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17 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree with Tsipras signing/accepting the new deal?

    • Yes, it was the best option available
      7
    • No, he campaigned against such deal and his referendum was a rejection of such
      3
    • Undecided. Confused. Disgusted.
      3
    • Who the hell knows? Everything in Greece is up to loose interpretation
      4


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As far as the next day is concerned, this has the potential to change Greece on a scale not seen since the collapse of the Junta. If Tsipras can implement these changes - this will effect the Greek political landscape. There are many leftists - who vote PASOK, SYRIZA, KKE on reflex who will now be dragged into the 21st century. Hopefully they will realise - they can still be leftists - but on a more European scale - meaning - they can fight for public services and workers rights - however they have to do this within a capitalist system where Greece's closed professions are reduced from 344, to 140 to 0.

 

They also have to understand money has to be generated or else they wont be able to import nice things. If they have any brains at all they will try - as leftists - to strive to make Greece a country that manufactures many of the things it needs, rather than importing almost everything bar tomatoes and olive oil.

 

We all know Greece has potential - that is why the state of modern Greece hurts so many of us. What needs to change is the type of left wingers we have. Greece will never fully free itself from corruption - even the UK and Germany hasn't/  However Greece needs to free itself of self loathing. This needs to start in the schools. No more teachers telling children that Greece is where it is because of conspiracies and bullies. Children need to be taught - the failures of Greece are synonymous with the failure of Greeks. 

 

I hope a lot of Greek voters wake up today and realise the damage Papandreou and the subsequent delinquents have done to Greece.

 

Well.  Don't really know what to say.  You come out punching once again.  The Junta!  The Junta!

 

You know what.  I'll allow the "teachers" to "teach" the kids on one condition.  You design the syllabus.  I would love to see its contents.

 

And then we wonder why Greece is broken.

 

And yes, so so so so many people will wake up today and think "you know what, I never realised before ... but ... that Papandreou guy, he ruined the country".  It will be a religious moment also.  Getting tingly just thinking about it.

 

*Sigh*

 

In breaking news, Greek PM shows courage ... and then realises it was only a dream.

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Unfortunately some people just can't figure out that bribery, tax corruption, pensions at 50, claiming fake subsidies, took us down.  Not the tax rate Starbucks pays.

Isn't it amazing, profit making assets that make money for the state are given to privateers and to make up for it we need to tax the people more and rot their pensions, when you talk of bribery one wonders whether its open for everyone to own these assets or just a chosen few.

you focus on the small fry and wonder why nothing changes.

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Darn, I have to admit, the money is good, and since Greece has no money right now, I sold my soul to the dark forces that want to destroy Greece. :lol:   -_-

 

I wonder how much longer will it take for my patrons to destroy Greece? They're at it since 1821....  My advice to them is, don't destroy it, own it. And, if history is a guide, Greeks will help you do it, gaddamit.

I wish that was the case, the scary thing is you actually believe it. 

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The deal that Tsipras "negotiated" will result in a 4th bailout not 100%, not 1,000 % but 1,000,000%. Maybe the IMF may come to the rescue (the irony) and get a big debt restructure. They are talking about a big up front cut or to postpone it for 30 years. 30 years!! That's how bad the deal that Tsipras "agreed" to is.

And does Germany know this ? Of course they do. But Merkel won't be there to clean up the mess. She'll have retired to a Greek island bought a nice discount.

But what do I know. 75% of Greeks still want the Euro! After what's happened in the last 5 years, they would still rather stick with the Euro. How much must they distrust their own politicians, and how little faith do they have in them, that they would prefer this to going back to their old currency.

In the meantime, their great grandchildren will be paying back the debt. Yep, great decision everyone. Stick with the Euro. Protect your pensions and let the kids pay for it once you're gone.

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For better or worse, Greece will stay in Europe, with a common currency in the forseeable future. There are many scenaria as to what should happen next, and some depend on the general economic outlook of the EuroZone, including the other countries in trouble.

