Jump to content
Phantis Forums

Syriza at the Helm


Guest PastMember

Recommended Posts

  • 3 weeks later...

Varoufakis held the world economy hostage. All he wanted was better terms on the bailouts. 

When the U.S was the domino that started the crisees in Europe, no one said anything. No one could do anything. Not even the U.S government did anything against those responsible. 

Many years later, what has changed? Greece/Syriza capitulated to the troika and we have the same amount of debt from the start of the crisis while receiving as much bailout money as our entire GDP. Pension funds where wiped out, savings, welfare cut, government services cut, government spending cut, economy still in tatters. 

All that happened was that private debt to external banks was paid by the troika/European taxpayer. Our economy is still F***ed and those responsible got away with it. All the bailouts did was shift the burden onto European and Greek taxpayers. The ones blamed where Greek taxpayers. 


Can't anyone see that if Syriza didn't change its tune the political power brokers in the EU would have implicated high profile oligarchs and politicians in this mess, throwing them under the bus instead of the taxpayers? Why else would Syriza change tunes so quickly? Either do as your told and accept the bailout, OR, we will lay the blame on you and gut you. Syriza went back home, the oligarchs and wealthy told them to cover them and they'll reciprocate by covering them in the media. Syriza held a referendum and still went against it. And people voted them back in! What does that tell you? 
That doesn't absolve Syriza of their actions of course. They still capitulated and threw the taxpayers under the bus to hold onto their power and wealth. 

What happens behind the scenes is the real politics. What happens in the media isn't politics. How can people still believe the media narrative?

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

none if that explains why we fail to collect taxes, enforce laws, have terrible red tape that does not allow businesses to open and flourish.. etc etc

 

Or the inefficient bloated public service and education system that holds progress to ransom...etc etc...

 

what about the 'varia epagelmata'??  hairdressers??

 

opening up competition ?? etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SYRIZA told the same lies to win power as other parties/leaders before. Its ..bravado against the Europeans was a bluff and a costly one at that.  In the absence of an alternative, Tsipras remained in power, showing that dishonesty and incompetency can pay off in the Greek political system.

 

Defaulting and leaving Europe was the worst outcome, and everyone but the fringe political parties, realized it. The parties (outside the smaller fringe ones) would have to abide by the European demands.  What Syriza could have done, realistically, was to revamp the way government and the public sector works. To finally modernize the state, the legal system, education, separate church-state, stop corruption. It failed in that too. They've been hiring their own adding more parasites to the cost of running the state.

 

Now they're thinking of changing the electoral law to prevent ND from winning a governing majority. Same crap Andreas did when he was in power. Tsipras has copied Andreas perfectly.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greece's GDP in 2000 was $130 billion. In 2004 it was $240 billion. In 2008 it reached $354 billion. In 2012 it went down to $245 billion.
As soon as we entered the Eurozone with it's golden ticket, the euro, our GDP grew 272% in 8 years. 

In the same time, Belgium's GDP grew 218%. Ireland's grew 276%. Lithuania's grew 427%. Spain's grew 268%.  

 

How is this possible? Add in the factors of a stronger unified currency, the actual performance of the economy, and inlfux of cheap debt maybe? 

 

Taxes are a problem, no one pays taxes! In 2000:
22% of government revenues where from income tax, profits and capital gains compared to 17% for Germany.
28% of revenue was from taxes on goods and services compared to Germany's 20%.
Taxes on international trade are non-existant for Greece or Germany.
4.34% of revenue was from other revenues, Germany's was 0%. 
Greece has 29% of revenue as social contributions compared to Germany's 58%. 
Tax revenue as a percentage of GDP, Greece's was 22% while Germany's was 11%. 
Total revenue as a percentage of GDP was 40% for Greece and 30% for Germany. 


In 2000:
Germany's expenses on employee's was 5% of total expenses compared to Greece's 21%.
7% of expenses for Germany where on interest payments compared to 16% for Greece. 
80% was for subsidies and other transfers compared to Greece's 38%.
Germany spent 3.7% on goods and services compared to Greece's 13%.


It is clear we had and still have a bloated public sector and lots of interest payments but, why does no one want to explain why Greece's gross external debt went from 181 billion euro in 2003 to 317 billion euro currently, when we where given 240 billion euro's in loans? 
From the first tranche of bailout money "we" received, most of it went to foreign banks. The troika didn't even ask for systemic changes in the way the government does business. They didn't force government efficiency. They didn't offer adequate debt relief. They asked for cuts in military spending (one of the highest by % of GDP, in EU) and the government cut soldier's wages instead of procurement of armaments. Along with the billions spent on dud submarines from the Germans the rest of the equipment is mostly useless since maintenance costs where also cut. We have twice as many tanks as the U.K. 
They asked for cuts in government expenses on social services, firesale of government assets and a haircut on deposits. 

I don't understand how any of you can see from these facts that Greeks don't pay their fair share of taxes. Shipping companies which are a large portion of our GDP provide near 0% taxes through various exemptions. The movement of wealthy people's funds in offshore accounts is what exactly?
The corporate tax rate dropped from 40% in 2000 to 20% in 2010. The lowest VAT is 6.5% on newspapers and magazines. 
There's 20 billion euro in offshore funds held by Greeks. 
Around 15,000 individuals and companies owe the taxman 37 billion euros, according to Venizelos. 
What happened to the Lagarde List? Oh that's right, Voula the hairdresser had the journalist, who published the names, arrested for breach of privacy.


It's all Voula the hairdressers fault and her 15,000 friends. No other country on earth has people who cheat the tax system. 


