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Should Britain Leave EU?  

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  1. 1. Should Britain Leave EU?


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Ποιο disaster ρε φίλε! Παρά τα προβλήματα της, η Ευρώπη παραμένει παγκοσμίως ιδανικός τόπος, στους περισσότερους τομείς, πχ κοινωνική πρόνοια, δημοκρατία, προστασία περιβάλλοντος, ευνομία, ανθρώπινα δ

What he "forgot" to say was: "I can support Boris and Farage all I want, and I can say whatever the F*** I want (as I do), but if no deal Brexit turns out to be a disaster, and the country goes down t

^^^^ One of the most incredulous arguments I've seen here (and heard in many gatherings of Greeks)... What kind of an excuse is this? Don't give me money because I don't know how to handle i

On 11/21/2016 at 2:59 PM, King_Katsouranis said:

.. Farage though, he is a racist no two ways about it.  Look at the definition of racist, then see Farage's comments about Romanians and "Chinks". The guy is just an a**hole all round. He is no friend of the working man like he claims.
 

Yeah? But he doesn't admit he's a racist. In the good ol' days, they would admit it as a badge of honor.

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I was born and raised in England but have been living abroad for four years. I was in the middle at the time of the referendum but after experiencing other countries I can understand why the British wanted out. I think it's for the best.

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^^ In order for there to be a union, conditions in member states should be the same, if not at least similar. I lived in Germany for just over three years and I can confirm that the life there is so easy. Work is everywhere to be found, there is a good health system, there is multi-cultural society that lives well with each other. Conditions are similar in England as they are in places like the Netherlands and Belgium. The standard of living is high, bureaucracy is low and the environment is generally safe.

Here is Italy, it is the complete opposite of Germany. Sure if you have a job then you can live quite comfortably but the conditions are still not the same. Not many people have a normal contract. They are restricted to roll-on year contract, which guarantees no security. The reason for this is, of course, economic as well as the fact that it is very difficult to fire someone in Italy. Bureaucracy here is a joke, it is on par with Greece.

So, what we have is a union with various member states who are completely difference culturally, economically and politically. "So let's try and pass EU laws". OK, sure but what if those laws actually make the situation locally much worse? What if a country is already so advanced, introducing this law would slow it down or just be an obstacle? The EU leaves no room for discussion either.

Then we have the issue of immigration. Now then, before you forge an image of Athens4 I can tell you that I am of mixed heritage (Greek and English) and that I left the UK four years ago to try and live in different parts of Europe. I love meeting new people and traveling and and and. You get the picture. I find it unacceptable for there to be a union yet populations of member states to feel the need to have to - or even want to - move to either Germany or England. It is understandable as there are many jobs in these countries. But if we were a union then we would ensure that all member states were on the same, if not similar levels. And this just isn't the case. Roll on Brexit and while we are at it bring on Grexit too. It is the only way Greece will see change.

 

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Thanks for the info, the idea of of a union itself I don't think is unfeasable, but obviously not all countries can compete on the level, and like you said laws that might be good for some could hurt others. 

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Thank you, Athens4 for the good post.

Conditions, in my opinion, don't have to be the same, though minimum standards are necessary. I think it goes back to the formation of the modern state, appearing in the 16th c, but really forming in the 18th c. What makes people transfer allegiance from clan, to tribe, to state? It could be myths, aspirations, but above a beneficial relationship.

Notions of citizenship, nationalism, patriotism, are forged over time and the relationship between the rulers and the people is based on benefits for both. For thousands of years, people were subjects not citizens.

It may surprise you that after the Am. Revo most people identified as citizens of their particular states. The Articles of Confederation (like EU's governing rules) were ineffective. It took another decade to scrap those and write a new constitution that made the US a federal republic. But, it wasn't until the Civil War (1860) that "the US are" to "the US is".. (though some in the South are still fighting the CW.

If Euro states begin to see more benefits to cost, attitudes will change.   In a way, it's already true. Many Greeks hate the harsh measures but still think being in Europe with the Euro is better than going back to drachmas and isolation.

