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Some of us older guys know that the real rivalry between Hellas and Heidelberg is more political and intense....in the early days Heidelberg...were very strongly backed by Slav speaking Florina 'greeks'....almost borderline 'Preston' fans...some had family members at Preston...

it was only after 1991 that Heidelberg forged a proper Greek identity amongst the core fan base....I have been told by former inner sanctum Heidelberg fans that a few Pontians tried to get on the board in the earlier days and were shown the door by slavophone Floriniotes.

From what I understand you're essentially correct about the dubious backgrounds of some of the original backers of Heidelberg but I'm not sure that it was as late as 1991.

I grew up in Sydney in the 80s and when Sydney Olympic were interstate and either Heidelberg or Hellas were in Sydney my father would take my brother and I to watch the other Greek teams.

One particular match Heidelberg were playing APIA Leichhardt at Lambert Park and my old man took us along and after the match we got on the field and spoke to Selemedis and Yankos. We had no idea their were "Slavophone" behind the scenes. This was probably 1984 or there abouts.

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^^^ My father took me to watch Heidelberg games as far back as the late 70s (they were then known as Fitzroy Utd), and I don't recall any slavic links, although I was just a kid at the time.

 

I'm sure there were some "Florina-type" supporters at the games, but all I recall hearing was the Greek language being spoken.

 

PAOK/Aris supporters, for example, were perhaps more likely to support Heidelberg over SMH.   

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My dad is a Heidelberg supporter, he says by about the late 70s/early 80s most of the dodgy people had already shifted over to preston, my dad is from Southern Greece as are most of his mates that go for Heidelberg, on the flip side I know heaps of hellas supporters who are from the Macedonia region, after a while the fan bases just became mixed. A lot of older Heidelberg supporters could/can speak that other language, but most likely choose not to at the soccer, if anything they try too hard to be greek these days. Apparently the skop team Heidelberg played in the FFA cup last week are from florina. The Heidelberg derbies with Preston were probably the most brutal I've seen in terms of genuine hatred and violence even if some of them are related. It's strange seeing john markovski part of the current coaching staff Heidelberg.

Fortunately being someone that just loved soccer, my dad would take me to middle park as a kid, I also attended Heidelberg games regularly as well, for me if was a no contest, hellas had the bigger crowds, the better players, and just in general seemed like a more genuine club, this was around 1990 for me just before puskas went to south, Heidelberg were on the decline by then and I found them boring to watch, hellas was a pretty easy decision.

Edited by Greekoz
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Lefkaditis, I remember them as Fitzroy United Alexander, but that was just before my time.  I don't know the political ins and outs of how the club was formed back in the day, or who ran it, but I never recall anything but the club being Greek.  As you said, I never recall anyone not speaking Greek at the ground.

 

I think when it comes down to it, a lot of Greeks from Northern Greece supported the club.  I used to go to the games at Olympic Park, and there would be 10+ car loads of us.  Good days.  Once Heidelberg went to Olympic Village, it never felt the same.  Always hated that ground.  Just terrible.

 

+1 to the rivalry between Heidelberg and Preston.  That was over the top.

 

As for Oakleigh, to compare them to SMH is just ridiculous.  Oakleigh have a decent history as far as the VPL is concerned, but that's where it ends.

 

I was at the FFA Cup game recently of South Springvale (my local team) vs Oakleigh, and it was the best crowd I had seen for years.  Probably 800 to 1000 fans if I had to guess.  The ground had fans all the way around on all sides, and was 3 deep on the main side.  I was impressed as it was a freezing night.  Oakleigh won 2-1 but here's the funny thing.  When they scored their goal, I am not kidding you ... you could hear a pin drop.  No cheering at all!  They had (if I had to guess) maybe 50 fans.  And that's being generous.  When they scored you'd think some one had died.  It was kind of eery or embarrassing depending on how you look at it.