I said it before, Syriza had meetings with wealthy and powerful people, agreed to take the brunt of hate and not change laws that affect the wealthy in exchange for being kept in power. The same thing will happen to N.D, PASOK, KKE, Bernie Sanders or anyone else wanting to lead the country. 
No way, no  how, the country will be lead by idealists with proper reform. The poor will always take the brunt. 
The British and Danes did the same when a list of tax evaders was given to their authorities. In November 2012 the UK tax authority declined to prosecute those named on the list.

This s%$#! happens all over the world, how can any of you believe what is presented in the media when the facts speak for themselves? 

  • Like it 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

who are ones not wanting reforms?

 

as the 'rich' will benefit from real reforms??

 

 who are the ones against streamlining the bloated public service?

 

who are the ones stopping proper tax reform?

 

workplace relations?

 

don't the 'rich' want more development? growth? investment?

 

who stops an industry from setting up business in Greece? 

 

How do you create jobs?

 

How do you create jobs and opportunities?

 

why hasn't Elliniko been developed?  is it the wealthy ship owners fault?

 

who is going to tell the lao a 10 year degree in philosophy does NOT get you a job for life at the museum? 

 

who is going to tell the lao that getting a job in the dimosio via messon is not what the country needs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me get this straight now... for decades Greece was paying 15%+ of revenue on interest payments. In 1995, Greece was spending 25% of revenue on interest payments. In 2000, they got it down to 16%. 

From 1995 onwards, our debt to gdp ratio was always above 100%. Between 95 and mid 08, Ireland's was always below 60%, reaching as low as 28%. 

Greece has had the highest ratio of revenue to gdp in comparison to Ireland and Germany starting at 31%, 15% and 8% respectively, in 1995.

 

 

Iceland, Portugal, Greece, Ireland, U.S, Spain, Italy, and the rest of the world had financial problems, at the same time, with Iceland's banks having borrowed 10x their national gdp, Ireland had a housing bubble, U.S banks intertwining to create a financial bubble, and your view, after all this info, is that 50 year old retired hairdresser Voula is responsible for the Greek financial crisis. 

Not only that, but Syriza, who have been in power for one year and a couple of days, is the problem. 

 

Harshest austerity imposed, pensions feeding entire families, welfare cuts, tax hikes, workers haven't been paid in months, and yet, Syriza who tried to stand up to the EU and IMF where wrong to do that. 


Is Syriza to blame for the EU considering removing Greece from the Schengen area to stem refugees from entering Europe? A nation suffering all these years not only has to deal with the influx of Muslim refugees but the EU's plan of blocking the borders for Greece, keeping millions of refugees in an already strained, dilapidated nation while giving gifts to the tune of 3 billion euro to Turkey. 

Great "help" there from the EU. After all, they did handle the Greek bailout so well.

Wake the F up. 


Bonus points! It's weird how when Socratis Kokkalis wants a 4 star Uefa rated stadium, it's built in "record" time. Maybe the red tape machine stopped working those 14 months and the government workers where on holidays. 
It's also weird how interconnected all our proud billionaires are with the political class. Being involved with government projects and assets. Also weird how Oligarchs popped up in Russia when Putin took over and privatized some assets and made sweet deals for his buddies who went on to make billions at the expense of the public. 

But I guess Russia = communists, so they're evil, while U.S.A keeps mentioning "freedom" so they're good guys, and Greece is just lazy and mooching off the system. 

There's no pattern here or anywhere else on earth where wealthy and well connected people use their influence to change laws or purchase public assets on the cheap, that favors them to make billions of dollars. No where. 

Microsoft, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Gazprom, Itracom, Aegean Marine Petroleum, Apple, Samsung, Siemens, HSBC, GE, etc.

 

 

 

It's all that bitch Voula's fault. 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

you live in a functional society with a strong economy...

 

ask yourself why, that is so?

 

 

greece has not been functioning properly for decades.....

 

syriza have been in power for 53 weeks....

 

however a whole nation has had Syriza ideology programmed in them for 50 years....Voula is the poster child for an entire nations psyche on how the lao should think/breath/sleep/react on all socio/political./economic issues...

Voula represents the collective train wreck....

 

Not sure why/how Russia and Putin's privatization 'buddy deals' has anything to do with Greece...  and in fact the construction of Karaiskaki being completed in record time  (due to Athens 2004 pressure - and for no other reason) proves that things can get done when the heat is on ...and when the heat is turned higher by outsiders and by international organisations...

 

The initial failure of the Athens 2004 project to keep to time-frames showed the Voula/greek/Syriza  deep lying ideology.

The end project showed what happens when someone puts a rocket up our backsides, and demands results..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is all this Syriza's fault? How is it ND's fault? How is it Pasok's fault? 
How are the successful Greek businesses run so successfully? Why is there so much red tape for everyone else? Who told the middle and working classes to pump money into Athex? Who lost the most with the financial crisis?

The biggest company in Greece is the Coca Cola Hellas Bottling Company at a market cap of 6.8 billion euro.
Second is Hellenic Tellecom at 3.9 billion. 
Third is Alpha Bank at 2.8 billion.

Fourth is National Bank of Greece at 2.2 billion euro.

Fifth is OPAP.

 

The top 115 Greek companies have a market cap higher than 1 million euro. 
The Top 200 Australian companies have a market cap higher than 240 million AUD.  

The Athex is 17% of GDP while the ASX 200 is roughly 100% of GDP. 

As I mentioned, the wealthy control politics. Barely anyone new enters the market or at least challenges market leaders in Greece. When the big dogs want things done, they get things done. If Voula wants to open a hair salon, she first has to compete with the state and its red tape. If she can survive that she will need 3 accountants to manoeuvre around Greece's tax code or, she can avoid paying tax but still contribute to the economy by hiring workers, buying groceries, hair gel, etc. 


