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Should Britain Leave EU?  

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  1. 1. Should Britain Leave EU?

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I haven't really been following this. Is there a chance Brexit could actually happen ? It would be huge blow to the EU project. It's interesting that all the "serious" commentators paint Brexit as a financial disaster. I'm not in a position to judge the financial implications, but for myself, the fact that the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and unrepresentative entity, the answer is GTFO now. A big OXI for me.

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If they leave, it will have a devastating impact on the British economy since their market is without the EU only of minor importance. Just look at Norway or Switzerland for that matter. They're not part of the EU but still have to accept the EU regulations in order to trade with Europe.

Britain's biggest trading partner is still the EU and considering that the EU has much more political and economical weight than Britain, they can dictate the trading conditions to their own favor.

But there's more to that than economical risks. Scottish nationalists already announced that a Brexit would lead to a new debate about whether or not Scotland should leave the UK. That's not really a surprise if you take into account that Scotland gets tremendous financial support by the EU. Therefore the Scotts have an interest to stay. As well as the British.

Btw, the majority of Greeks (not talking about the Greek diaspora) wants to stay in the EU and rightly so. If you want an example of how much of a third world shithole Greece would have been without the money of the EU just have a look at FYROM and Albania.

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When a referendum was last held the majority of Greeks (61%) gave Tsipras backing to reject the bailout terms. It meant Tsipras could have held his ground and Greece could possibly have been kicked out of the EU. Given that fact, Greeks have shown a willingness to leave in very recent history.


Albania and FYROM are precisely the way they are because of socialism. And they too were part of a union, Yugoslavia. They are certainly better for getting out of it. Although the EU isn't Yugoslavia, it may very well devolve into something similar. And even though Greece was in better shape than Albania while with the EU, the reality also remains that Greece was better off than Albania when Greece was without the EU. Being in the EU won't determine the fate of our prosperity. 


And are we to say nothing of ethics? Isn't it wrong to have other people from other nations paying for Greek debt? Isn't wrong that corporations and officials create crony deals for themselves?


I will also, is wealth redistribution the answer to Greece's problem or the source of it?


This issue ultimately comes down to this: do we want a small group of people controlling our destiny and for them to be divorced of checks and balances. And let's bear in mind another concern: what is to stop the EU from becoming something similar to the Soviet Union. The mass surveillance, the unelected bureaucracy, the increasing restrictions on free speech and assembly, etc. These are legitimate concerns.

Yeah, I knew someone would bring up that argument. I have to object.

The referendum wasn't about leaving the EU or the eurozone. In fact, the question was to accept or reject austerity. Tsipras told everyone to vote

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Greeks were aware of the implications. Tsipras folded, hence Greece didn't leave the EU.


Albania was, however, a socialist country. Albania's failures are due to socialism, it has nothing to do with it's sovereignty. And again, any nation formerly under Yugoslavia or under the Soviet Union is better off without their former unions.


The EU doesn't want European peoples to procreate. They want to take third world peoples, who have no problem procreating, to fill the gap, transporting an existing population rather than adding to an already huge global population of seven billion. In the long run they want to create a smaller, mixed race to diminish national identities.


I don't see why Greece can't turn to a sounder, more honest form of money as opposed to a central bank/treasury fiat currency like the drachma or the euro. And Greece is free to trade with whoever they want by leaving the EU. By staying they can only trade with countries the EU decides to trade with and under the terms dictated by the EU.


The fact of the matter is the EU does whatever it wants with Greece already. Right now Greece is a doormat for invading migrants and must endure austerity to receive bailouts in their name, when in reality its for the lenders who should never have given Greece money to begin with.


Global influence by what means? War? Isolationism as in that which is practiced by the socialist North Koreans? If Britain doesn't interfere in the affairs of other countries by means of force, encourages trade with partners willing to meet them on reasonable footing, and is willing to give a meaningful voice to it's own people rather than shutting that voice down in the name of some off-shore bureaucracy would that really seal their economic and political downfall?

