Jump to content
Phantis Forums

Brexit


Should Britain Leave EU?  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Britain Leave EU?


This poll is closed to new votes


Recommended Posts

No the bulk of the media coverage was not of favour in staying in. The Sun, Express, Daily Mail, Star and Telegraph to name a few were pro Brexit.  All television channels reporting news were neutral. The Sun and Mail being the most circulated newspapers in the country.  The conservative party was neutral on Brexit. Labour, Greens, Lib Dem, SNP in favour of remaining. UKIP, DUP in favour of Brexit.

http://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/news/study-shows-majority-press-coverage-eu-referendum-campaign-was-heavily-skewed-favour-brexit

The BBC is  neutral. If you ask a left winger, they will call it right wing. Ask a right winger, they will call it left wing.

The leave campaign put a note through my door highlighting Turkey, Iraq and Syria, something about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the end of the day, we can go back and forth on how democratic the EU is.  Maybe it's more democratic than we think (and probably more democratic than they'd like) but we'd be missing the point, which is that in reality it doesn't function democratically due to the unbalanced amount of influence Germany has over the EU.  Even France is now bullied by Germany these days.

 

As for having elected officials represent Greece (or any other country), what is the point ?  The discussions are not "democratic".  It's the EU (Germany) bossing the situation.  The EU has not covered itself in glory in the last few years and it's no surprise that many ordinary people look upon it with trepidation.

 "it doesn't function democratically due to the unbalanced amount of influence Germany has over the EU"

What do you mean?

That would be because most countries either agree with Germany or a bunch of pussies for not standing up to it. If more than a few disagreed with Germany they could stop the German agenda but they don't.  The French could quite easily, but they don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no actual figure determining the proportion of laws in the UK created by the EU. However, most sensible people not named Nigel Farage understand it's way less than half. So your post is already an embellishment, but it suits your agenda as someone on the other side of the Atlantic trying to explain what is going on in this country. This misinformation posted has been wildly inaccurate.  Washington has no relevance to this debate. I've already told you how the European Council is elected.

Cameron already negotiated out of ever closer political union, so AEP is just towing the Telegraph's line on Brexit.  


This no border s%$#! is also another myth regarding Brexit. Yeah okay fine for EU nationals they can move into the UK as they please. The UK is not part of the schengen, so the terrorists are going to homegrown like in 7/7.

To give you a simple example because I find your posts can sometimes be overly verbose. I'm sorry but what Marine Le Pen says is a hate crime. Malaria solving France's immigration problem, does that sound like  anything other than hate crime? However, she gets to see what ever she likes in that chamber of autocracy. Nigel Farage continually insults people, and he is allowed to continue? 

The British identity was never being diminished. I'm not debating the merits of the EU for continental states (even if I disagree with you), i'm debating the EU and the UK. The fact is for all the negatives the EU brings, it has allowed the UK to be turned from a post-industrial economy to a wealthy service economy in ways that would never have been possible without the four freedoms.  London is the financial capital of the world, and this is at risk unless access to the single market remains. 

Edited by King_Katsouranis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm no wordsmith but "Brussels is worse. You don't get to elect the council that decides the laws for a ceremonial EU parliament. Most of Britain's laws are passed by this council. "  suggests more than 50% which is an utter lie.  I told you previously i'm debating the UK and the EU, not for continental cases, so not certain of the relevance of your 80% figure in this debate. 

David Cameron negotiated out over ever closer political union. So for the UK the conspiracy theory about Brussels is irrational fearmongering.  Call them racist remarks, then I will call the attitude to towards Germany and the EU in this thread racist and divisive.  I wouldn't get involved in Texas, because it would be clear I don't understand the context. Which is what a lot of people are missing here.

Regarding Brits outside of London I do. You have people in Swansea, Cornwall, Sunderland and other shitholes voting against the biggest investor in the region, how is that anything other than idiotic? It's biting the hand that feeds you.  Have you ever been to Kent or Essex?   These are places with some of the lowest level of immigration in the country but have immigration as their main issue with the EU.

Sampling shows the lower the educational attainment, the higher the percentage of a leave vote in the UK.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36624413?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120&link_location=live-reporting-story



 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you even ever been to the UK? How do you know what these people are voting for? Every election in the last 30 years has been won by the side the Sun has endorsed,  they were simply doing as the Sun said.

These people voted for a Brexit because they are fed up with the UK's transition to  a service economy, and the consequences that come with them. Voting for  a Brexit is stupidity, Nisan one of the biggest employer in Sunderland is considering pulling out. I see things are so much better out of the EU....

If your statistics aren't a lie they are misleading. Out of the 40 percentage point band you decided that the 5 percent range was sufficient to conclude "most".

It's great you quote people from the 1940s, but like I said Cameron negotiated out of ever closer political union. Your point is better served in a general EU thread, rather than a thread about the UK and the EU. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No the bulk of the media coverage was not of favour in staying in. The Sun, Express, Daily Mail, Star and Telegraph to name a few were pro Brexit.  All television channels reporting news were neutral. The Sun and Mail being the most circulated newspapers in the country.  The conservative party was neutral on Brexit. Labour, Greens, Lib Dem, SNP in favour of remaining. UKIP, DUP in favour of Brexit.

http://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/news/study-shows-majority-press-coverage-eu-referendum-campaign-was-heavily-skewed-favour-brexit

The BBC is  neutral. If you ask a left winger, they will call it right wing. Ask a right winger, they will call it left wing.

