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Infelices infantilismos


Go:bekli

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You are saying that Greece missing out on the E....gave us an 'eastern' view of the world.....

and in some ways this has caused many of our ills....

 

interestingly though that many greeks today see the 'west' as being our down fall.....and see the solution to our political/economic/social problems would be by cutting ties with the 'west'...

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As far as I can tell, the Enlightment was the side-effect of Protestantism.   Moreover, the Enlightment  cannot  be imported, it requires a process through which the warring parties come to understand that victory is impossible and a formula of co-existence must be found.

 

Beyond that, there the notion of ?pesanteur sociale?.  Crudely speaking, even if driving on the left side may be the better option, one is not advised to drive on the left if every other driver drives on the right.  Or, if in Greece you do not accept/demand rousfetia (a word/practice of AraboOttoman pedigree that modern Greek adopted), you have taken, ipso facto, vows of poverty and abstinence.

 

This thread, fun as it can be, demonstrates perfectly the universal technique of not solving a small problem by transforming it in a bigger and unsolvable one.  E.g., is there credible support for the Zaloggo-story ?

 

If there is, why is it not cited?  If not, why is this mythological event presented as an historical one?  When these simple questions are not answered, I remain unenlightened!

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  • 2 weeks later...

It is well known that "bad money drives out good" and apparently this law was known to Aristophanes, to the Mamluk Al Maqrizi, ..., and finally to Gresham; hence the Gresham's law concerning good and bad money.

 

I do not plan to become known through a similar law (e.g., Go:bekli kanunu) but I will assert that bad historiography drives out good.   As an example, one may compare what is believed to be known about Zalogo and what is, as a rule, not known about the Husainids and Mustapha Khaznadar.

Edited by Go:bekli
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I think the Enlightenment--also known as the Age of Reason-- was humankind's best achievement over all. Especially because it was so radical and its transformative effects, beginning in the latter part of the 18th century. Of course, in order for it (E) to happen, other evens and processes in history had to happen, like the changing economic and political structures in the 14-16 centuries that brought the Renaissance (rebirth).

 

For thousands of years, humans lived in willful ignorance, in fear and prejudice. The E. gave an opportunity to "mankind to come out of its self-imposed immaturity" as philosopher I. Kant said.

 

Are people Enlightened today?

 

Sadly, I see the same debate that followed the destruction of Lisbon in 1755 by the earthquake and tsunami. .. (about the causes of events) being repeated. I would have hoped for a more ..enlightened dialogue today.

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    Unfortunately, Kant the cantankerous can?t explain anything.  Back in 1976, Alain Peyrefitte, published a book with the title ?Le mal Fran?ais?.  It was an interesting book that attempted to explain the evolution of France and of its culture.   Alain, mon pote, claimed that the French minority (Jews and protestants) had miraculously earned the majority of the French Nobel prizes and dominated the important sectors of the French economy.  I do not remember the numbers he put forth but if one were to use google, one would find that the Jews (i.e., at least one parent being Jewish) have won 22% of the Nobel prizes and 36% or the  Nobel  prizes  were earned by Americans.   One may explain this as one can or can?t.

 

    Now, let us look at the remnants of the Ottoman Empire and Greece in particular.  A few years back a fellow whose last name is Beziryiannis wanted to find the meaning/origin of his last name.  I was forced to tell him that in the language of our former masters bezirgan= (1) greedy merchant and (2) Jewish shopkeeper or peddler.  Neither they nor we have the faintest idea of what Enlightment is all about.  As a result of this, we live in a make believe world in which we conflate patriotism and historical forgery.   In order to not linger exclusively on mythical dances, I will mention this time the patriotic remake of Socrates? trial.  

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  If you do not believe, the Religion is based on myths;  if you do, it is based on Revelation.  And given the fact that the idea of God is more or less incompatible with the human logic, arguing about God and Religion will not get you far.

 

  There is nothing wrong with patriotism.  On the other hand, there is the demek patriotism that systematically lies.  If you lie about your own history, you implicitly accept that, bar the lies, your nation is not lovable.  There is a form of "patriotism" that reminds me of Oscar Wilde:

 

Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!