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I don't think oakleigh have a good history period, as far as I know they have never won anything, port melbourne and bentleigh use to be the local powerhouse clubs back in the day, until Heidelberg joined them in the mid 90s, oakleigh are arrogant but they don't have the history of success to back it, they haven't earnt the right to be arrogant and therefore everyone thinks they're a bunch of flogs, springvale aris achieved more last year than oakleigh in it's entire history. The only good thing oakleigh did was choose to play home games on a Friday night, they get a lot of the casual greeks in the area to attend games, but unless hellas plays there the games have no atmosphere, it's just a social outing where people go to gossip and catch up away from the caf?s, but this is a Friday night thing, when they play the occasional Sunday home game they get no more than 50 people.

Heidelberg related story, knew a girl there who I was relatively close with about 10 years ago, parents from florina, she portrayed this full on greek image, attended all Heidelberg games and even painted her face blue and white for the Greece v australia match in 2006, anyhow we lost touch, she married a skop a few years later, I clicked on her fb page recently and much to my shock she now claims to be from "Lerin Aegean Macedonia" and her page is full of skop propaganda/anti greek...I was in such disbelief I had to go lay down hahahaha.

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Just an observation here guys....

 

This historical rivalry and micro-Greek-politics of local football highlights the reasons why Hellas wasn't even considered for the a-league.

 

While it may be interesting for the hardcore supporters of each of these clubs, anybody other than Greeks really wouldn't want a bar of it....and are probably glad to be rid of this type of political baggage which plagues local football clubs run by ethnic minorities. Another example is the "hatred" between Green Gully and George Cross, with the Maltese backing.  

 

As long as this historical racial "tension" exists between these clubs, we will never have a Greek backed club in the AL (or any other ethnic backed club for that matter).

 

This isn't being anti-Greek at all, just an observation (from someone with no links to the clubs) which I believe is the root cause of our clubs being entrenched at the lower levels.     

 

 

I think you are making a lot of this.....and being sucked in by the 'ethnic haters'....

 

the rivalry described between South and Oakleigh...and Green Gully and SGX ...Is no different to the rivalries that exist between  clubs around the world...it's how hatred and rivalries began....there is no 'ethnic tensions' or 'politics based on race' in any of these...

 

The Heidelberg slavophone comments are merely an interesting socio historical look at the birth and origins of this club...and as Greeks it's interesting to note how this club began... and by whom and how it changes...

it also raises the question (from a purely Greek political/historical) point..not football...how there is an element of slavophone Greeks who can sit comfortably on either side of the skop debate without all the heat...

 

 

I feel those AL diehards who scream at the thought of an ethnic club being within 100 km of a soccer conversation...have other motives and probably spend a lot of time reading Herald sun and listening to 3AW....

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^^^ This conversation about the roots of the various Greek clubs, throw in the skops, Maltese and Serbs/Croatians as well......is only talked about by small insignificant groups (I suppose like us) who remember this stuff. It's all slowly disappearing and when the older crowd eventually dies off nobody will even think or care about it. 

 

It's not about 'ethnic haters' in mainstream football, I think this is also disappearing because the younger generation really don't know and don't care about the history of some of these clubs. And the positives (in my opinion) are that the younger generation are simply not as "racist" as the older folk - skip, skop, Greek, Cro or whatever.....and I'm not talking about Adam Goodes being booed at the afl.

 

To me the "ethnic" rivalries of the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s are nearly gone (except at the very local and amateur level), and I say good riddance.  

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The older generation is basically already gone, younger fans outnumber greek immigrants at hellas games these days, the ethnic issue has very little relevance today due to the fact that the supporter bases are now 2nd and 3rd generation and don't have the same hardcore edge they once had to them, the rivalries though are historic and will always remain. Hellas supporters now love to brag about the superior head to head record against Heidelberg ( only lost once to them in the last 5 years), these are pure football rivalries.

Let's not forget the ethnic rivalries at national level died in 1992 when Preston were relegated, the Nsl had become ethnic rivalry free over a decade before it ended. The rest was all spin, in any case all the violent thugs got to the a league now anyway...but that's fine because they are defending the city they live in or something so that's acceptable violence.

The A league die hards carry on like they single handedly invented mainstream soccer, yet my main memories of the 90s was going to bob jane to watch hellas play Perth, Brisbane strikers, northern spirit, parramatta power, Wollongong wolves, carlton etc, surprise surprise no trouble use to occur at these games, yet nowadays a contest between a Sydney and melbourne team can turn the streets into a battleground, I've seen this first hand when the wanderers thugs decided to trash the melbourne cbd on a Saturday afternoon. These same people have the nerve to claim that it's too dangerous for my club to be in the top flight again, a lot of greeks even say this, it's all agenda driven.