Remember Dominic Strauss Kahn? He wanted progressive reform as opposed to austerity, saying in a meeting: "Ultimately, employment and equity are building blocks of economic stability and prosperity, of political stability and peace. This goes to the heart of the IMF's mandate. It must be placed at the heart of the policy agenda". 
What happened next? Oh, apparently he sexually assaulted a woman and had to step down as managing director of the IMF. 
Julian Assange spreads diplomatic cables and other information exposing this that and the other? Apparently he raped a woman in Sweden. 
Everyone in Italy knew Berlusconi was a crook. Yet as soon as he needs to do something important, but doesn't, bang! tax evasion conviction. Then Monti was forcefully appointed Prime Minister in a democratic nation, as was Papademos 5 days earlier. Coincidence?  

As I said before, you think any of these wealthy people are clean? They all have dirt on each other and as long as they play by the rules they're fine. As soon as they stop playing by the rules, a sexual assault occurs, tax evasion, corruption, insider trading, murder, bla, bla, bla. 
Hell the U.S supported Francisco Franco for claiming in public to be anticommunist and was asked to join the United Nations. FRANCO! The guy who set up concentration camps and purged his own countrymen for being socialist, communist, anarchist, republican, intellectual, Catalan, etc, etc. 

How are you not sure how the example of Putin factors into Greece? Everyone knows the government is the moneymaker. No different in Greece. Favourable contracts worth billions of taxpayer monies, government assets sold at below market value, etc. 


Australia a functional society? Subjectively, every society is a functional society, depends who you ask. 
Do you think that private energy companies gold plating poles and building excess infrastructure, without governmental oversight, and charging it to the taxpayers and the bill payers and the media playing it down, is functional?
Do you think that pseudo-educational institutions popping up after the government deregulated the educational sector and government educational standards oversight committees where private entities are popping up charging tens of thousands for useless education certificates, paid for with government subsidies/the taxpayer, is functional? 
Do you think the constant barrage of attacks on the less well off while discounting ^^these and other problems is a part of a functional society? 

Eeeeeeh, mining boom, tax cuts, Private debt 180% of gdp (one of the highest in the world), house prices soaring, wages remaining flat, public healthcare being gutted, social services being gutted, tax laws altered to suit the oligarchs and wealthy because they might be "kidnapped", low inflation rates, and so on, are part of a functional society? 

The only difference between you and me and the versions of you and me in Greece is that we live in a "young" society unchanged by constant wars, that has grown by investing in proper avenues by decent leaders. And even then, those came at the expense of something that made us worse off *cough* negative gearing *cough*. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are right....

 

all this is not the fault of syriza......but I have said for many years....SYRIZA, ND, PASOK  etc are merely acronyms..they mean nothing...

 

You can use the 'wars' as the excuse...but the rest of Europe chose not to go down the same path as we did....Europe as a whole has been ravaged by wars...

 

we 'the greeks' have collectively forced the hand of politicians to become the SYRIZA, ND, PASOK we know today...

we have demanded a government to establish a society that benefits our closed minded ideology.....and 'syriza' is the end product.....No other functional European nation would EVER elect a 'professional agitator' like Tsipra to power...

 

Who do we collectively blame for Voula facing all the red tape?   what role do the likes of P.A.M.E play in this?  All the ones protecting 'closed professions' do they really know what other opportunities can be created if they 'opened their minds'?

it seems nobody wants to change the problems with the system.

the biggest issue for me is that all these 'rizospastes' or 'revolutionaries' are far more dangerous than the alternative.

 

I am not saying Australia is perfect...there are huge problems here, however it functions in a way that other societies fail.

 

negative gearing for the super wealthy is a problem..but as a concept for most people it has some merit..(not that i am benefiting at the moment)..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the acronyms mean nothing that who is behind these political groups? The ideology is all the same. You give the idea of true representative democracy too much credit.

What Syriza said before they gained power was completely different to what Syriza are doing. Yet the people voted in Syriza before they promised one thing and did another. Twice. 
You think Europe wasn't sweating under Varoufakis' speeches and intentions? As soon as they pushed favourable changes for themselves in Greece, Varoufakis was left with nothing, and quit. There's nothing wrong with agitation, especially when you're not making outrageous demands. The EU made the same mistakes as they did post ww1, except the difference was that PIGS where no military powerhouses. The extremists and fascist groups have popped up though. 

All those who wanted to change the system, from one side of the spectrum to the other, have been shut down to preserve the status quo. Look at Greek soccer for example. 
A competitor of Aek could easily infiltrate the fan clubs, the presidency and shareholder decisions. The benefit in crippling your opponent outweighs the cost because the benefits occur with easier access to the CL group stages. Fans run riot, cause violence, club gets fined. Repeat ad nauseum. Shareholders make poor decision after poor decision. Spending money on players all the time. Everyone makes a cut at the clubs expense. 
Nikolaidis wanted to change all that. He wanted to get rid of the violence, handle the board and build a stadium. What happened? His own fans turned on him and kicked him out. How was this even possible? Behind the scenes dealings and media propaganda. Have these positive measures been implemented? No. Why? They made sense didn't they? Why has no one else stood in and said "we need to improve the game"?
 

12 years later the club either have to get through too much red tape or media propaganda is going on about the stadium is "going to be built". 
In those 12 years what has happened? The league as a whole has gotten weaker and those in charge have been asleep at the wheel. Or have they? Volos, Aris, Aek, Hraklis, etc, etc have all had financial problems. Corruption has been rife. Competition has gotten weak. The game is a joke. Yet only one club is squeaky clean with a new stadium. That makes no sense. 

Either Olympiakos can somehow overcome all these obstacles within the club, and in the league OR, they are the status quo, and the league caters to them. The SL+EPO have sat back and done nothing. Just like the government caters to the wealthy while the media covers everything up. The big pay off is the CL groups/government contracts. Those who want complete destruction of the system or vast improvements are ostracized. The fans/people have no clue what's going on. The media keeps everyone confused and distracted. The wheels keep spinning. 