 

If Tsipras delivers what the Euros want, and if he survives his party defections, and if he can mend bridges with certain leaders/countries, he can turn out to be very successful.*****  Now there are lots of "ifs" here. One, the Euro leaders can easily destroy him by not being flexible with the terms.

 

But,  it's more than obvious to all now that Greece's debt is way too big and therefore unpayble. Merkel says no reduction of the amount (no haircut) just longer terms and lower rates.

 

IF trust between EZ and Greece is repaired, and if there's an Athens gov that can implement the promised, and most needed reforms, Europe will have to trim the debt (haircut), forgive some obligations, and make no-insterest loans. It's ONLY the EZ countries that are still willing to lend to Greece now. [other countries are NOT willing to do so; forget Russia, China, US, whomever] 

 

What many people fail to recognize is that when you negotiate with other parties they don't have to see it your way. Many of us disagree here about everything. But, when you need money you can't go to the bank and tell them they're a bunch of nazis (they may be), that their terms are outrageous, shame on them, etc. Once you decide you want to be in the bank's club and want its money, you have to be diplomatic and play game with the parameters and the people involved. This is politics, diplomacy. The art of the possible!

 

Before you say (as many of you have said it repeatedly) exit the EZ, please remember that many leaders of parties that represent close to 85% of the voters since 2008 have opted to stay in the EZ. Why? Are they all bought out? Are the apologists for some dark masters? [as someone accused me of being one]  In my opinion it's because they all agreed it may be really bad but the alternative is worse!

....

 

*****How I measure success?

  1. implement needed reforms; the country will benefit from them. (we all agree they're needed but no previous govs dared to do so)
  2. if he has the ability to be diplomatic, he can show the Euros that Greece is turning a page; he took a tremendous political risk but delivered as no PM had done before!
  3. Europe will have to decide that it's a big family and once it has responsible governments, then the remaining Greek debt can be written off on the premise that the Greek state isn't producing deficits and in on same page with advanced western countries. ie. A US state cannot declare bankruptcy. The Feds step in.
  4. These benefits can (and will have to) be felt by the Greek society before this gov's term in over. So, Tsipras (maybe not with Syriza as it is now) can be reelected and enjoy a long successful career with a name like Venizelos or the old Karamanlis, or Trikoupis, and a few others.
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jvc, I hope you're right about the reforms actually being implemented.  I think it's going to be more a case of the EU picking the low hanging fruit.  Anything that requires actual system wide implementation with serious man-power will either be put in the too hard basket or they'll make a "token" effort and say "see, we tried but the greek people blah blah".

 

All I can say is that reading about the vote this morning, I'm disgusted.  But apparently the majority think that handing over your country and your people over to Germany is preferable.  Go figure.

 

In breaking news ... Germany offers solution for greek debt.  Every greek citizen can donate a kidney or other non-essential organs.

 

Pussies, the lot of them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Tsipras made a deal to F*** them in the end.

 

We will never pay that amount of money we ow them back. Even if we wanted to, we couldnt.
Samaras, the bitch of Merkel and Schauble, wasnt able to sell more then 4 dis of the 50 dis that they want us to sell. Now they made that deal again, are they stupid or what? Yes Germans are stupid.

 

The banks in Greece are open but not for export business. This is a big problem. Once everything is like normal again Tsipras is the winner. We get a lot of money. We wont pay s%$#! back. Economy has to start again like before.

 

When we have the money we start flirting with Russia again. The Americans pressured Germany to make a deal. So those trips to Russia from Tsipras that were bashed by members here were very smart and a part of the game.

 

Tsipras also proved he isnt that left as people say he was. I hope this was a lesson for the anti-communist members here. Greece is not Amerika.

 

Mpravo Alexi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! proxora!!!!

 

WAIT A MINUTE? JVC IS CURSING AT HIS LOVERS ND AND PASOK??????????????????? WHAT IS THIS? THE BIGGEST TSIPRAS HATER?????????? WHAT HAPPENED?