 

These lines pretty much explain, methinks, the brand of patriotism that creates and maintains the myths (see Zalogo) that soothe the chauvinist/jingoist soul.

Edited by Go:bekli
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Well, it's easier (natural?) to believe in the divine, and that the absolute can be captured/revealed not via logic. So, once you capture the absolute what's the point of having a discussion? If you don't get it, it's your problem. And, of course, we must deal with you...


The E gave us the Age of Reason but also laid the foundations of the modern state, which came with patriotism and nationalism.

 

For me, patriotism means having a stake (not a steak... I wish as I'm hungry now) in a society where I live. That's why I support the conditions that make me happy. * 

I don't need to have myths or false ideas nor blind nationalism in order to be patriotic. I think the ones who go overboard (ultra-nationalists/jingoists)  are dangerous.

 

* It's interesting that people who complain about everything are themselves disrespectful of common decency. For example, everyone in Athens hates the noise, the pollution (garbage), lawlessness, illegal parking, etc, etc. But, who's responsible for such ills?

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The E gave us the Age of Reason ?..

 

Really?   It gave us Adolfo, Marx, Stalin, Lysenko, Mao and Pol Pot.  Their reasoning was that a few millions of premature deaths were a small price to pay in order to create a Paradise on earth. 

 

 

? patriotism means having a stake ?.. in a society where I live. That's why I support the conditions that make me happy. 

 

- With this definition you declared war on the English language; not a mortal sin if you live in NY.

- Thank God, you are not a US diplomat living abroad

-  The conditions that make your fellow Americans happy is to evade taxes and to have everyone else pay them.  Obviously, this definition of patriotism leads to pernicious practices.

 

people who complain about everything are themselves disrespectful of common decency

This appears to be an accurate description of the New-Yorkers

 

For example, everyone in Athens ??..

Well, there is the social gravity.  E.g., if everyone around me is shouting, the only way I can be heard by my wife is to shout as well.

 

As far as extremism is concerned, there is the well-known  ?Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; and. moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue?

 

 

Finally, my question still begs an answer.  Which definition of patriotism demands that historical non-events (such as the famous dance) be presented as historical events?  

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  As far as I know Religions do not have anything to do with facts.  As an example, Mohamed claimed that he was visited, in his dreams, by Gibril (Gabriel in English) who is supposed to be (as all the readers of the all testament know) the messenger of God.  You either believe the prophet or you do not.  Proof is impossible.   Moses presumably conversed with God.  When Moses asked the name of God, the God replied "I am who  I am".  A wonderful answer if you consider that God (if God exists)  can be defined only through self-reference.  There is Genesis but who (other than God) could have been its witness?   Bear in mind though that the species are created in a sequence that looks as if God had read  Darwin (or the reverse).  Finally the Orthodox Christians believe that the holy Ghost emanated from the father only while the Catholic insist that it emanated from the father and the son.  

 

My Philipino relatives are maniacally religious and insist that baptism is a necessary perquisite if one wishes to enter Paradise.  They hate me when I  tell them that God hated the Philipinos and let them learn the "good news" through Magallanes with a delay of ~1500 years; they hate me a second time when I remind them that hate is a mortal sin.  But, hateful or not, they were never crazy enough to believe that there is a factual basis for their beliefs (hateful or not).

 

In the societies we live in the problem is not Religion but those who believe they know the answer even though they have not understood the question; a capital sin that we all will commit sooner or later.  Example:

 

I ask why we  must present as historical a description that, apparently, is not.  We managed to touch almost all possible subjects with a single exception:  Why we maintain a description that is, as far as we can tell, a fanciful myth.  To me this a miracle that is more admirable than all the miracles (actual or imagined) of Jesus.  Mi mujer est? mi testigo (y mi tesoro tambi?n)!

 

Note:  The Phantis software seems to hate the accent marks (see above) and their use in Castellano.

Edited by Go:bekli
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Today, this day Saturday is responsible for whatever happens henceforth.....