No, that's still not true. The main goal was to negotiate with the Eurogroup and to have better austerity conditions, not to leave the EU for good. That's just what you interpreted.

Do you even realize that if Greece leaves, it would still have to accept the trading conditions of the EU? Do you realize that even Turkey could turn the trading conditions with Greece to their favor if it wasn't for the EU?? And finally, do you even consider that Greece has to pay much higher customs without the EU?

There is no economical benefit of a Grexit. I hope you are aware of that. Greece is too small and insignificant to negotiate good trading terms for themselves without the EU. They're just a small fish.

Let aside the billions that are floating into the Greek infrastructure to build motorways like the Egnatia Odos. Even the Turks envy us for such good streets. Founded by the EU.

No, your argument about the former Yugoslavian countries being in a better situation now is also debatable. Bosnia is a failed state and didn't recovered from the break up ever again. It has become the poorest country in the Balkans now. Montenegro doesn't even have an official currency, they use Euros instead. Same goes for Kosova, so much about their "independence" making it better for them. Croatia and Slovenia already joined the EU while Serbia and FYROM are still trying to get into it. Why do you think that is?

Seems like their "sovereignty" isn't that beneficial huh.

Btw, global influence doesn't mean that you need a strong military to have it although I'm not even talking about the military aspect. I'm talking about economical power, but I guess you didn't quite get what I mean. So I let the figures speak for me.

Population EU 508 million - Population UK 60 million - Population GR 11 million

GDP EU 19.2$ trillion - GDP UK 2.6$ trillion - GDP GR 287.11$ billion

Guess which one of the three has enough power to enforce their trading conditions on other countries around the globe.

It's the EU. The UK can't do that. It's too small. And Greece... well, without the EU Greece is almost insignificant. And talking about Greece... you blame the EU for the austerity??? Greece got itself into this situation. Year after year they wasted so much money given by the EU and now it's the EU's fault? No, Greece and only Greece is to blame for their lamogia.

Considering the migrant crisis the British should better keep their mouth shut. They had attacked Iraq and Lybia while Germany has not. Still, it's only Germany who's taking the refugees, while "Not so Great Britain" does nothing but complain. That's just as ridiculous as the whole EU-exit discussion.

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The majority of people in Norway and Switzerland are happy with their current trade deals with the EU and are against joining.


You cannot say the UK is too small to stand outside the EU, it is much larger than those two nations.

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The Brexit debate is really hilarious. 

Both sides are spouting pure lies to win votes. There are some solid arguments for both remain and leave, but no we get immigration from one side and then we get "THE TORIES ARE TRYING TO KILL OFF OUR RIGHTS" from the other side. 

I was going to vote for a Brexit, but I will probably not vote or vote for remain in the end. This is based on the pure fact, that the Brexit side is making a load of noise, but they are all divided on what the resolution going forward is. It's one thing to vote out, and it's another to vote for a plan if there is a Brexit. 

@Koro, I disagree with you.  The standard Brexit argument goes something like "We don't want to send

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It's true that it was Tsipras' goal to get better terms and to return to the negotiating table, but the implications were broader. The EU set the initial terms as final, Greece couldn't renegotiate, and if Greece disagreed, Greece was out. This is what I wrote (emphasis added):



The implication was that it may have meant leaving the EU.


This is a fact:

There are a lot of mays and speculation and what ifs. I agree that we don't know what exactly happened behind closed doors.

Btw, does anyone think the Brexit is still possible now that an extremist has murdered Jo Cox, who was officially against the Brexit? I honestly doubt it.

The majority of people is more affected by emotions than anything else. Seeing a mother of two children being gunned down and slaughtered because she was against the Brexit is the biggest own goal you could have made.

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There is no way they will be allowed to leave, they didn't let Greece leave which is in worse shape financially and is a mere bit player in the game so I doubt very much that the UK will be allowed to leave either.  They will fix the vote if they have to just like the did with the Scottish independence vote.

