Jump to content
Phantis Forums

Infelices infantilismos


Go:bekli

Recommended Posts

you come across as if you and Vasko Naumovski still wish that the Ottomans controlled our lands today?

 

Or that they have every right to wish this?

 

 

I have no idea as to how I come across, but I believe I can explain Vasko?s point of view.  Namely:

 

1)    Our Alexandroplectic neighbors did not like the Ottomans. See the Ilinden revolt/uprising.

2)    Since there is no rational defense for the Alexandrian psychosis of his nation, Vasko prefers to attack.  If we lie about our own history through commission or omission, we are no different from his Alexandromaniacs.

3)    In my opinion, a nation that censors its history lies to itself.

 

Let me also add the obvious.  While I am responsible for what I write, I am not necessarily responsible for the interpretation of what I wrote by others. 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

you come across as if you and Vasko Naumovski still wish that the Ottomans controlled our lands today?

 

 

Or that they have every right to wish this?

 

 

 

I have no idea as to how I come across, but I believe I can explain Vasko?s point of view.  Namely:88

1)    Our Alexandroplectic neighbors did not like the Ottomans. See the Ilinden revolt/uprising.

2)    Since there is no rational defense for the Alexandrian psychosis of his nation, Vasko prefers to attack.  If we lie about our own history through commission or omission, we are no different from his Alexandromaniacs.

3)    In my opinion, a nation that censors its history lies to itself.

 

Let me also add the obvious.  While I am responsible for what I write, I am not necessarily responsible for the interpretation of what I wrote by others. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) do you dispute the Chios massacre occurred?

 

2) 1789 post is the version that we have been taught......is it far from the truth in your opinion?

 

3) if the massacre did happen but was not of the magnitude we may believe it does not extend to Vasko and his clowns being granted liberty to create what they want...

 

I have noticed how in a 2-3 year period the great wikipedia has changed it's description of what a Bosnian is? and was?

 

got to love their flag??? I bet all those Turko worshiping  Slavs loved to wave around that UN created cloth 500 years ago...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has Phantis declared war against the English language? 

 

a)    In another topic I wrote.

 

Apparently, if elections were were held today, ND would receive more votes than SYRIZA?..

 

and the response was

 

            ?? you came to the firm conclusion they would lose by a poll .......

 

b )    In this thread I wrote

A massacre took place; but the rest does not make much sense?

and I am asked ?do you dispute the Chios massacre occurred??.  And after that:

 

           2) 1789 post is the version that we have been taught......is it far from the truth in your opinion?

 

In a court the witnesses are asked to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

Obviously, a witness can effectively lie by not telling the whole truth.  The same standard applies when history is discussed. 

 

I do not know what the reference to 1789 is. I assume it was a typo.  Did you mean 1822?

 

3) if the massacre did happen but was not of the magnitude we may believe it does not extend to Vasko and his clowns being granted liberty to create what they want...

 

None of the above.  But whoever does not live up to the ?whole truth? standard lowers himself (and by extension his nation) to Vasko?s level.

 

The exact magnitude is not known but, as far as I know, the numbers at Phantis were more or less correct.

 

??) I have noticed how in a 2-3 year period the great wikipedia has changed it?s description of what a Bosnian is? and was?

 

got to love their flag??? I bet all those Turko worshiping  Slavs loved to wave around that UN created cloth 500 years ago...

 

I do not know what the Bosnians have to do in this thread.  Our neighbors did not use to like the Turks.  They may have learned though that the enemy of your enemy is, temporally, your friend.  

Edited by Go:bekli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1789's post was used out of context.  There is nothing wrong with searching for clarification (which is essentially what he was asking for), especially where we know there are uncertainties concerning the specifics of this event.  The search for truth is the noblest of goals.  Problem arise when others misinterpret the search for accuracy as an attack on their belief system.  There really is nothing to fear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1789 is a poster not a year....

 

 

The Bosnia reference was.....perhaps a bit vague...but  the point is to me you are targeting Greek history for 100% accuracy...  but would you hold others to the same level.....hence my ANZAC comments months ago...

 

Is all American or Italian versions of history more '100%" than Chios?

 

I have always questioned a lot about the 400 years of 'slavery'....  but questioning exact details of a massacre like Chios is basically disrespectful to those who died....

 

we don't question the 100% accuracy of Nazi atrocities.......there is an element that Greeks are fair game at times..

 

Does Vasko acknowledge that he and Goce Delcev are not on the same page...

 

 

Interesting version of the witnesses in Court......I have not told my 7 yo son that Santa is not real yet..or how much money I earn (when he asked me)....... Am I at the same level as OJ Simpson?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

questioning exact details of a massacre like Chios is basically disrespectful to those who died....

 

 

Really?  I suggest that the information is not sufficient and all of a sudden what I wrote is an insult to the dead and not a criticism of the text at hand?  Why is it not an insult to them to not present a complete picture?  And how can one know that what was excluded were details unless the whole story is known?