What happened to the Lagarde list? Average Greeks don't pay taxes. I'm not saying it's not a problem but it's not THE problem. Yet it's the main one being focused on. Even here in Australia. 
Gina Rinehart is protected from showing her taxes because she might be "kidnapped" but we'll demonize welfare recipients for a few million to show we're doing something. The few multinationals that "legally" pay zero net tax could raise billions yet welfare cheats are the problem they focus on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It will take 100s of years to remove and Turkey is aware of this.  You see Turkey is aware of this Ottoman Victim Psyche and plays a very clever game.

 

A game so clever they managed to lose all of their Empire, and are now despised by pretty much almost every country that has any dealings with them.

 

So what Turkey does is violate Greek airspace and waters! every week. They fund Mosques from Azerbaijan to  Albania - the mosque they just built in Tirana over-shadows the Albanian Parliament and Albanians are mad about it - but they will settle down - just as the Greeks did after Turkey established grey zones in the Aegean in the 1970s!! Turkey keep their fingers in their former possessions like a mother who wont stop harassing and meddling in her kids lives - who are now fully grown adults and live if different countries with their own families! lol.gif This is where Russia and Turkey are smart. They know these former residents of the Ottoman Empire/ Russian Empire are broken mentally. That is half the battle. The other half of the battle for Turkey is to keep Turkish politics in their face by any means. And then - the victim's circle is complete. The Greeks and Balkanites are happy with the situation too! Karpman invented a triangle to describe the relationship:

 

 

I wouldn't consider Turkey or Russia models of social or economic progress.  There really is not much to admire about both of these nations.  The truth is, they are backwards, and their thinking is based on "Balkan" strategy, but one which doesn't really apply in the modern world.  I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of the "law" in either of these countries.  Backwards, violent, corrupt.

Edited by Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Plays' as in present tense. Not played. Turkey is in a very strong position currently - America cannot defend Turkey quick enough. Also untrue to say Turkey is despised by almost every country. Turkey is adored by the UK, Germany and the US - all of whom are desperate to fast-track Turkey into the EU.

 

Ah come on, what the governments, diplomats and multi-nationals want is very different to what the people want.  No common citizen in the EU wants anything to do with Turkey.  To say they are in a strong position geopolitically is fair enough, but adored is a big stretch.

 

No one is, so that is a straw man. The point that you have circumnavigated with impressive force is how Russia can do what it likes to Ukraine and its former subjects and how Turkey can do what it likes to Kurds, Cyprus (invasion), Aegean (creation of grey zones and violations weekly). This is about the right to bully - no need to use reductio ad absurdum to try and cloud the issue of what Turkey does successfully against Greece. 

 

Not sure what you're trying to claim here.  Are you confused ?  Yes, we all know Turkey and Russia use their power to bully.  I'm simply stating that as nations, their isn't much to admire ... at all.  Who would want to live in such countries.  They suck.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@manolara

 

using Demi and greek soccer as analogy is interesting.... and somewhat flawed...sure greek soccer and greek society have major issues...but as an anti osfp fan you use the analogy in a very 'cute' way...

 

one can argue that AEK  and PAOK are much healthier financially despite the $$$ crisis.....much healthier financially than EVER...

The 'demise' in greek soccer in the last 10 years has come because Tzigger pulled out of PAO..

You see PAO and OSFP are Greece's  only real FOOTBALL CLUBS...PAOK/AEK sadly represent things ideologically other than football...so even if they now have money $$$ ...they have proven they are not football clubs.... ( a Demi with passion and vision was gunned down from within - proves a lot)..

 

 

however one can argue that demi's plan to build a new stadium was a problem because it was 'in the wrong spot'....  a very greek way of arguing ...a very P.A.M.E  - SYRIZA way of stopping progress..

 

Tell me...what would have happened had ODDY been built? would AEK be better off...?? and if NO? why?

 

Having an 'agitator' as PM is beyond ridiculous..  as he has NO real plans...

 

You completely ignore that our fundamental problems stem from within and elements of the mentality that Reaper describes..WE CREATED THIS MESS...

 

If this was a Portuguese, Italian , Belgian, French soccer site.....no one would care  if their nation became allies with Israel it may cause 'arab backlash'...

but on a greek site this seems to be an issue or concern...

reason is we are always looking at the 'progressive' world with envy..because we know we should be there..BUT refuse to want to change from within...it's all too difficult...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greeks for the most part still have an Ottoman Victim Mentality.

 

I'm not quite convinced because if you look at Turkey and Russia, they're similar in their autocratic style of rule under Putin and Erdogan. 

Both heads of their nations, (Erdogan for 11 years, Putin for 17 years), both have subdued and silenced their opponents, both have censored their media, both have used the state to make themselves and their friends rich, both have subverted the law, both limit the internet, both control state media, etc, etc. 

Some similar muddled s%$#! has occurred in Greece too. 

See the thing with the sanctions on Russia, imposed by the EU-US, only affected your average Russian citizen. The oligarchs with their multi-million dollar Manhattan apartments, English football clubs and other foreign assets in "allied" nations, was untouched. Yet the EU/US wanted to send a message? Putin could just blame the EU/US, ridding himself of the blame while being a bit annoyed. His wealthy friends were mostly fine. 

Erdogan is doing similar s%$#!. Using public funds to give favorable contracts to his mates. Saying that, they have similar problems to Greece: 

The economy also suffers from a range of home-grown troubles. Onerous regulations make it hard for small businesses to grow bigger and more efficient. The World Economic Forum, a think-tank, ranks Turkey 131st out of 144 countries by labour-market efficiency

 

Big privately held holding companies dominate many sectors, squeezing out smaller, more innovative firms.

