Illegal Immigration In Greece (and In Europe)

[athinaios]

Ah, we have a true betting man.... :)     The odds? I'd say 99-1 the EU will disappear!

You know the Austro-Hungarians started WW1?  And their fellow allies the Germans sent Lenin to Russia with a train full of gold....  So, they're also responsible for communism too.

[RED SHERIFF]

he sounds like another eastern European nut job..

but I seriously doubt he would be dreaming of an austro - Hungarian style empire ?

[js1000]

https://www.rt.com/news/367235-greece-refugee-camp-fire/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

Refugees set Greek migrant camp on fire, loot nearby stores

[gk2033]

1 hour ago, OlympicHellas said:

You're comparing Australia with a failed state ruled by Anti-Greeks

hes probably just saying enough already just sink the ships these people are causing problems and are demanding things that the greek people don't even have for themselves. kindness only goes so far until the breakingpoint occurs and then its the reverse.  I believe Greece is almost there, once again "I". sweeden has past that point and is now anti economic migrants. and lets be real here same these are economic migrants, way way wayyyyyy the majority.

[Bananas]

5 hours ago, ThrylosG7 said:

lol - The policy works though - its worth a crack at least ...

I was initially appalled by this, but I've since changed my mind.

I was discussing this with a friend who was surprised I agreed with the hard-core Abbott "stop the boats" mantra.

I said to him that in hindsight, if Labor had been more "hard-core" less people would've drowned.  Abbott's position meant that people would stop attempting the dangerous journey, which means less people drowning.  Also, the fact that people smugglers weren't profiting from people's misery is just an added bonus.

[Bananas]

18 hours ago, ThrylosG7 said:

I'll make a neo nazi fascist of you one day bananas dont worry...lol

Don't say that.  I can't afford to change my wardrobe.

[nasl]

i have no answers , but i feel very bad for people in greece who are having their quality of life affected by this.

[RED SHERIFF]

On 20/11/2016 at 2:46 AM, ThrylosG7 said:

100% Tantra - in that period - unless your working in an office or in some white collar job- you could usually negotiate either to be on the books ie get taxed - or get cash. It was usually the wogs that did this ( european immigrants to everyone else lol ) but some Aussies did too. It was mostly in construction , retail , transport , cleaning - basically work where there was not too many levels of management and especially as long as there was no payroll. Mostly small business.

Heck - i used to work in a Music store selling CD's cassettes , records, I was getting cash there - I worked as a DJ on Friday and Saturday Nights..sometimes sunday afternoon ( Greek christenings) - and was collecting unemployment benefits off the govt as it was all cash work.lol 

Some employers would put you on 50-50 so you work 40 hours but on the books it only says 15 -20 - that way taxman doesnt get suspicious about his business..you dont get taxed hardly anything - and payroll tax is much cheaper also.

A lot of restaurants, coffee shops - basically food retail with owner operators still do this if you ask. However cash jobs are mostly gone

Sounds like you have gone to the Greek school of taxation...

A job for you on Tsipras ministry...

 

[RED SHERIFF]

very true....

 

[Bananas]

On 11/20/2016 at 1:46 AM, ThrylosG7 said:

100% Tantra - in that period - unless your working in an office or in some white collar job- you could usually negotiate either to be on the books ie get taxed - or get cash. It was usually the wogs that did this ( european immigrants to everyone else lol ) but some Aussies did too. It was mostly in construction , retail , transport , cleaning - basically work where there was not too many levels of management and especially as long as there was no payroll. Mostly small business.

Heck - i used to work in a Music store selling CD's cassettes , records, I was getting cash there - I worked as a DJ on Friday and Saturday Nights..sometimes sunday afternoon ( Greek christenings) - and was collecting unemployment benefits off the govt as it was all cash work.lol 

Some employers would put you on 50-50 so you work 40 hours but on the books it only says 15 -20 - that way taxman doesnt get suspicious about his business..you dont get taxed hardly anything - and payroll tax is much cheaper also.

A lot of restaurants, coffee shops - basically food retail with owner operators still do this if you ask. However cash jobs are mostly gone

Same here.  Worked at a factory in the 90's for about a year and the place was owned by 2 Greeks, with ~30 employees.  The whole place, I mean the WHOLE place was on black money, lol.

[Hudson]

1 hour ago, Bananas said:

Same here.  Worked at a factory in the 90's for about a year and the place was owned by 2 Greeks, with ~30 employees.  The whole place, I mean the WHOLE place was on black money, lol.

Where, in Greece?

Many Greeks in the US have businesses that operate mostly in cash. They also employ undocumented laborers. They declare the minimum income that justifies keeping a business open. But many of them become rich and then they don't need no frikin bank loan; they just buy the house or car or whatever in cash!