Edited by Greekoz
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^^^ Violence is violence and there's no excuse for it, but there's a difference when it's racially motivated. Very different to defending your city or state or whatever. 

 

Can you imagine an Albanian-backed team fighting with a Skop-backed team in the streets of Athens, all over their politics and country of origin? 

 

Well that's what Australians saw here when Preston, Croatia, Hellas, George Cross, etc, had incidents at or after matches. I'm glad those days are gone, and hope they never return. Can you blame the "Aussies" for not going to games with all that s%$#! going on?

 

And this is not an A-league vs NSL debate at all. It's about ridding the national league of ethnic tensions and rivalries, and that's what the AL has done.  

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Perhaps that is the case, but the mainstream did not attend games because many clubs in the final years of the NSL were still associated with or run by ethnic groups. 

 

When SM played Melb Knights it was still Greece vs Croatia, there's no doubting that. Going to Somers St, for example, does not have many good memories for me.  

 

I was a SM member for many years, and it was still a "Greek" club up till the demise of the NSL. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, but lots of other people obviously did.  

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Lefkaditis, those days are not gone completely.  When South Springvale Aris played in the Dockerty Cup Final last year, the Croatian supporters were back to their old best.

 

They took a large banner from a bunch of 13 year old kids and even pushed and shoved some of them.  These Croatian supporters were a few years older and did it in front of their parents who didn't stop it.  When some of our adult fans went over to ask for it back, they denied it, and it almost came to blows.  In the end our parents decided to let it go, otherwise who knows what would've happened.  For the rest of the game they heckled and were making threatening gestures.  That is your NSL of old guys, and it's still around.  There is nothing to deny, it's just a fact.  Doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I don't want my wife or son seeing it.

 

Admittedly, SMH and Heidelberg were never like that.  To be fair, the Croatians are by far the most worst (what is wrong with them?) and the Skops the dumbest.

 

But, here is the thing, the people that run the A-League don't distinguish between who is ok or who is not.  They lump all of the old NSL teams in the same boat.

 

N.B.  After the game the "theft" of the banner was reported to the police and it was returned a few days later.

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The cros are very hot headed and in many ways still consider themselves to be the equivalent of the Cro national team, most of their current players even now are cros. They're a lot more tame now compared to what they use to be but if you try mess with them they belt you, where as far as I've been told the hellas supporters up on the Gold Coast last week were called "a bunch of wogs" and other derogatory terms by these gold coast bogans and just let it go, it would have been a blood bath if they pulled that stunt with the cros. That's the difference we are not motivated by friction, we just wanna see our team play/ win and play the the highest possible level. Others are motivated by tension and showing off how tough they are, the cros do, and those A league flogs are probably the worst overall. Can't say I've ever experienced any problems with Turks and Albanians locally, the skops are probably the biggest scum in terms of trouble, no doubt for them the A league was a dream come true as they saw the demise of the strong greek backed clubs as a result of it. The cros on the other hand are just plain lunatics and would cause trouble against anyone, but they aren't motivated by ethnicity unless against Serbs, the cros are very similar to the young flogs that attend the a league, they will look for any excuse to misbehave if it's available to them.

Anyhow south won tonight 4-2 against Port melbourne, entertaining game and great performance, top spot within sight.

Edited by Greekoz
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Very much agree about the Croatians. I've met some nice ones, but generally I find that there's always something "not quite right" about them. Not only the predisposition to violence (and extreme patriotism), it's more than that. Must be a genetic trait (or defect)?

 

This was discussed in the other GS forum, but going to Somers St in the 90s to watch matches was not pleasant......just shut your mouth and hope nothing happens. Luckily most of the time we came away victors.

 

As a player in the amateurs, the most violent people/clubs we came across were the Turks, followed by the skops. I'm generally not one to put anybody or any race down, but animals and peasants was the only way to describe them. I can recall a skop team from Altona, with players who regularly threatened to "f**k your mother and your sister".......luckily I never had a sister. 