 

 They may, like Turkey, have learned how to assemble cars or washing machines, boost agricultural productivity or mobilise capital and labour, but they find it harder to add value through research, design, branding and marketing.

 

?The AK government that had supported the economic opening made an about-face once it became sufficiently powerful,? they write. ?Gradually, the de jure and de facto control of the ruling cadre intensified, amplifying corruption and arbitrary, unpredictable decision-making.?

A paper by two other economists, Esra Gurakar of Okan University and Umut Gunduz of Istanbul Technical University, illustrates the point. The adoption of a law in 2001 to regulate government procurement at first improved transparency, it says. With time, however, the number of exceptions to the law grew and the share of public contracts awarded via open auction shrank. By 2011 some 44% of government contracts were being awarded by unaccountable bureaucrats.

 

Businesses without friends in government have suffered. One of Turkey?s most successful construction conglomerates, with a fat international order book and an annual turnover of close to $6 billion, has not won a big Turkish government contract since the AK party took power. Some say this is because it is seen as too close to Western governments that have been critical of the party. Similarly, companies that own media outlets have been cut out of business in other fields if they fail to toe the line. The share price of Dogan Holding, which owns some of the few remaining independent newspapers and TV channels, fell by 16% on news of November?s election results.

Firms with the right contacts, say critics of the government, have done well, winning not just direct state contracts but privileged access to deals involving state-owned land and getting early warning of regulatory and zoning changes. One example is TOKI, the state agency for affordable housing, which the AK has turned into a partner for private developers. ?There is a cycle,? says Mustafa Sonmez, an economist: ?I give you public land, you build, we share?it?s a great way to reward friends.?

Slippage is also in evidence over the independence of Turkey?s central bank, or TCMB. The bank is generally held in high regard, but in recent years it has failed either to rein back inflation, currently around 9%, or to prevent a steady decline in the value of the Turkish lira, which has fallen by half against the dollar since 2010. Many economists and businessmen pin the blame on Mr Erdogan, who has publicly badgered the bank to keep interest rates down. On one occasion he accused its governor, Erdem Basci, of being a traitor to the nation for championing a higher rate. A recent analysis of TCMB policies by economists at the Centre for Financial Studies at the Goethe University in Frankfurt reckons that between 2010 and 2014 Turkey?s central bank on average set the official interest rate about 7 percentage points too low, judging by its own policy responses in the previous decade.

 

Source: The economist  

Politics vs Turkey? s%$#!.

Spending on military? Both high. 

Economy? In some aspects similar. We have double their gdp per capita, they have a larger gdp. We have more debt, their debt's are rated as junk by Moody's.

Bureaucracy? Similar. 

The only thing I can say that Turkey is a winner in, compared to us, is diplomacy. 

That said, both countries have people who stand up for what is right, for justice, for freedom, etc. The problem is Turkish and Greek "revolutionaries" coming together for peace and prosperity is dangerous and damages the status quo. Even independently, they're still dangerous. 

 

Point I'm making is that the "big guys" are always untouched and the socio-political environment is the one where it is easiest to control the proles. Greeks are slightly smarter so more political parties and media outlets confuse them. Turks rally around Islam. Russians can't tell the difference between a dictator and socialism. 

Then again, either can yanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@manolara

 

using Demi and greek soccer as analogy is interesting.... and somewhat flawed...sure greek soccer and greek society have major issues...but as an anti osfp fan you use the analogy in a very 'cute' way...

 

one can argue that AEK  and PAOK are much healthier financially despite the $$$ crisis.....much healthier financially than EVER...

The 'demise' in greek soccer in the last 10 years has come because Tzigger pulled out of PAO..

You see PAO and OSFP are Greece's  only real FOOTBALL CLUBS...PAOK/AEK sadly represent things ideologically other than football...so even if they now have money $$$ ...they have proven they are not football clubs.... ( a Demi with passion and vision was gunned down from within - proves a lot)..

 

 

however one can argue that demi's plan to build a new stadium was a problem because it was 'in the wrong spot'....  a very greek way of arguing ...a very P.A.M.E  - SYRIZA way of stopping progress..

 

Tell me...what would have happened had ODDY been built? would AEK be better off...?? and if NO? why?

 

Having an 'agitator' as PM is beyond ridiculous..  as he has NO real plans...

 

You completely ignore that our fundamental problems stem from within and elements of the mentality that Reaper describes..WE CREATED THIS MESS...

 

If this was a Portuguese, Italian , Belgian, French soccer site.....no one would care  if their nation became allies with Israel it may cause 'arab backlash'...

but on a greek site this seems to be an issue or concern...

reason is we are always looking at the 'progressive' world with envy..because we know we should be there..BUT refuse to want to change from within...it's all too difficult...

I'm not only anti-osfp I'm also anti-GSL. Every year I follow it less and less. I don't see how my analogy is "cute". All the clubs in the Greek League, in order to be successful in the past 20 years, depended upon ONE sole sugar daddy. If you think United, you think Ferguson. If you think Arsenal, you think Wenger. If you think Bundesliga, you think fan ownership. If you think Barca, you think tiki-taqua/Messi. You think Real, you think wealth/Royal's club/bla bla bla. 

What's happened in the League all these years? Clubs have received less and less revenue. Aris, Paok, Pao, everyone. A lot have gone bankrupt. A lot are full of corruption. Yet the fans still kept going. 

You bring up that AEK+Paok are financially healthier because they have a backing of a sugar daddy. Demi wanted to set up Aek to be financially sound. He was the only president, that I can think of, who was ousted from the club for doing so. Beos was a crook yet he was still at the club. No problems until Koriopolis. Marinakis is implicated in a 2 tonne heroin smuggling operation in Piraeus, also involving an ex-olympiakos board member. Nothing. Makaros at Aek? Left on his own accord. 