The leave campaign put a note through my door highlighting Turkey, Iraq and Syria, something about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David Cameron f##### a pig went flying under the table at the BBC. For such a left wing organisation you thought they would have made a big deal, but they didn't. It didn't stop Dimbleby having the terms of the debate dictated to him by Boris Johnson did it?  I think you will find with Jo Cox there are mixed reports, and he gave his name in court to "Britain First... death to the traitors", gives credence to the reports that he  did indeed should Britain first. 

The Conservative Party's official position was neutral. What David Cameron adopted was not the official party position, which is why he let is cabinet campaign openly.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#Party_policies

In Financial terms of the budget the UK is a net contributor.  However, when accounting for the benefits through things like service passporting approximately

Edited by King_Katsouranis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is an interesting phenomenon that unfolds in England and in the US as well.  The unwashed do not care for the preferences of the upper class Brahmins and vote in patterns that the upper class does not approve or understand.  The answer of the upper class that knows everything and apparently understands nothing is to lecture the Luddites and to add fuel to the fire.  Let us look at the recent referendum in England.   We are told that

1)      The majority was misinformed, dumb, and egotistical while

2)      The proponents of the exit lied and misinformed the people.

 

while the learned analyses concerning the referendum do not address, as a rule, the following:

Why did the upper class that has both money and education fail to persuade the voters that the proponents of the exit were misrepresenting the facts and that the exit would be ruinous?

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting (in my opinion) article can be read at http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-27/get-ready-to-see-this-globalization-elephant-chart-over-and-over-again .  

 

An excerpt follows:

 

 

A chart first published in a 2012 World Bank working paper6

 by Economist Branko Milanovic details which segments of the global population saw a rise in real incomes from 1988 to 2008:

 

 

-1x-1.png

 

Globalization constituted a massive labor supply shock, allowing corporations to tap cheaper workers. The benefit to consumers in advanced economies took the form of downward price pressures on these goods. Along the way, however, the middle classes in developed nations failed to see this rising tide lift their boats.

"The biggest losers (other than the very poorest 5 percent), or at least the 'non-winners,' of globalization were those between the 75th and 90th percentiles of the global income distribution whose real income gains were essentially nil," according to Milanovic. "These people, who may be called a global upper-middle class, include many from former Communist countries and Latin America, as well as those citizens of rich countries whose incomes stagnated."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

So what is happening now? It appears that all the rats are jumping ship now that life in UK is becoming uncertain

Johnson a Bullingdon boy the same time as Cameron and Georgie boy was never really pro Brexit he always hinted at using this result to get a better deal and stay in, Farage had no chance of ever being in a position to negotiate Britains exit so quitting UKIP makes no odds.

 

I think a more appropriate description of "rats jumping ship' would be to describe those leaving Greece/Ireland/Portugal/Italy and Spain to look for work elsewhere as their own countries are all 'sinking' despite all being members of this wonderful club who have imposed austerity on them. And as members of the EU we can't stop them from coming to the UK and competing with us in the job market.

Its strange how people still want to come here and are not leaving despite 'life in the UK becoming uncertain' 

 

Besides like I said earlier the EU doesn't do democracy and has a history of ignoring referendums and the UK government has no desire to leave which is why they haven't triggered article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's like you're hellbent on making things up as you go along.

"Besides like I said earlier the EU doesn't do democracy and has a history of ignoring referendums and the UK government has no desire to leave which is why they haven't triggered article 50 of the Lisbon treaty."  Most of the ignored referendums were at a national level, but again more rubbish to forward your misinformed agenda.  I already showed you the EU's democracy, but you still can't make a relevant counter argument.  Re article 50 you're spot on.

On another note the delusional people here are in for a rude shock. WTO (likely default position of UK) will pretty much mean no tariffs on German cars into the UK. I'm sure that is a great negotiating position for the UK,  when the Germans can laugh off the negotiations knowing their default position is strong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 Most of the ignored referendums were at a national level, but again more rubbish to forward your misinformed agenda.  I already showed you the EU's democracy, but you still can't make a relevant counter argumen

When the Dutch and French voters rejected the EU constitution the EU changed it to a 'treaty' which was pretty much the same as the EU constitution, when this treaty - now the Lisbon treaty - needed to be ratified by Ireland Irish voters rejected it, so they were made to vote again until they voted correctly. 

No other EU state even bothered to give their people a referendum with regard to this treaty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michel Rocard died on July 2. At http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-politics-rocard-idUSKCN0ZI0VP one can read who he thought  concerning the British and the Brexit 

Rocard, a Socialist who served as prime minister under President Francois Mitterrand from 1988 to 1991, became an ardent European federalist, spending 15 years in the European Parliament until he resigned in 2009.