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@Athens4You have to ask them. Polls (OK, from last year) suggest most Greeks want to keep the Euro.

Are you asking me why Greece should keep the euro?

 

And, by the way, being in the EU isn't necessarily synonymous with common currency. A few members have kept their national currency. Though I'm not sure Greece could now go back to the drachma without major pains.

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There are a couple of reasons which I've read about.  They are worried about currency devaluation if they go back to the drachma.  In addition there is a belief that the politicians and elite won't do a better job at improving things if Greece had its own currency.  I suppose there is also the trauma of how exactly this would happen in the face of a hostile EU.  Look at England for example where it does have its own currency and they're talking about a 2 year period minimum to exit the EU and I think it will actually be longer.  What of Greece where entire financial systems would have to be rebuilt ?  Not to mention the fact that Greek bureaucracy is of a low standard.

The currency devaluation reason is kind of ridiculous as it would affect those Greeks who are very well off a lot more than the middle class and the poor.  And besides there already has been a devaluation of everything in Greece anyway, except that it's been done by deflation of the money supply as opposed to a currency devaluation.  It's not as if Greek assets are worth the same today as they were in 2008.  First world economies FREAK OUT if they have say 1% deflation and in Greece it's been 25%.

The other thing about a currency devaluation which could be a big problem is imports.  They could become prohibitively expensive.  But again this is a double edged sword.  If you can't afford to buy the overseas product, maybe you buy local.  Or if the local product doesn't exist (as is the case now in Greece with some industries) maybe this could be a driver for the local product to once again be produced to fill the gap in the market.  And if your currency is devalued other countries will start buying your products if they are a lot cheaper all of a sudden.  Business is business at the end of the day.

Maybe the people in Greece are worried that if they go on an around the world holiday that they'll have to slum it in 4 star hotels instead of 5 star hotels ?  Or maybe they're just worried about how to get the next meal on the table in which case currency devaluation is probably the last thing on their mind.

The youth, a whole generation is virtually lost and those that can flee are fleeing.  Sad to see.  Terrible.

As for the belief stated that the politicians and elite won't do a better job at improving things if Greece had its own currency, it's hard to say.  I can understand the cynicism of the Greek citizens entirely but at the same time I can understand their cynicism towards the EU who are no better.

For myself, Greece would be MUCH better off going back to the drachma BUT BUT BUT BUT it would have to be done so very carefully and methodically and I just don't know if Greece as a nation has the systems in place to do it and if the people have the stomach for the short term chaos that could ensue.

The next 5 to 10 years will be interesting.  If Greece can slowly begin to improve, if only marginally, then any calls for Euro exit will probably subside.  If say Greece needs a 4th and possibly 5th bail out and things have not improved at all then the calls for Grexit will be strong both in Greece and Europe.  We shall see.

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First, let's separate emotions (like "I hate the EU & IMF") from facts, and ideological preferences (anti-EU) from available choices.

So, the short answer is.... Greece should do what it its interest but also what it can afford. In other words, the remedy cannot be worse than the treatment. 

Based on what I know, Greece cannot afford to go back to the drachma. Shedding the debt and loans, sounds great, but bankruptcy means no more $$, and they'd have to import anything they need (oh, and they need just about everything) with a deeply devalued drachma, because I assume the country doesn't export enough goods (to raise hard currency) in order to buy what it needs, from fuels, to foods.

I'll write more later....

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On 18/02/2017 at 5:38 PM, athinaios said:

First, let's separate emotions (like "I hate the EU & IMF") from facts, and ideological preferences (anti-EU) from available choices.

So, the short answer is.... Greece should do what it its interest but also what it can afford. In other words, the remedy cannot be worse than the treatment. 

Based on what I know, Greece cannot afford to go back to the drachma. Shedding the debt and loans, sounds great, but bankruptcy means no more $$, and they'd have to import anything they need (oh, and they need just about everything) with a deeply devalued drachma, because I assume the country doesn't export enough goods (to raise hard currency) in order to buy what it needs, from fuels, to foods.