Yet only Nikolaidis was forced out. Which other president has gone forth offering progressive reforms and passed them? Every other Aek president we had between Demi and Melisanidi I had no idea who the F*** these people where and why the media kept hyping them up. Clearly, things where happening behind the scenes. 

Nikolaidis was ostracized out of the country while Marinakis was voted a Piraeus city council member and Beos was voted as a mayor. How is my analogy flawed, I still don't understand? Greek League is producing nothing. Most clubs are deep in debt. Only one is fine and supported by the League. The rest are left to rot which is clearly, and i repeat CLEARLY, Greece 0-1 Faroe Islands, affecting the National Team. 

If this was France I would already be suffering an "Arab Backlash" and the exodus of the Jewish community because of it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@manolara  OFF TOPIC

 

being openly anti GSL and Anti OSFP...you will have 'cute' analogies on this....

I recall respected Aris fans on the other site being caught up in greek conspiracy theories...

when I pushed them though, they admitted 95% of their debt/problems/issues were self inflicted and from within...

 

AEK/PAOK/ARIS were well and truly broke  10 years before marinakis took over.... those clubs had massive internal issues .

I don;t need to mention Batatoudis, psomiadis,NEDMED, etc ...these events took place years before fat boy....even before uncle Kokkalis took control..

 

essentially the comparison between football and greek economy/society in this context is that one never takes responsibility or accountability for their own stuff ups or lack of expertise...in greece it's much easier to blame the bogey man...

 

I think you have missed the point in Reaper's statement about Greeks not being able to shake off the ottoman curse...

 

Russia and Turkey are not great examples of democracy ......they have moved on in way that best suited them...they are being run by corrupt billionaire nasty dictators....  there may not have been a better way to control their people ? I don't know..

 

Greece is governed in a very different way.....thankfully???

 

what greeks have not been able to shed is the 'loser' 'it's the bogey mans fault' mentality...

 

perhaps the average Russia or Turk thinks the same way...I don't know..

 

greece needs strong progressive leadership...not 'rizospastes' and failed university drop outs running the country....

Thatcher instead of Tsipras...

 

There will be no revolution where the people throw oligarchs in the Aegean and mass celebrations with flags of Che Guevara raised on the Acropolis...

 

SYRIZA and Tsipra did not sell out Greece or willingly break election promises....they merely realised once in power how poor our situation was and there was no alternative....

 

yet the issues now are:

 

1) they don't have the will or know how to make the right radical changes

2) ideologically they don't want to make the changes

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well again, just because Greeks have an Ottoman Victim Mentality - that has nothing to do with how well Russians or Turks live.

 

I'm still not buying it because of what I mentioned above. Turkey might be growing but "per capita" Greece supposedly has twice the living standards than both Russia and Turkey. The same red tape bureaucracy, tight media control, basically, the same problems that we have, Turkey and Russia have. 

Their bourgeois might be smarter in protecting themselves, their assets and, in essence, their country, but the regular citizens are the same. 

The Turks have a pseudo-dictator running the state, just like Russians have a oligopoly/dictatorship. Both nations have tight media control, censorship, assassinations, control of dissent, the eradication of opponents, and a burgeoning corporatocracy made with their friends in the government. Greece isn't that extreme. 

Regular Greek, Russian, Turkish citizens have no say in what happens in government. Much labour is undertaken to cover up what is actually happening but some people are trying to stand up and make a difference in all countries. Mind you it is much harder in Russia than Turkey or Greece but this "Ottoman" mentality, I don't think exists. I had similar theories of my own but I was wrong. 

@Red Sheriff

There's a consistent pattern in GSL teams where random "presidents" and investors come in, the club goes bankrupt "from within" and only Olympiakos is financially sound. As the organisers and those responsible for the Greek Soccer League, why haven't EPO or the Footballing body done anything about weeding out corruption, shifty owners, etc? They are in charge of the league aren't they? 

You keep saying that 'cute' this and 'cute' that yet in a cesspool of corruption, bribery and scandal only one club is ever clean. Surely you're not that naive. Here the top WORLD footballing body was corrupt and everyone knew for ages yet Olympiakos has a stadium built for them in record time, no debt, constant league title wins which get the CL group stages, and you see no problems here? Beos and Marinakis being voted into political positions of power? Makaros, Melissanidis being allowed to own a club? The guy owns OPAP! How is there no conflict of interest here? 

The Turkish league is no different, although all that money at least makes competition better with all the "superstars" they bring in. Yet both national teams are garbage, one (Greece 0-1 Faroe Islands) worse than the other. 

Still no problem? That's cute. 

Greece has had ND/PASOK all these years and the country was no different. Pseudo socialist/communist where voted in and nothing changed. Even if Theodore Roosevelt came back from the dead, he still wouldn't change anything. 

Ideologically? Realistically, the economy is hanging by a thread. What is anyone going to do? Force more austerity onto people when youth unemployment "officially" sits at 50%, unemployment "officially" sits at 25%, the economy is still shrinking from the 25% it already has, pensions are feeding extended families and we are part of a monetary union that doesn't give a F*** about Greece? Are we going to inflate our way out of it? We can't. We can't even get ourselves out of it with austerity either because eventually, there will be nothing left. Cut government spending on pensions, welfare, etc and you will see a reduction in aggregate demand, increase in bankruptcies, meaning less income from tax and more strain on welfare. Privatise and you cut your nose to spite your face. 

What's going to happen when the government fires employees? More unemployed. Privatises public assets and it can continue paying it's debts in the short term while screwing itself over in the long term. 

Syriza at least gave the people a democratic choice with the referendum. They weren't allowed to uphold it by Europe. 