[Hudson]

I don't know how they do it. I have a relative who is in the food business and bought a huge property and paid cash, same with the cars he buys.

If I were selling my house and someone paid me cash, I'd take it, and it'd be like any other transaction. I could be a little ..flexible as to what I'd say I sold it for but still if I were selling I'd take cash and bank it. In essence, it's cash anyway, because if you got a loan to buy my house, your bank would pay me in cash. Yes, it's reported and taxable (on the profit I'd make).

But in the US you are not taxed by the feds like in Greece, where, if I'm correct, you have a house or a fancy car and thus these are considered evidence of income. The feds tax you on reported income, either by you or your employer or any other source of income, like investments. Yes, tax evasion is a crime, but rarely they go after small fish, and if you're careful you slide under the radar.

The state and local tax authorities don't give a damn where you got the money to buy your house or how much you make. They charge you local property taxes (the feds don't tax you on such) based on size & value of property. If you have a business, you collect sales tax and then you pay tax on the profits. Same with the feds, they tax you on the profits.

[Bananas]

4 hours ago, Hudson said:

Where, in Greece?

Many Greeks in the US have businesses that operate mostly in cash. They also employ undocumented laborers. They declare the minimum income that justifies keeping a business open. But many of them become rich and then they don't need no frikin bank loan; they just buy the house or car or whatever in cash!

This was in Australia.

The ATO (Australian Taxation Office) has been vigorously closing loop holes and chasing offenders from about the year 2000 onwards, due in large part to computing power becoming cheaper and data cross checking more attainable.  These days the ATO generally target a sector or number of sectors each year to "fine tune" their data as well as keep people on their toes.

They have certain criteria that need to be within a margin e.g. someone who is computer programmer claims $10,000 in deductions but the average deduction for computer programmers is between $1000-$2000.  You will be flagged and investigated.  This is all automated now and it's not like the in the past where cross checking had to be done manually.  So, it wasn't as the man power wasn't there.

And the ATO doesn't just go after workers.  There was a case about 10 years of some businessman who owned a vast quantity of farmland in Western Australia as well as having stakes in many smaller operations.  The ATO did some digging, took him to the Supreme Court and lost, appealed to the Federal Court and lost, appealed to the Full Bench of the Federal Court (which I believe is 3 judges but not sure) and lost.  Then, after petitioned the Australian Government to amend/modify the law (and make it retrospective) that the businessman's lawyers were using to to avoid paying the tax.  The ATO got a retrial after the law was changed and got him for 75 million.

Another instance from about a year ago is where they did some digging only for people with net worth of approximately 25 million  (can't remember the exact number) or more in assets.  The compiled a list of a few thousand people and basically the majority of them had made their money in the 50's and 60's and moved the money off shore years ago.  The ATO basically said based on our estimates of what you own, you should have paid "x", give us half and we won't probe you into oblivion and make your life a living hell.  Approximately 85% of people paid.

There will always be the very rich who can play the game and win, but overall the ATO is not someone you want hounding you these days.

Regarding the place I used to work at in the early 90's, there is no way you could do that these days.  You can always hide a portion (maybe 10% or 20%) but not like what they were doing which was virtually 100%.

Oh I forgot to mention the time immigration came in a van.  6 men in trench coats, closed the front gate to the carpark, put a chain around it, closed the chain with a big pad lock.  Every one in the place hiding in boxes, out the back behind pallets or in the tall grass, conveyor belts overloading ha ha, because they thought it was the ATO instead.

[Bananas]

8 minutes ago, ThrylosG7 said:

isnt there a law though - in regards to banking or withdrawing certain amounts of cash ?? In Australia any deposits or withdrawals of 10,000 or more are logged and reported by the banks to the Tax office 

Yes, it's automated between financial institutions and the ATO.  I've heard some people say "just wire $9,999 instead" but I don't think that would work.  I'm sure they have direct reporting like in this instance, as well as probably monthly/yearly reporting where if the total amount exceeds "x" the ATO will also get a notification.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Bananas

[Hudson]

Yes, the banks record and report transactions more that $10,000, but it's not considered evidence of income or anything else. You can transfer or deposit $100,0000 and nobody comes after you as long as you don't do it frequently. There's an algorithm the feds use to figure out who's doing money laundering but that's for lots of transactions and for lots more money. Now, if you're ever caught then such records can be used against you.

But, I'm telling you, I know Greeks that deal in cash mostly, and they keep the cash in safes or in bank deposit boxes. There are lots of ways to spend cash and buy stuff, like a cars, jewelry, property, etc. But the US is a huge economy. Many years ago, I read a study that claimed the un-taxed economy was about 7% of GDP; around the same time it was estimated that it was 30% in Greece.