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Tsipras was never a communist, he was portrayed like that by propaganda channels and newspapers in Greece. Thats why I support him. I also was never a communist, you dont have to be anti-europe to be a communist... see Kammenos...

I also was never a Russia lover, it was just a smart hand in the game to play. It was so smart that America was 24\7 on the phone with Germany to order them to make a deal.

You just cant see the big picture, you cant see how the game is played my American friend. I always saw this and wasnt blinded by propaganda made on tsipras.. left.. communist blablabla.

 

Wth new elections Tsipras get 50% of the votes after the summer. And not because he's a communist, but because he helps Greece and not his own pockets like you 'right' German lovers like ND and PASOK.

 

And the game isnt over.... what did Europe think they can F*** Greece? We were making wars in Asia 3000 years ago when these idiots didnt even excist.. haha they wanna play us? hahahahaha.

Edited by Doxa
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Im happy you are still very short sighted and only looking about left and right. Typical American mind.

 

The best thing is not the west, it's doing business with everybody. America, Germany, Russia, China and so on. We shouldnt be hold back by stupid European Rules that only benefit the rich countries. Ive always said this and I never looked to left or right, just like Tsipras. He showed that when he started working with Kammenos the day after the elections. But you are blind sided by the media.

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Tsipras has a long history (since his student years) of Marxist ideology. Of course he could be pretending all along, but it probably means something to be lecturing on, arguing for, advocating Marist ideology. Now, what does this mean? Well, Marxism is like xtianity. [by the way, the notion of communism was articulated by Plato, and the early xtians were communists]. It can mean many different things. Some Marxists are on the left of social democrats. They operate withing a liberal democracy whose economic system is evolved capitalism. They don't advocate a violent transition to a communist state, like Leninists would.

 

There are no advanced communist countries today to align a smaller country like Greece with. Realistically, Tsipras realized exiting the eurozone would mean even worse conditions for Greece than the current draconian measures are creating. [China is not a communist country in practice; plus you wouldn't want to practice what China has in the last 20 years]

 

Please stop with Greek history as an argument why Greece is great today and why the country is important today.

 

If you rely on the distant past too much it means that you have nothing left to talk & do today.

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  • 3 weeks later...

it seems that new elections are coming very soon. It was obvious that Tsipras couldn't govern when his coalition is divided and legislation was approved by a majority not by his own party/coalition but by/with others.

 

Tsipras was not ready for PM, nor did he calculate correctly. He got a worse deal than if the previous gov were in place. He forced the country into elections while he didn't have to.... because these tough measures would have been taken by Samaras, so Tsipras could have come in with the claim, "we'll try to do the best we can but the previous gov has tied our hands"..... so, he could have proceeded with getting rid of the old guard, the corruption, etc.  Of course, this assumes that Syriza is for that....

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I have to agree with you athinaios.  To be fair, I don't think Tsipras or anyone else predicted how nasty the EU/ECB reaction would be.  When the ECB cut off funding for Greek banks, well, that is a day to remember.  The nastiness with which the new terms were forced on Greece has also been a revelation.

 

If anything positive has come out of this, it's the fact that the EU doesn't look like the good guy anymore.  They got nasty, and there was no way they could make themselves look like the good guys, no matter how hard they tried.  The Euro is still around for the moment, but what the EU/ECB did to Greece only helped create more opposition against the Euro "project".  Everybody now knows who really runs the show.  Everybody now knows the EU isn't for the benefit of all.  Everybody now knows that it is not a democratic institution.  Opposition against the Euro/EU/ECB is growing albeit slowly.  I don't see this trend reversing.

 

And all of the above has in it's own way, been constructive.  Would a Samaras government have done the same ?

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It seems that Tsipras miscalculated with Varoufakis, who was an "expert" of game/risk theory and wanted to push the Grexit card much more seriously than Tsipras wanted. Tsipras recently said he should have had Euclid as finance minister from the beginning. 