I'll write more later....

You are thinking way too short term.

The effects of sticking with euro or leaving it are pretty similar in my opinion. Leaving it may be slightly worse IN THE SHORT TERM. However, in the long term things would be much brighter with a new drachma. Some people may ask, "Why doesn't Greece ditch the euro and take on the drachma again then?" One answer is that this would indeed cause chaos. Greece itself would probably have a setback of 20 years or so, while a brain drain would make the country suffer even more (not that many smart people haven't left the country already). The golden answer, however, is that no government would have the courage to take responsibility for the next 15 years of poverty. That's all what it comes down to. The current and past generation having to (unfortunately) suffer now so that their kids and grandchildren will have a better future.

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If I don't kill you, I'll put you in a coma for the next 25 years. If the latter, you'll wake up in time to really die, but you'll be happy to see your grand kids having a better future.:boom:

And, if  Greece turns into a Third World country, hey, you can't go any lower, the only way would be up.:cheerleading-151859:

I hear you, though. I just have a hard time accepting any treatment that can be worse than the disease.

I'm rich, I'm really, really rich. Believe me. I can buy my own country, but it'd be too much of a trouble for me. So, instead, I'll pay off Greece's debt. I'll do that after they follow your advice and they leave the EU and drop the Euro, of course.

Sooooo, now no debt and no memorandum!  YEAH! Life is good!!:fish-805431:  (maybe too good?)

 

Now, how soon do you think Greece would be in same predicament as now?

 

The cure to Greece's ailments is not go back to the drachma. It had the drachma for about 2 centuries.... (just saying)

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You are talking about mentalities in Greece. Politics, the people of Greece, society etc and I completely agree with you. In order for the successful re-implementation of the drachma, politics and people's mentality would need to change as well.

Thing is, I think starting from scratch is the only hope there is of people finally changing.

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We agree. No matter what currency they use, if they don't get their own affairs in order, Greece ain't recovering.
A sad but accurate description of the state of affairs is the "Super League".... Look how they've "managed" it.... Do you think without any UEFA supervision it would've been better? I mean I don't know, but I seriously doubt it. 

The sports leagues are run entirely by Greeks, right?

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  • 1 year later...

A full 2 years after we voted to leave EU, the UK are still fully paid up members of the EU, like I said at the time the EU do not respect democracy and the UK government has no desire to leave, another wonderful illustration of how voting changes nothing.

I'm sure the academics on here will try to educate me and explain all the technicalities involved and deals and scenarios and border issues and people not knowing what they were voting for etc etc etc, but regardless of how you dress it up we will never be allowed to leave.

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  • 8 months later...

The 29th of March came and went and low and behold the UK are still fully paid up members of the EU, gee I never saw that coming, who would of thought? Especially after Treeza said and reiterated that we're leaving on the 29th March(I'm sure she tried her best despite voting and campaigning for the UK to remain). 

Democracy in action, European style. Just ask the Irish the French and the Dutch that all had referenda ignored by this organisation.

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On 7/5/2018 at 4:27 AM, js1000 said:

I'm sure the academics on here will try to educate me and explain all the technicalities involved and deals and scenarios and border issues and people not knowing what they were voting for etc etc etc, but regardless of how you dress it up we will never be allowed to leave.

Since you ask....

When you marry you basically sign a contract. You can leave by negotiating who gets what. If you want to still have a relationship with your former spouse, you have to negotiate. You can say, I like to still eat dinner but don't want to pay... Your Irish, Scottish children that you want to keep under control still want to be in the family of your ..spouse. Wouldn't that complicate matters?

The UK can leave tomorrow morning, bright and early, but they'll be no deal with the EU. That'd be a hard Brexit.  Many in the Torry party want that.

As for democracy, it takes informed leaders and citizens to function. This is a complicated issue, and many, including some here, don't want to examine it closely--it takes time and effort to understand complicated stuff... It's simplistic (and irresponsible if you had to vote on it) to treat the EU membership like a gym membership.... where you can stop going to the gym at any time.  