 

My idea is that using the dead in order to defend bad writing is disrespectful to the dead and the alive as well.

 

Interesting version of the witnesses in Court......I have not told my 7 yo son that Santa is not real yet..or how much money I earn (when he asked me)....... Am I at the same level as OJ Simpson?

 

 

You are really dumping on Phantis.  I presume that your son is not old and mature enough to understand some things; on top of that, he is at an age that he wants to belong, not to be right and apart from his peers.  He should also not be privy to information he cannot handle properly (e.g., he does not need to be told that his beloved uncle ignores the extramarital activities of his wife).

 

Similarly, when an uncle in advanced dementia asked me if in Paradise he would be living with his wife, I asserted that he would, the Bible says so!  Why should upset the man with irrelevant truths?

 

Finally, there was in Greece a radio program under the name ?Aunt Lena speaks to young children ?.  For reasons obvious, it was not a paragon of historical, social, or scientific rigor.

 

 

If I understand correctly your simile, the Phantis pages target individuals of limited maturity and the lack of rigor (if any) mirrors the opinion that Phantis has of its readership.  I.e., our immature brains should not be exposed to truths they cannot understand.

 

  That would be a real paradox.  A site whose pages on history aim to keep its readers happy, not informed.

 

 

Vasko does not care about the truth.  He is happy though to see his critics commit (for no rational reason whatsoever) the very sins he does.  Misery likes company!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

again?? we would not dare question a lot of massacres based on 'detail'...especially in certain host nations where some of us may live...

 

@Ge bekli

 

I totally understand that from a historical context the exact facts are very important and interesting....

especially to a person like yourself...

 

however the massacre and others as such did happen the finer details are yes of historical interest...but in no way diminish the disaster or tragedy or the symbolism....nor does it affect Vasko's view of Delcev..

 

 

To you and I the 1974  invasion of Cyprus is of interest from a political and historical point and the details of what went wrong are of historical importance..

 

to my sons maternal grand parents all that matters is the Turks have their house...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the point is to me you are targeting Greek history for 100% accuracy...  but would you hold others to the same level.....hence my ANZAC comments months ago...

 

Is all American or Italian versions of history more '100%" than Chios?

 

 

 

1)    I am not targeting Greek history; I am targeting Phantis for not having done a good enough job

2)    As far as I can tell you are victim of the false and AngloSaxon version of parity.  So let me list a few instances in which (in my opinion) parity does not apply:

 

Unfortunate                                         Tragic and unacceptable

My neighbor is a cuckold                                 I am a cuckold

My neighbor?s kid is dumb                              My kid is dumb

My neighbor loses his job                                 I lose my job

My neighbor has cancer                                   I have cancer

My neighbor?s doctor is a quack                      My doctor is a quack

 

and so on and so forth. 

 

As a result, I care minimally about Italians lying to Italians, Patagonians lying to Patagonians and Martians lying to Martians.  I do care though about a presentation of the Greek history that by omission or commission lies to Greeks.  Those who do not learn from their past are likely to make the same errors in the future.  In particular, it would have been useful to know what preceded the massacre at Chios and what, if anything, could be done to avert it or to limit the losses.  And this brings us to  the true and tragic:

 

 to my sons maternal grand parents all that matters is the Turks have their house...

 

 

If this is the only thing they have learned and if this is what they will pass to their grandchildren and to the future generations, the future generations are likely to make the same mistakes and lose their own house as well.   

Edited by Go:bekli
  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have first to demonstrate that it's better to know history and the truth, and thus be open minded.

 

Those who have such knowledge realize that much of history is a struggle among civilizations & cultures who used any means, including brutality and propaganda, to achieve their goals.

 

But, having such a grasp of true history usually leads individuals to worrying about  pressing matters in the here-and-now (quality of life issues), instead of gearing up for a fight over claims about Alexander's legacy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this is the only thing they have learned and if this is what they will pass to their grandchildren and to the future generations, the future generations are likely to make the same mistakes and lose their own house as well.

 

 

It is all well and good to be deep and philosophical....great for a University paper.... but most victims in real life find it hard to view life and the world this way.....especially when a lot of decisions are out of your control...

 

I almost got run over by a car last night.....I did everything legally correct when crossing the road....the impact of a collision may have been catastrophic......serious injury or worse......

try explaining the meaning of all this to my 80yo mother or 7yo son???

 

sometimes the victims loss is too great too contemplate the rest...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

At http://www.phantis.com/news/second-formation-turkish-fighter-jets-enter-athens-fir#at_pco=smlrebv-1.0&at_si=5728e3544b924fdb&at_ab=per-2&at_pos=0&at_tot=auto

 

we read that on April 11

 

 

 

A second group of Turkish F-4 Phantom II fighter jets and a KC-135 aerial refueling aircraft entered Athens' FIR at 14.59 (local) without submitting flight plans on Monday, Greece's National Defense General Staff said on Monday.