Blame Syriza all you want but y'all can't see the forest for the trees. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

we covered the building of karaiskaki earlier...   there are other clubs run with good financial stability...  Xanthi, Asteras, Atromitos

 

as is PAOK for the first time in 30 years.....this indicates that unless someone is prepared to step up and put money in the club...it will not work...because greeks do not want to or have the know how...to run professional sporting clubs..

 

but clubs go broke the world over.....Liverpool were in deep s%$#! a few years ago....as were several Italian clubs..

 

you know very well there's a huge list of clubs that have gone broke or were broke in the last 20 years...

 

also very cute to raise the plight of Greek NT and Turkish NT....

If you blame the 'corruption' of their federations for recent poor form....then things must have been super clean 20 months ago when we made WC R.16...Or 4 years ago when we made QF of Euro....How corrupt or clean were Turkey when they finished 3rd in the world??

 

How clean was Serie A when Italy won the WC?

How clean is the owner of Dinamo Zagreb?  or all the Ukrainian owners who built those strong clubs?

 

The syriza referendum was not what it was meant to be......it was another cute way to achieve nothing..

 

Like I said...I can't blame SYRIZA for the mess they have only been in power for 54 weeks...It would be absurd to blame them...

 

 

but SYRIZA is merely a creation of Greek society over 45 years...they represent the failed Greek system and ideology....they are not the answer.....they are a result and part of the system...

 

You may wait for the revolution.....it may arrive....but one day soon after a similar system to what we have today will still exist...

 

Greeks need to play within the system..

 

 

There is no doubt that greeks play the victim and the conspiracy card way too often...

I do not know how much of this can be attributed to the ottoman subject mentality...

as other Europeans seem to fall in the same trap......I had an Italian waitress a few months ago...who was very passionate about her anti- capitalist anti USA rant....It was all America's fault for her country going down the s%$#!...   she sounded like a Tsipra speech writer...

Perhaps you want to meet her???  shew was a bit too skinny for my liking....around your age group I would say....

 

Very nice restaurant though.......Her wages were being paid by a capitalist tax cheat...

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

...

.....

 

Like I said...I can't blame SYRIZA for the mess they have only been in power for 54 weeks...It would be absurd to blame them...

 

 

but SYRIZA is merely a creation of Greek society over 45 years...they represent the failed Greek system and ideology....they are not the answer.....they are a result and part of the system...

 

You may wait for the revolution.....it may arrive....but one day soon after a similar system to what we have today will still exist...

 

,,,,,

 

 

There is no doubt that greeks play the victim and the conspiracy card way too often...

I do not know how much of this can be attributed to the ottoman subject mentality...

as other Europeans seem to fall in the same trap......I had an Italian waitress a few months ago...who was very passionate about her anti- capitalist anti USA rant....It was all America's fault for her country going down the s%$#!...   she sounded like a Tsipra speech writer...

 

Very good points. Yes, it goes back to the Ottoman rule and the immediate years of the new country. But, Greeks never managed to get their house in order, because of a certain culture.......

 

Almost everyone believes in conspiracies, plus the notion that Greeks are the smartest, plus the curse of a great past, which means the world owes Greece ..everything.

 

Many friends here believe in magical thinking too. That is, by exiting Europe, denouncing the debt, and declaring ..independence, things will be better and the road to greatness is open.  Yeah.  But, I look at the football league, run by Greeks, and I can't stop thinking that represents how things usually go in the whole country.

 

If, by magic, the national debt disappeared tomorrow, would you be confident in saying Greece would function as a modern, rational, efficient country? :huh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

football is suffering because of the sociopolitical ideology and landscape....

 

 fix the politics then football will fall into line..

 

I heard BBC radio Hard Talk interview with a Syriza minister ...

 

Then I saw a CNBC interview with Kyriakos Mitsotakis.

 

if anyone gets a chance to listen to these two interviews...it is clear that Syriza are not fit to govern.....NEVER will be..professional radical agitators...

 

Mitsotakis has ideas, a clear vision...a modern Western statesman....

 

enough of the no tie, cheap leather jackets.......this is not a 1980 College debating class...this is meant to be a modern European country..

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

football is suffering because of the sociopolitical ideology and landscape....

 

 fix the politics then football will fall into line..

 

I heard BBC radio Hard Talk interview with a Syriza minister ...

 

Then I saw a CNBC interview with Kyriakos Mitsotakis.

 

if anyone gets a chance to listen to these two interviews...it is clear that Syriza are not fit to govern.....NEVER will be..professional radical agitators...

 

Mitsotakis has ideas, a clear vision...a modern Western statesman....

 

enough of the no tie, cheap leather jackets.......this is not a 1980 College debating class...this is meant to be a modern European country..

 

Emphasis in bold is mine.  No chance.  Let me rephrase that, zero chance.  Hate is hate unfortunately.  The only fix is time ... meaning older generation dying off and hopefully the newer generation being not so indoctrinated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SYRIZA are blocking the PAOK new stadium/training fields project within seconds of the 'idea' being announced..   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:

 

http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/podosfairo/oxi-apo-suriza-thessalonikis-gia-gipedo-tou-paok-sto-prwin-stratopedo-karatasou/3150911

 

http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/podosfairo/apadisi-tou-paok-se-suriza-i-imimatheia-odigei-se-autogkol/3150933

 

 

 

I would like to do the introductions. PAOK/Salonika - I would like to introduce you to Syriza, the party that won easily in the North. (Athens and Syriza have already been introduced!) I think the Che Guevera banners may be wearing a little thin these days..

 

 

then people wonder why we don't create jobs???

 

people are calling for a 'left revolution'?????

 

too many greeks need to face the real world...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the new generation are worse...