 

True Tsipras had a bad hand, and most poker players lose such. But, he was unprepared, he gambled badly and he demanded to be at the poker table by forcing the country into elections. "Would Samaras have done better?"  Probably, not because he somehow is more skillful, but because of the terms of the deal were slightly better, plus--let's not forget this---precious time wouldn't have been wasted. Did that matter? Well, just the damage from capital controls, losing economic productivity and income, and billions of euros left the country, was a price Greece couldn't afford to pay, but it did because of Tsipras's tactics.

 

However, In order to better understand a situation, we have to examine it from different perspectives, not only what Greece wants/needs/deserves/thinks.

How did the euros see this conflict?  I've written lots here on this, so I won't repeat myself. But, I think Greece would have reacted like the euros (even worse) if this issue were about Fyrom, Albania, or Turkey. ;)  (Am I wrong?)

 

Whatever view you have of the EU many Europeans see Greece as the petulent, irresponsible, lazy member who has lied and cheated into the club. Justified view?...What do you think?  ...Oh, I know, the poor Greeks who everybody is jealous of and wants to destroy for centuries..... (whatever).

 

You're probably right that Tsipras didn't expect this harsh treatment.... which makes him more amateurish in my view. Look what happens in this forum as an example. The moment personal insults are thrown, no rational conversation can take place. So, if you call your negotiating partners (at the table you chose to go to) "thieves", "gang members" "nazzis", etc, etc... What do you think they'll do when you have a weak hand and in essense you're begging for a good deal??!!! 

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True but we've learned from January and June that the polls are way way off and never accurate so I dont believe he's only leading by 1 or 2 %. They also said that the last 2 times and he won with way bigger differences.

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True but we've learned from January and June that the polls are way way off and never accurate so I dont believe he's only leading by 1 or 2 %. They also said that the last 2 times and he won with way bigger differences.

Agreed.  I'm thinking he will win by 6-7%.  It would have been more if his party didn't implode.

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It's sad, in my opinion, that there aren't good alternatives right now. Tsipras lied, proved to be incompetent and unprepared. The old guard (ND, PASOK, traditional left) are all worn out and with no credibility. The other splinter parties are opportunistic with no real chance to push for anything. This clown Kamenos of the "Anexartitoi Ellines" was against the "mnemonio" but once he was asked to be part of Tsipras' gov he changed his tune.

 

There are no good choices for Greece right now, because it dug a big hole for itself. Everyone is responsible, govs and people alike. It has a political culture of the early last century.

 

I wouldn't know whom to vote for right now.

 

What do you want to happen? I mean given the realities of the situation.... What can the next government do?

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Agreed.  I'm thinking he will win by 6-7%.  It would have been more if his party didn't implode.

 

This is because the people who control the media make propaganda for the thiefs from Nea Demokratia because they got favors from them all these years.

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I'm not sure how accurate polling is in Greece, but several are showing the ND-Syriza gap gone, and in a couple, ND is ahead by a whisker. This may reveal a trend, which in politics is very important. If the debates don't change this momentum, then you'll be surprised by the outcome of this election.

 

Another thing I'm looking at is the % that answers the question, which party do you think will win (regardless of how you'll vote). It used to be Syriza by a big number, but now this is almost gone.  Again, this is an important indicator. Of course there are many "undecideds"..... But, they don't break for one party usually, so don't put them in your favorite column yet. Actually most of them follow the trend/momentum.

 

By the way, it's strange the polling is forbidden in the last days before an election. Weird "logic" if there's such....

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This is the typical offensive by the Nea Demokratia right wing media (so pretty much all the media). They want to push ND to a victory with every resource they have. We've seen it in the last two times they tried it also and it didnt work.

 

Sure that new ultra-left communist party took some votes away from Syriza, but surely Tsipras will keep his support. The best thing is just to continue to admit he made mistakes and couldnt keep his word. I'm happy he admits it and not trying to blame other people like the parties did every time in the last 30 years.

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