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Therein lies the problem most people go on emotion instead of using the brain in their head.  If they made a decision based on rational thought then they would see that the best course of action is to leave the EU.  What good has it brought to the people, especially the Brits who still use their own currency?!  Everything is more expensive, higher taxes, mass immigration, loss of sovereignty, I don't see anything good about this bureaucratic monstrosity!?

My brain told me a Brexit would be a terrible decision for the UK. Seems like I'm not using it the way you do.

Sovereignty..? Oh.. that reminds me of something.


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The EU as a basic concept has gone too far.  A lot of the basic concepts to help increase trade are good.  Having consistent environmental standard are good.  Avoiding trade wars is good.  But when the EU can say to one country "you're naughty, how about I stop giving you money until you do what I say" then it's gone way way way too far.  What the EU did to Greece just prior to the OXI vote was an abomination and should have outraged the nation.  I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, just years of the same.  In the future people will look back on this period as one of the darkest in our modern history.

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Looks like it's going to go down to the wire.  Having said that, if 50.01% of the population want to leave the EU, I don't know if that's enough of a majority given the magnitude of what is at stake.  Likewise, if 50.01% of the population want to stay, having 49.99% that don't want to be in the EU is not encouraging either.

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As someone who is left myself, I have noticed the same typical simplistic and predictable the reasons left wing remainers use.


"I don't like Farage or the other people on the leave campaign" - Probably the most trivial reason yet, but also one of the most common. There will probably be people you like and dislike on both sides and the fact that you are merely following the politicians you like suggests you are incapable of making your own decision. People close to Corbyn say they would have expected him to campaign for leave if he was still a back bencher, before the Blairite right wing of the Labour party whipped him into line. I wish Tony Benn was still alive to teach these kids why we cannot trust the EU.


"The EU helps workers rights" - While there are some EU laws that do protect workers rights, these laws are a very small issue in the wider context of the debate. I've seen politicians refer to these laws, but don't let them fool anyone, the EU works for the big businesses which constantly lobby European government in Brussels. The idea that the EU somehow stands up for the proletariat is a joke. For a recent example, look up what the EU said about how Uber wasn't breaching workers rights, despite often paying below minimum wage and workers working long hours.


"The Tories will still be in power if we leave" - Of course they will, we elected them, unlike the leaders of the EU. If we want to be able to make our important political decisions about issues like immigration in general elections, then our government needs to have the power to control such issues. Also often when I press these people and ask them how they would vote if Labour were in power, they often still say remain.


"The EU is bad, but we can reform it" - This is delusional talk and selling false hope. The EU and the EC before it has only ever moved in one direction and that is not in a left-wing direction. Nobody seems to have any clear idea how it can be reformed. That is because you cannot reform an organisation that you have little democratic influence over. You cannot take power away from leaders like Junker and Tusk and their neo-liberal agendas, that is the problem.


"I feel European"/"Europe should work together" - As someone who identifies as European, this is the point I do agree with in part. But my attachment to Europe is not good enough of a reason to overlook all the problems related to the EU. The EU does not stand up for the European people, they are just trying to use Pan-European nationalism to get support and push their policies. 

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Amazing result. Even as a Leave voter, I was not confident at all the leave would win, but I'm glad to be proved very wrong.


This is a victory for the neglected working-class communities in that are fed up with the establishment, pro-EU parties and the immigration they have been pushing. These are the forgotten people in Britain, left behind by Labour on immigration and hit hard by Tory cuts.


On the other side, look at who have been voting remain. Middle-class cosmopolitan lefty intellectuals who read the guardian, live in their London bubble, with their Muslim friends in the Labour party.

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No exit polls ?  Where is my tin foil hat ?  It seems I have misplaced it.


Exit polls work when you have a stats built up over years of successive elections. It's been, what, 41 years since this kind of referendum happened? Not enough data to make accurate predictions off of.

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