 

Why myths are presented as fact? Because insecure people need myths. They're afraid of reality.

 

And, speaking of myths, religions are invented to provide an explanation (as they used to explain the ..universe) and alleviate the fears of horrors, natural disasters and death.  It's so obvious--but well hidden from those who desperately want to believe--that religions captured the small-mindedness, superstitions and ignorance of the times they were invented.

 

As for the US, sadly, the top answer to the question "I would never vote for a..." is atheist. Higher than Muslim, homosexual, black, etc.

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I cannot understand this anti-religious mania.  The basic way to present an idea is the parable. 

Example:

 

-In 1954 Elias Kazan filmed the ?On the waterfront?.  Whoever saw it and thought that it was about abusive workers? representatives missed the boat.

- In 1955 Arthur Miller more or less answered Kazan with ?A View from the Bridge?.  Again, if one thought that the play was about immigrants, he missed the boat.

 

The Bible is full of parables and only the priests and the maniacally anti-priests can fail to see that it must be read as a collection of parables, rules that put a limit to the ferocity of men, and stories that demonstrate how easy it is for men to use religion to present their cruelty of as the will of God.  E.g.,

 

-          Adam and Eve have no notion of good and evil until they eat the forbidden fruit, become God-like, and are expelled from Paradise.  Is it not clear that the text describes the passage from childhood to adulthood?  Very young children are the embodiment of "I want it,  I must have it" ?.  Eventually they acquire the notion of right and wrong and become adults.

 

-          When God tells Adam "

Edited by Go:bekli
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growing up I always questioned 'facts' from the ottoman occupation....

 

'kryfo sxolio' for one....images of priests and teachers teaching greek secretly for 400 years...I often wondered it is far fetched to think the Turks couldn't detect these secret schools..

 

not many question these things..nor bother to ask how the Ottomans ran the empire...

 

I have similar thoughts when I hear the ANZACS fought for my freedom..I still ask how a bunch if New Zealand and Aussie soldiers being slaughtered on a Turkish beach gave ME my freedom??  No one seems to be able to give me an answer?

 

most religious greek people I have spoken to...take the bible events as being Factual....unlike the Filipino friends..

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As for the US, sadly, the top answer to the question "I would never vote for a..." is atheist. Higher than Muslim, homosexual, black, etc.

 

Agree fully, and I find it intriguing that this is so.  The US bucks the trend of most first world countries when it comes to religion.  Australia had the concept of religion built into its constitution from its very beginning.  Before each parliamentary session, the "Lord's Prayer" is recited.  And yet in Australia if a politicians mentions "God" in every day language, he/she will be looked at as if they are a fruit loop.  The vast majority of people really don't care if a politician believes in (a) God or not.  It is (and this is a good thing), of little relevance.  Why it's such a big deal in the US, I don't really understand.  One thing is for sure, if you want to lose an election in the US today, just say you don't believe in God.

 

 

 

I have similar thoughts when I hear the ANZACS fought for my freedom..I still ask how a bunch if New Zealand and Aussie soldiers being slaughtered on a Turkish beach gave ME my freedom??  No one seems to be able to give me an answer?

 

On the other hand, we have our own silliness here in Australia, as Red Sheriff rightfully points out.  Even trying to have a discussion on this issue, even in the name of discovering truth, is a guaranteed way to become hugely unpopular.  Some ideas just can't be touched ... at least not while certain generations of people are alive.

 

 

most religious greek people I have spoken to...take the bible events as being Factual....unlike the Filipino friends..

 

Please, say it isn't so. Then again, the book of Genesis does have some really cool stories.

Edited by Bananas
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I know nothing about Australia and you should feel free to disregard all that follows.

 

The Dardanelles campaign turned out to be a debacle for the Allies and a gift from Allah to Mustapha Kemal Pasha.  One could tell the mothers of the Australian soldiers who died there that their sons died as the result of a strategic miscalculations, possibly the outcome of lack of careful planning, insufficient intelligence, and political considerations.  The other possibility would be to claim that the blood spilled was the very foundation of some wonderful purpose.  The rest, as they say, is history.

