

Deportation for self-admitted felon and illegal alien Mexican mother.

does caitlin dickson work for mtv??

here's her whole piece of work -

https://www.yahoo.com/news/overnight-the-threat-of-deportation-becomes-a-reality-for-arizona-mother-131143991.html

But Obama deported 3 million people.  This is an article in the economist from 2014

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21595892-barack-obama-has-presided-over-one-largest-peacetime-outflows-people-americas

 

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The last defense of anyone who runs out of intelligent arguments is to claim immunity for their beliefs from criticism.

11820630_1629195010661997_747250651_n.jp

I respect everyone's right to have and express their beliefs, but I do claim my right to ridicule beliefs.

main-qimg-4d7e371342e21def3c2e1dcbd80abf

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8 hours ago, tantra129 said:

You should have offered an alternative solution that may have pleased all parties. That's how it goes down in the igloo. What happens in the igloo stays in the igloo.  Except the smokers. OUT,

The igloo of iniquity ?  Do you have hidden cameras installed ?  Where can I put my cigarette butts ?

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3 hours ago, Bananas said:

The igloo of iniquity ?  Do you have hidden cameras installed ?  Where can I put my cigarette butts ?

Throw them into the fireplace!   (Wait.... there may be a problem with this suggestion...)

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http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2017/02/07/trump-voters-await-economic-revival-rural-wisconsin/97585492/

This is a good article on the heartland Trump voters.  Financially struggling, can't afford health insurance, jobs all pay $12 hour etc.. This will be a tough problem to fix and I don't know how anyone can fix this.  Funny thing is that they don't care about immigration issues, they care about their pocketbook.  

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Com'on AEK66, you don't mean it only means that, right?

In the US individual choice is not about abortion only. Of course, the right to birth control, and abortion should be a woman's choice, but individual choice includes freedom of religion and from religion, pursuit of happiness (defined by the individual), freedom of expression, which includes criticism, individual choice in marrying a person of one's choice, access to information, free assembly and association, where to live, what to buy and eat, and I could go on and on.

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@athinaios speaking of code words, "states' rights" (same as "Southern strategy") and "religious freedom" (to name a couple), have been used to rouse certain groups and to describe discrimination and the limiting of choice.

Oh, what else?.... "welfare queen", "Sharia" "illegal alien", "un-American" (same as un-Australian), "moral majority" "restoring the moral fitness of America", etc.

Dog Whistle Politics by Ian Lopez explains more....

Note to mods and others: It's my religion--and you must respect that--which commands me to criticize the evil doers & promoters of ignorance, bigotry, and ..Satan, while at the same time I claim immunity from criticism for my own religious views!:military-325036:(and as an individual choice, I choose to arm myself and shoot down flying UFOs)

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I noticed Trump has changed on a couple things.  First about moving the embassy to Jerusalem and then his stance on "One China".  Complete 180.  All it has turned into is Mexicans and Muslims at this point, complete silence on repealing and replacing Obamacare.

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6 hours ago, aek66 said:

sure...but in the context of the post, it can only mean that.

if we include all else, this means we are debating from the radical liberals' side and we all acknowledge the current administration and conservatives as non-democratic, totalitarian, anti-constitutional and un-american.

as if, the current administration and conservatives are against freedom from religion, pursuit of happiness, freedom of expression, free movement, free assembly...etc...etc. we know that some posters feel this way, but i wouldn't give that argument credence by attempting to argue all their 'points'.

modern day liberals x conservatives; a freedom of choice debate has to mean abortion. those against abortion use 'right to life', those pro-abortion are 'pro-choice'. right to choose.

Why is there doubt about that? Conservatives, since the beginning of the US, have practiced anti-democratic policies, from slavery, to segregation, to preventing people to vote. Many, the religious nuts, would love a theocracy. The same people who bitch about the "war on xmas" and the poor Xtians, and want to impose their stone-age morality on the rest of us. Unconstitutional? Hell, yeah. Cons never liked the separation of church-state, they keep telling us that it's un-American not to be Xtian (do you really want quotes on this???) and follow the Judeo-xtian ethics (some  posters here have been saying this). And, they tell us this is a xtian nation. Bollocks! Have you read the US constitution? Or, the writings of the Founders?  In that sense, it is un-American to make such claims.

DELETED............

Edited by athinaios
unnecessary..
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