[athinaios]

On 11/25/2016 at 0:06 AM, tantra129 said:

Everyone i know in the restaurant indistry has lost their shirts and are now working 70 hour work weeks for peanuts. 

... the chicken souvlaki platter that used to cost 9.95$ is going for 16.95$ Today. ::::  

The restaurant business outside the fancy places relies on cheap labor. Some of this labor is undocumented in the US. The kitchen, delivery, cleaners, bus boys, etc, work long hours for little pay and many off the books.

In the US there the refugees aren't a big number compared to other immigrants. The key, with people who have different backgrounds that clash with US society, is to integrate and educate them. When there's a ghetto, bad things happen. If someone thinks they can advance and have a decent life, they develop patriotism in the country in which they have stakes.

Europe has done many mistakes with its immigration policies. It should not accept anything it cannot absorb. Many of the immigrants end up in ghettos, disillusioned, and they seek something to make them feel important, even if this is hooliganism or worse.

Merkel made a huge mistake by saying Germany would accept hundreds of thousands of refugees. If Germany needs new workers, it could have done this quietly, more orderly, and accept people who'd get a job, not end up in ghettos.

Immigration is a big topic of discussion (usually not a good discussion, because most people get emotional over this issue and argue like maniacs), but it's always been a fact of life in every nation. Good immigration (legal or illegal) could be a positive factor on both ends--the country and the imms.

 

[Bananas]

Where are these immigrants that Merkel wants to deport from ?  Where exactly does Germany drop these immigrants off ?

[athinaios]

On 11/28/2016 at 0:11 AM, tantra129 said:

What about 15$ min wage?

Oh, yeah, as this would happen under the new US admin...   States have raised the min. wage about the fed level.

I don't know what the number should be, but that number by itself doesn't exist in a vacuum. Depends what you can buy with your money. Big cities are very expensive to live in, and their suburbs becoming more expensive. Where are they going to get the labor for the service industry if they pay min. wage?

Anyway, a $10/hour min. wage may be OK, in certain areas, if you have free health care, cheap public transportation, education, and other social services.

In the US, since the 1970s, middle class wages haven't risen (adjusted for inflation). Many consumer goods have become cheaper (appliances, clothing, food, etc) so wage earners have seen an improvement in their lives. However, 3 items have far outpaced wages: cost of education, housing, and health care.

[athinaios]

On 11/28/2016 at 0:40 AM, aek66 said:

that's nice and i would agree with you...yet i wonder what kind of mistake france made when muslim immigrants from algeria/tunisia work for public transportation (very good job in france) and then quit and hang out at the local mosque because they believe it immoral to touch the hand of a woman paying her fare??

Well, I don't know about the cases you mention. Some people never change. The conservative Jews (Hasidim and others) have identical beliefs of the hard-core Muslims. They live by the hundreds of thousands in NYC and elsewhere in communities that often clash (not violently though) with the gentiles. What is it that they don't resort to jihad?

But, studies show that give people hope and a decent living conditions they develop a stake in the system. What is it that the US has done so well in integrating imms? 

Now there are sociopaths and closed-minded people who never going to change.

[Bananas]

6 hours ago, tantra129 said:

to me the whole business model of the american dream requires cheap labour .. 15$ min wage would create an inflationary spiral 

The word "inflation" is a bit like the word "Byzantine" in that it has negative connotations.  There are times when you actually want a higher rate of inflation and this is one of those times.  The world in general is neck deep in loans and a high but reasonable rate of inflation would make the relative value of these loans much more affordable.  It would also put real spending power into the general population and spurn business growth.  But like anything it has to be done right.  If this "extra" money just feeds back into the 0.1% then it's of no use.  If it actually gets distributed fairly evenly across the economy it would be very beneficial for the economy as a whole.

[athinaios]

It's a myth that giving more money to the top 1% is helpful to economic growth--the type of growth that lifts the poor and the middle class. The robber barons in the US, the super rich or the 19th and early 20th c. didn't have to pay any income taxes. Sure they employed lots of people, but at low wages and with no labor rights. It's the middle class that spends and supports a good economy. Adam Smith argued that the wealth of a country isn't in its gold reserves but in the greater affluence of the middle class.

So, what is the new DJT administration going to do? Give tax breaks to people and companies that don't need them. For the life of me, I can't see how anyone still argues for trickle-down economics.

[Bananas]

4 minutes ago, tantra129 said:

Of course we want some inflation. But a 15$ min wage will create a spiral. Rates go up. Their debt goes up. Back to square 1. 

That's the whole point.  The Fed needs to be on board.  If you want to "manufacture" inflation deliberately they wouldn't put rates up or the Fed would make sure the rate was less than the growth in inflation.  If the Fed isn't on board, and is just reactive, yes, it's pointless.