 

Similarly, we speak about the 300 Spartans fighting a suicidal rear guard battle; few mention that this battle would enable the rest of the army to be saved.  Fewer mention the Thespians who also stayed and the Thebans who were forced to stay because Leonidas (not a dummy) considered them likely to change sides.  Almost none mentions that Leonidas had left ~1000 Phocians to guard the path that the Persians followed in order to encircle the Greeks.  The guard was guarding nothing and when it saw Ephialtes and company, it retreated to the top of a nearby hill.  Unfortunately for Leonidas, the Persians were not interested in defeating the Phocians, they wanted to encircle the Greeks at Thermopylae.

 

At the very worst, the Australians imitated our illustrious example.  From the battle of Thermopylae all the way to the invented suicidal dances of the Arvanites that we serve as history to the Europeans and the North Americans whom we lovingly call

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  • 4 weeks later...

Today I was informed that the Greek Social Security (IKA) was created on March 4.  The article in the Phantis Wiki informs us that 

 

 

 

IKA was established in 1934 though its operations actually began in 1937. Its first Governor was Panagiotis Kanellopoulos. IKA's functions were to insure workers providing medical coverage and old-age pensions.

 

  Interestingly enough, the text forgot to inform us is that at the time Greece was governed by Ioannis Metaxas who had decided that he could and should govern without being elected.   As a result, I remembered that in an American court the witnesses are expected to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

  I assume then  that the Greek version of historiography serves a higher purpose and is unrestrained by silly rules.  It is free to serve to its readers liberating untruths (Zaloggo), liberating half truths (IKA), and to add to the mix whatever disorientating statement it likes (a "dolma yalanci tabagi") concerning the neighboring countries.

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Today I read the following at the bottom of a thread:

 

3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 1 anonymous users

 
and now I am confused.  Has Phantis declared war on Arithmetic or on the English language as well?
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Wonderful!  While I doubt that your memories will become as famous as the text of Proust concerning the medeleines  

 

 

 

Et tout d'un coup le souvenir m'est apparu. Ce go?t, c'?tait celui du petit morceau de madeleine que le dimanche matin ? Combray (parce que ce jour-l? je ne sortais pas avant l'heure de la messe), quand j'allais lui dire bonjour dans sa chambre, ma tante L?onie m'offrait apr?s l'avoir tremp? dans son infusion de th? ou de tilleul. La vue de la petite madeleine ne m'avait rien rappel? avant que je n'y eusse go?t? ;

 

it was moving and another instance of the fact that smell affects the memory.

 

Here is my own experience:

 

On a wintry but sunny day, I had an ouzo.  Suddenly, I felt as if it were Spring or Summer.  For some time I was perplexed.  The feeling appeared to be incomprehensible; until I remembered that, ever since I left Greece, I rarely drank ouzo with one exception:

 

During my vacations, with my friends, in the old country. 

 

Note: as usual, the site maps the characters it dislikes (e.g., an e accent aigu) into question signs(?).  Use your imagination and map the ?-signs into the French alphabet. 

Edited by Go:bekli
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  • 3 weeks later...

Today I read at Phantis:

 

March 31

  • 1822: The massacre of Chios took place during the Greek War of Independence. An estimated 100,000 persons were killed or sold into slavery.

 

 

 

A massacre took place; but the rest does not make much sense:

 

1) Who and how estimated the 100,000?

2) Did "the massacre"  last one day?  Did it start on March 31? Did it end on March 31?

3) Was there a single massacre (as the "The massacre..." implies) in Chios that year?

 

The only sure thing is that Vasko Naumovski must like the way Phantis presents the Greek history.  He calls me at least once a week, entertained by the historiography at Phantis and just before hanging up he throws at me the following mantra:

 

You, Zitouniates/Arahovites/ Vostitsanoi and similar, insist on practicing Slavic-style historiography.  Compared to you, our historians, undoubtedly daft, appear to be as good as Thucydides; and, by the way, when will Phantis commemorate the Melian massacre?

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