 

This is why I say good riddance to the days of ethnic rivalries in football. Just thinking about it makes me sick.  

Edited by Lefkaditis
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What I'm arguing is that 90% of the time it has nothing do to with ethnic rivalry! more so the fact that these people are just pure trouble makers! and yes the Turks were bad in my juniors days! I recall once a Turk father went onto the field and belted his son in front of everyone for no reason, the cros don't discriminate against nationality, they don't care if youre Serb, greek, Aussie or Ugandan..if you get up close to them they are keen for a fight! it's part of their dna. Let's be honest a lot of these trouble makers in the A league are cut from the same cloth, mostly trouble making ethnic teens, with the introduction of west Sydney we have added Arabs to the trouble making list as well.

Violence is arguably worse now, instead it's been turned into some sort of state of origin defend your place battleground, I've been in the city so many times before a big melbourne victory game and the police presence and general tension outside the ground is pretty extreme, because these clubs weren't created by migrants they get a free kick to basically do whatever they want.

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I think the local media portrays "soccer" as a violent sport full stop (the fans that is).

 

Whether it's racially motivated or not, they like to put the sport down whenever they can. This was highlighted by the MV / WSW trouble in the Melb CBD a couple of years ago - nothing to do with race or culture, just the fact it was soccer. 

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I was in the city that day doing some shopping and saw it first hand, no matter what it was it deserved to be a big story, they turned Bourke st into a warzone, throwing chairs and pretty much anything else they could get their hands on. It's easily the worst brawl I've ever seen in relation to sport. While the media did play it up, if it was one of the wog clubs involved they would have been calling for expulsion from the league like they use to, but as I said it's really the same type of fans, you could tell a large portion of the wanderers fans were cros and Arabs, you could tell a lot of the MV fans were greeks as well I even recognised a few of them, the team names are different but the trouble makers are of the same ilk.

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No doubt MVFC have plenty of wogs from the outer North/West supporting them...these guys are far more dangerous in this generation than the little greek kids were in the 1980s...society is far more dangerous and drug fueled violence is common in society..

 

a lot of these guys would have arseholes for parents....so there are very little morals in this sub set of dickheads.

 

WSW are just Arab and blockhead thugs.

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Avondale 0-7 South

Played on a disgraceful cow paddock in Avondale, ball bobbling everywhere, uneven ground, in general pathetic facilities, took south a good 10-15 minutes to realise that trying to play anything resembling football on this ground would be a waste of time, started playing direct, they scored 2 comical own goals and the floodgates opened soon after, after they dropped off and gave up south started bringing out the party tricks as the goals kept flowing, sad to see massimo murdocha reduced to playing for a club like that, he was quality but one player can't do much.

Due to this flogging if south win the last 2 games, home against Hume on Wednesday and northcote home again on Sunday we will finish top on goal difference and quality for the national playoffs, hopefully some good crowds.

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Beat northcote 3-0 and secured back to back top spot finishes in front of a very healthy crowd today.

We have the bye next week and advance straight to a home semi final, it's the m*****a A league finals system so no double chances.

Even more importantly we have qualified for the national playoffs, we will be hosting the Tasmanian champions in the quarter final in a few weeks time, if we win this tournament against the other states premier league champions we will automatically qualify for next years FFA cup.

On a sour note we are all waiting on the news of our star striker milos lujic who appeared to injure himself badly late in the game, fingers crossed he will be ok.

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We face pascoe vale this Friday night at 7.30 at home, if we win we make the grand final, they beat Heidelberg in penalties in today which is a bit of an upset. Hopefully everyone comes out in force. A lot is at stake here cos the grand final is also at lakeside I've been told.

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Crazy scenes last night, 1-1 after normal time, pascoe vale goes ahead 1-2 in extra time, we peg it back to 2-2 and then we scored the winner in the 119th minute with a corner goal that brings back memories of tsiartas to dellas in the euro semis, place went bonkers. I'll try put the highlights up soon.

We take on bentleigh in the grand final next Sunday at 3pm, it will be at lakeside so we have home field advantage, get out to the game, spread the word to anyone you know, it's a grand final all old school fans should be there, hopefully a huge crowd.

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