Also, very important decisions, like amending the constitution say, require more than a simple majority. And, when you go that route, you should have a road map, a plan for what you're doing....  PM Cameron and his Brexiteers never did. The lied and promised a glorious UK outside the "leeches of the EU and their people"...

For many it comes down to animosity against the EU--greater European integration. Of course, they like they can have all the benefits and travel to the EU, but they don't like the reverse, from the EU.  They may also believe that Britons pay too much into the EU and take too many immigrants (not true but, heck, it's like Trump's fiction that sells..MBGA)

Edited by Epicurus
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.  PM Cameron and his Brexiteers never did. The lied and promised a glorious UK outside the "leeches of the EU and their people"...

PM Cameron campaigned to stay in, in fact he tried to terrify voters by saying leaving would be disastrous and the government spent £9m sending leaflets to every house urging people to vote remain. He left because he lost the vote and his position  became untenable, so they replaced him with May who also voted and campaigned remain.

Talking of lies remainers(who are the overwhelming majority in parliament and media) have said a no deal Brexit would lead to

Food shortages

Mass unemployment

Diabetics dying off because of no insulin

The port of Dover will seize up

The Irish will start killing each other again in Belfast

The £ would become worthless

The NHS will run out of doctors

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For many it comes down to animosity against the EU--greater European integration. Of course, they like they can have all the benefits and travel to the EU, but they don't like the reverse, from the EU.  They may also believe that Britons pay too much into the EU and take too many immigrants (not true but, heck, it's like Trump's fiction that sells..MBGA)

 At present I'm able to travel to Morocco the US Israel Turkey etc. you're not seriously suggesting a no deal Brexit would prevent me being able to travel to France or Belgium that's just ridiculous. 

As for paying too much for all the wonderful benefits of membership I think £54m per day is far too much but that doesn't matter what matters is people voted out you can call it Trump fiction because you didn't like the outcome. 

Quote

As for democracy, it takes informed leaders and citizens to function. This is a complicated issue, and many, including some here, don't want to examine it closely--it takes time and effort to understand complicated stuff... It's simplistic (and irresponsible if you had to vote on it) to treat the EU membership like a gym membership.... where you can stop going to the gym at any time.  

Ok so it's not democracy because people were not informed, so what was the point of a referendum if people aren't informed enough to make the 'correct' choice and the outcome will just be ignored? 

Funny how I knew straight after the vote that it would be blocked. 

 

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On 4/1/2019 at 1:32 PM, js1000 said:

 At present I'm able to travel to Morocco the US Israel Turkey etc. you're not seriously suggesting a no deal Brexit would prevent me being able to travel to France or Belgium that's just ridiculous. 

As for paying too much for all the wonderful benefits of membership I think £54m per day is far too much but that doesn't matter what matters is people voted out you can call it Trump fiction because you didn't like the outcome. 

Ok so it's not democracy because people were not informed, so what was the point of a referendum if people aren't informed enough to make the 'correct' choice and the outcome will just be ignored? 

Funny how I knew straight after the vote that it would be blocked. 

 

You keep building straw men to make your points...  I didn't suggest "you" wouldn't be able to travel to Europe or Morocco... But as Britons liked open borders for them, they didn't like the reverse; didn't like eastern Europeans or.. Moroccans. Immigration was the top concern of 1/3 of those who voted for Brexit.

Another straw man:  Criticizing outcomes democracies produce as somehow not allowed! Yes, I'm saying the people made an ill-informed decision. It was not the first time nor will it be the last  A top Google search after Brexit: "What's the EU?" What, people can't be led to make bad decisions?  No matter what party/leader you prefer, you do say people made the wrong choice when they voted for those "you" did not support! Right?

Secondly, who the hell said, ignore "what the people said"?! Why can't the EU tell UK that, you leave you lose... You lose the trade privileges. You loose the markets the EU has negotiated access with other nations... etc. You want to leave, just go. It's been the Brits who are negotiating KEEPING their privileges.  