 

 

The Wikipedia informs us that:

 

Every portion of the atmosphere belongs to a specific FIR. Smaller countries' airspace is encompassed by a single FIR; larger countries' airspace is subdivided into a number of regional FIRs.

Some FIRs encompass the territorial airspace of several countries. Oceanic airspace is divided into Oceanic Information Regions and delegated to a controlling authority bordering that region. The division among authorities is done by international agreement through the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

 

The ICAO is the outcome of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, at Chicago.  The following articles appear to be relevant:

 

Article - 1 Sovereignty: The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory.

Article - 2 For the purposes of this Convention the territory of a State shall be deemed to be the land areas and territorial waters adjacent thereto under the sovereignty, suzerainty, protection or mandate of such State

Article 3 (Civil and state aircraft):

( a ) This Convention shall be applicable only to civil aircraft, and shall not be applicable to state aircraft.

( b ) Aircraft used in military, customs and police services shall be deemed to be state aircraft.

( c )  No state aircraft of a contracting State shall fly over the territory of another State or land thereon without authorization by special agreement or otherwise, and in accordance with the terns thereof.

 

 

As a result of which I wonder if my knowledge of English and/or my logic and my ability to understand simple notions are inadequate.  I hope that some good Christian who understands the English language and elementary logic will help me to understand why these entries to the FIR of Athens were newsworthy.

Edited by Go:bekli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Phantis offered us the following ANA/MPA (I assume that ANA/MPA stands for Athens News Agency/Macedonian Press Agency) article

(http://www.phantis.com/news/debris-egypt-air-flight-located-southeast-crete-say-ministry-sources)  

 which informs us that

 

 

Two orange objects were located 200-230 miles southeast of Crete inside Egyptian airspace by an Egyptian aircraft participating in the search and rescue operation for the EgyptAir flight that disappeared over the Mediterranean on Thursday morning

 

...........

 

The aircraft was flying at 37,000 feet and had just entered Egypt's Flight Information Region from the Athens FIR when it disappeared from the radar. It then carried out a 90 degree turn to the left, under unexplained conditions, followed by a 360 degree right-hand turn that brought it spiralling downward to first 15,000 feet and then at 10,000 feet, before it vanished from the radar screens entirely.

 

I wonder if someone can comment on any of the following:

 

1)      Is it true that the distance from Crete to Alexandria is ~400 miles?

2)      Is it true that the UN Convention defines the Territorial waters as ?Out to 12 nautical miles (22 kilometres; 14 miles) from the baseline? (baseline being the low water mark)?

3)      Is it true that the Territorial Airspace is defined as ?the portion of the atmosphere controlled by a country above its territory, including its territorial waters??

4)      If so, how can an object that lies (actually flows in the sea) 170+ miles from the coast of Egypt be within the Egyptian airspace?

5)      Looking at the second paragraph, can we assume that ANA/MPA considers that the terms FIR and Territorial airspace are  interchangeable?

6)      What is a 360 right ?hand turn?  Should we assume that they are describing a rightward and downward spiral?

7)      Next time that I read an ANA/MPA article concerning violations over the Aegean, what must I conclude?

Edited by Go:bekli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phantis informs us that

 

On May 221963, after delivering the keynote speech at a pacifist meeting in Thessaloniki, he was run down by a delivery truck driven by two right-wing extremists (Emmanouil Emmanouilidis and Spyros Kotzamanis). He suffered brain injuries and died in the hospital five days later, on May 27

 

The Wikipedia in English claims that:

 

On May 22, 1963, shortly after he had delivered the keynote speech at an anti-war meeting in Thessaloniki, two far-right extremists, Emannouel Emannouilides and Spyro Gotzamanis, driving a three-wheeled vehicle, struck Lambrakis with a club over the head in plain view of a large number of people and (allegedly) some police officers. He suffered brain injuries and died in the hospital five days later, on May 27. The two men were arrested because of the reaction of a passenger who jumped on their vehicle and fought with them (Manolis Hatziapostolou, nicknamed Tiger).

 

According to wikipedia in Greek:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

What is the meaning of cutting their heads off ?  If it is to show disrespect then the goal has been achieved.  If they wanted to show the body for proof, then show the body.  There is no need to desecrate it.  I guess it's all about dehumanising your enemy, which then validates any actions against them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the meaning of cutting their heads off ?

 

 

 I do not really know.  The following may be relevant:

 

1)    It is easier to kill the enemy whom we dehumanize.  The desecration follows.

 

2)    The desecration of the dead has a long history and continues to our days.  E.g., Homer's Achilles, the treatment of the killed US soldiers' in Mogadishu (1993, picture below) or a 2012 video or US marines urinating on dead Taliban fighters.

 

mogadishu.jpg?w=700

 

Things were a bit more complicated in 1940-1949 Greece.  Namely:

 

1)    

Edited by Go:bekli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...