In 2014 he wrote a bitter criticism of Britain's role in the EU bloc - an article that resonates strongly after Britons voted 52 percent to 48 percent to leave the EU in a referendum on June 23.

"Get out of Europe before you wreck it," Rocard wrote then in the headline of an opinion piece published by Britain's Guardian newspaper and France's Le Monde.

 "You do not like Europe," he told Britons, blaming them for Europe's failures and accusing them of selfishness and an obsession with trade over the project for political unity.

"You never shared the true meaning of the project... always putting the national interest first - you reintroduced these ideas and made them contagious," he wrote.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Thanks, Obama: Nigel Farage says US president helped make Brexit a reality

During trip to the Republican convention the ex-Ukip leader said Obama's UK visit had backfired and politicians should not meddle in another country's affairs

 

''I shall always be grateful, eternally grateful to Obama because he came to our country, he was rude to us, he told us what we should do and he led to a big Brexit bounce of several points,'' the leading Brexit advocate said. ''So thank you, Obama, for helping us to win this referendum.''

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/20/nigel-farage-barack-obama-brexit-london-republican-convention

 

 

What a load of crap.

 

Might wanna move this post to the brexit topic... *

 

*(done)

Edited by athinaios
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, I say, the Brexit vote was going to win by 8 points but Obama made it much closer than that!. Who's right, Farage or I?.... :cw:

 

In my estimate what Obama said didn't make the slightest difference. Why would it? It's a European matter.  In some sense the US could argue against a united Europe....

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You say, "pushed us more"....  I don't doubt your estimate, but do you know anyone who was thinking of voting Remain and then said, oh, this guy Obama pissed me off and now I'll vote Brexit...    I just don't see it. The net result probably was no net effect. Now, I could see it if George W. Bush and Tony Blair said it...  :lol:

I'd agree the murder pushed a few people to vote Remain. But, think about it... why should such a thing do it? Any crazy person can do crazy things; it's not rational to change your vote based on such act. Whether remaining or leaving the EU should be determined by other factors, if voters weighted the facts carefully.

 

Most people are compelled and vote by identity politics. It's the story they tell themselves about themselves and their tribe, and then act upon this story. It's mostly emotional and the facts don't get in the way.   Britons, Americans, Greeks, etc all do it. The lack of factual information is stunning. 

 

"I'm not like that" I hear you're saying now. OK. I didn't say "all people" but most...

 

Europeans have to figure out what Europe means and what being a European means. Likewise with sections withing a country. Integration happens when most people accept a narrative ("the story") and see themselves as belonging to a particular tribe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

That is interesting re the Euro but it's insignificant. the GBP/USD pair is a better indicator, and so are currency baskets. All lower than the GBP/EUR low over the last five years. 

We indeed do have a remainer PM, in fact in three years time we will probably see that the UK are still in the EU.
 

 

A couple of years ago the

Edited by King_Katsouranis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

. The bankers will simply get up and go to Asia whilst the rest suffer. I suppose you remember when you didn't have 28 days (inc bank holidays) of paid leave, I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of thing returns.

Thats already happened mate with all these zero hour contracts, sports direct, amazon and starbucks all have horrific working conditions already, infact starbucks book their employees off duty during quiet periods and then back on again when it gets busy, they get away with it because of an infinite supply of cheap overseas labour, as for the bankers, the swine who time after time are embroiled in things like laundering drug money, fixing the LIBOR rate and being bailed when their gambles don't come off, they can piss off to Asia today as far as i'm concerned, no one will suffer if these swine go.

 

 

 

One of the easiest ways to get competitive will see real wages fall at the lower end. Which is what will happen,  you can change the narrative (by voting Brexit) but that becomes rather pointless when you don't change the author.

The Swiss and Germans have higher wages than us yet they are very competitive. Besides a BREXIT vote was in no way an endorsement of the current (or any) UK government.

 

 

 

We indeed do have a remainer PM, in fact in three years time we will probably see that the UK are still in the EU.

Make that 10 years time, they don't want to leave, the referendum is not legally binding and it was not legally binding for a reason. 

Edited by js1000
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure re zero hour contracts, the thing is it is going to get worse and worse for the average Brit. I can understand the discontent at the EU as a eurosceptic, but the UK government is not going make things better for the average Brit post Brexit (if it happens).

I agree with you regarding the bankers, but at this point the city is probably the best export this country has. If that goes, the tax revenues lost by HMRC are going to be significant. The answer to that is to regulate to a better and transparent standard, ironically Barnier tried to do that and the city told them to go do one...

Indeed, Germany, CH, Scandinavian nations all have higher wages and better competitiveness than the UK does. The reason for this is productivity, the UK is nowhere near as competitive. This will continue as long as property/rent remains the biggest overhead for a business, the incentive becomes to move into smaller space for British businesses. Whereas in the other countries they work on getting more out of labour and systems to support extra productivity. Reducing wage costs is an easy sell to this current bunch of Tory muppets to get more competitive (even though it will largely do nothing but piss people off).

I agree with the ref result, by not triggering article 50 on June 24 Cameron effectively kicked Brexit into the preservation box.
 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...