Thirdly, where did you come up with the notion the EU is blocking Brexit? Unless it's perverse logic you're employing... Oh, I'd leave the house but you're preventing me from leaving because you're not giving me money! Or, I'll go but still want to come in an enjoy the privileges of this household. Or, that I want to live on my own but maintain a room in your house! If you want to leave, just go. It's very similar to Tsipras's referendum...  (are you arguing that the EU denied Greeks their choice? Puleez. Greece could have left the EU the next day if it wanted...   Oh, but they (EU) wouldn't give us the money we needed to do that!   haha, I say.  Childish threats..)

As for the Irish problem, I didn't say the new border will result in violence, but it won't help. A key solution to the old conflict was integration of the two communities, starting by removing physical barriers between Northern Ireland and the country of Ireland. In a common market that's easier done, but with Brexit the border will return in order to control the flow of goods and services. They haven't figured out how to solve this....  Which is a point I keep making here: Cameron and May triggered a process without having a good plan of HOW to leave the EU. A hard Brexit is always an option. It's Britain that doesn't want that!

I also think democracies can still flourish if some important and very complicated decisions, like amending the constitution, etc, are NOT done by a slim majority, over a short time, and without a clear roadmap.

 

Edited by Epicurus
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Thirdly, where did you come up with the notion the EU is blocking Brexit? 

The UK government doesn't want to leave hence campaigning to remain, and has no intention of leaving. The EU doesn't want the UK to leave and has a history of ignoring referenda. Was obvious from the start it wouldn't be allowed to happen because neither side wanted it, apart from the voter of course but they don't matter.

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 Another straw man:  Criticizing outcomes democracies produce as somehow not allowed! Yes, I'm saying the people made an ill-informed decision. It was not the first time nor will it be the last  A top Google search after Brexit: "What's the EU?" What, people can't be led to make bad decisions?  No matter what party/leader you prefer, you do say people made the wrong choice when they voted for those "you" did not support! Right?

I understand leaving is bad for Briton as you've so eloquently outlined(despite bizarrely thinking Cameron was a Brexiteer) however you either respect democracy or you don't. Criticise the choice made by all means as you believe it's the wrong one which is your right of course but to in someway justify it being overturned is plainly wrong and undemocratic.

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Cameron and May triggered a process without having a good plan of HOW to leave the EU. A hard Brexit is always an option. It's Britain that doesn't want that!

Because they had no intention of leaving, which I said pretty much straight after the vote, besides Cameron didn't for a minute think he'd lose that vote. A 'hard Brexit' is what British people voted for, the Politicians and mouth pieces in the media don't want that, neither does the EU.

Very similar to the democrats in the US, they didn't like the outcome and Trump being elected so they scream Russia conspiracy to try and get it overturned. I understand life in the US would be much better under Hilary however you have to respect the vote or accept people are too stupid to make the correct choice and give up on democracy, like we have in Britain.

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I also think democracies can still flourish if some important and very complicated decisions, like amending the constitution, etc, are NOT done by a slim majority, over a short time, and without a clear roadmap.

It was very clear, crystal clear, leave without a deal on WTO terms because that's what was voted for, this 'hard' 'soft' 'deal' 'roadmap' rubbish was introduced later as a way of delaying stalling and stopping Brexit altogether which has been achieved. 

Quote

You keep building straw men to make your points...  I didn't suggest "you" wouldn't be able to travel to Europe or Morocco... But as Britons liked open borders for them, they didn't like the reverse; didn't like eastern Europeans or.. Moroccans. Immigration was the top concern of 1/3 of those who voted for Brexit.

You have know way of knowing that 1/3 had immigration as a top concern. Britons are not in the schengen area and do not enjoy open borders, only with the Republic of Ireland does Britain have an open border where you can fly to Ireland without a passport. And it's their absolute right to not want other nationals to be allowed to live and work in the UK without being accused of being racist barefoot knuckle dragging dungaree wearing morons(which is pretty much what is being suggested in the media here) hence their vote should be ignored.

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