 

Depends what you're talking about.  I would agree they are worse than the older generation in many ways, but I don't see the hatred that was a part of the old generation, at least not to the same degree.  But alas, I am generalizing on a massive scale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Similar Content

    • By athinaios
      I don't see a topic devoted to this election, which takes place today... actually the first polling places are just opening now.
      So, what do you think of the result--which if polls are correct--a new government (or a winning party) will emerge soon after voting ends later tonight.
      As an ex-pat, I can't vote tomorrow since I'm not traveling to Greece and to the edge (near Galatsi and Perisso) of the city of Athens to cast a ballot. I confess that it wouldn't be an easy vote. I've been reading Nikos Dimou [or if you prefer, link in English] since I was a teenager, many decades ago. I also had the pleasure to exchange many thoughts, over a long time, with him and a bunch of other interesting people over a decade ago.
      Anyway, this is what he wrote in the last few days about the elections:
      http://doncat.blogspot.com/2019/06/blog-post_13.html#links
      http://doncat.blogspot.com/2019/07/blog-post.html#links
       
    • By Lazarus
      A record number of Democrats are lining up and declaring themselves as Democratic candidates for the 2020 Presidential Elections in the USA.
      Pete Buttigieg caught my eye the other day in a town hall meeting televised on CNN. I thought he was a well spoken young man, with ideas and values that I agreed with. He needs 65, 000 donors to be invited to the Democrats debate. I would like to see him there, so I donated to his campaign.
         
    • By Blackhawk
      Since the old Macedonia topic has disappeared I started this topic to continue the discussion on the subject.
       
       
    • By Lazarus
      This is from BBC:
      Vegan protests: 'Un-Australian' activists arrested, PM Morrison says
      Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has criticised animal rights activists as "shameful and un-Australian" after dozens were arrested in nationwide protests.
      While - I have to admit - I'm note sure where PM Scott Morrison stands on issues, It looks to me like taking out a page from the Orange Orangutan's (Donald Trump) book. Divide the country in an effort to conquer. Pitch one group of people against another and start creating a condition that is hostile to people sharing values. Probably now is a good time to break up labor unions also?
      It seems that everywhere one turns, it's a right wing full frontal attack to the voice of the people.
    • By Bashibozuk
      Trump is not the problem; the DNC (i.e. the Democratic National Committee) is.
      When Carter (screwed by OPEC, unpopular thanks to OPEC, and sabotaged by his own party) was defeated in 1978, the Democratic National Committee decided that the plebe that voted Democratic could not be trusted to choose electable candidates. In the future the DNC would choose its own super-delegates who would enable the choice of good candidates.
      In 2016 those who read newspapers read that:
      The super-delegates were 15% of the total. Therefore, if the elected delegates were Sanders 49% and Clinton 36% of the total, Mrs Clinton would have been the Democratic candidate.
      At the New Hampshire’s primary Sanders received 60.4% of the poll vote and Mrs Clinton 38%, of the poll vote. Sanders had 15 voted delegates; Mrs Clinton had 9 elected delegates and 6 superdelegates. Is that possible that the the D in DNC stands for Double-dealing?
      On October 30, 2016, the DNC interim chair Donna Brazile was fired from her position as a political commentator at CNN over e-mail leaks suggesting she had improperly supplied Hillary Clinton’s campaign with advance knowledge of debate-questions.
      Let us move beyond the lady Macbeth aspects of the DNC. How idiotic must one be in order to manage to lose an election against a pathetic bimbo? This demands great talent. Examples:
      α) Trump brags that he will bring the factories back to the USA; the DP claims that the new factories will use robots and the unemployed will remain unemployed.
      β) The DP is all for clean energy. What about the coal-miners in WV? Under the DP plan they will live longer because of cancer avoidance. Moreover, since they will have less money, their life-span will feel even longer.
      γ) In the US the members of every group live, on the average, longer than the previous generation. With one exception; low-class whites. To the best of my limited knowledge, the DP has no plan for them.
      My impression is that Trump is not the problem. The doctor Frankenstein that created him is.
       
    • Guest PastMember
      By Guest PastMember
      Looks like the Turkish Navy entered the Andros sea area illegally and used the area as a firing range. 
       
      Nothing like booking a holiday in greece to see muslim military vessels firing guns right in front of your beach.  :la:
       
      Anyone who buys a holiday home anywhere in the Aegean needs balls of steel.. no wonder everyone buys in Spain and France.
       

       
      http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/06/11/pedio-volhs-androu_n_7559394.html
    • By athinaios
      Friends,
      It's been a week since the US general election, and a new page in American politics has started. Let's put the other thread to rest, because it escalated into personal attacks, so let's respectfully discuss the new president's tenure and related matters here. 
      Let's remind ourselves that the point of this forum is to welcome a diversity of people and ideas, and to have a good time, even when we disagree with others; and, it'll be fun, because we'll be having a civilized discussion, right?...
      So, president-elect Trump....  We'll be watching but who can say what he'll actually do? How do you judge his first moves and statements?
       
    • By athinaios
      I think one of the foundations of a modern, enlightened, and successful society is the educational system. Unfortunately, this is one of the many institutions that has been in crisis. Even the various governments don't know what to make of it other than proceed with big reforms only to be undone by the next government.
      What are your thoughts?
      I will write more, but I'm sure you have lots to say about this topic, so fire on....
    • By gyros
      Well we can post in here if Greece will be using Euros, bitcoin, Rubles, or Feta as the currency next month.
    • By Koro
      Greece appears to be improving relations with Russia. What are your guys thoughts on this?
       
      I think this has its positives, but it also could have negative implications. Personally its anyone but the Germans at the moment. Perhaps Greece's fear of pissing off USA/NATO could stop this from developing.
  • Popular Topics Now

  • Tell a friend

    Love Phantis Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...