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14 hours ago, Athens4 said:

The league will propose a play off system for the league going forward as of next year. This time it will include the the team that finishes 1st in the league. If I were Savvidis, I would reject this at all costs.

I hope Ivan does reject it. From what I read PAOK wants to keep Superleague with 16 teams with a current format. The problem is the other teams will probably vote for the playoff format since the teams will be 14 starting next season.

About two weeks ago AEK proposed a system, where the 14 teams competition would be played in 3 stages. Stage one would be 13 rounds of games. At the end on first stage, the teams in the standings finishing in the odd positions would play six rounds. Same thing would happen with the teams finishing in even positions. After the second stage the team would play another set of 13 rounds of games (the return legs of stage one). I am no making this up. It was an actual proposal during the last Superleague general meeting. 

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Νομίζω για σήμερα όλη η Ελλάδα συμφωνεί ότι την καλύτερη μπάλα την παίζει ο "Ο Α.Ρ.Η.Σ.". Κέρδισαν 0-3 τον Αστέρα Τρίπολης. Που είστε σκουλήκια; Ελάτε κι εσείς να μας πείτε ότι αν δεν ήταν ο χαλίφης ο Τσετσένος και το δοσμένο του Τσίπρα θα το σηκώνατε εσείς. Μην κρύβεστε!

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1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

I hope Ivan does reject it. From what I read PAOK wants to keep Superleague with 16 teams with a current format. The problem is the other teams will probably vote for the playoff format since the teams will be 14 starting next season.

About two weeks ago AEK proposed a system, where the 14 teams competition would be played in 3 stages. Stage would one would be 13 rounds of games. At the end on first stage, the teams in the standings finishing in the odd positions would play six rounds. Same thing would happen with the teams finishing in even positions. After the second stage the team would play another set of 13 rounds of games (the return legs of stage one). I am no making this up. It was an actual proposal during the last Superleague general meeting. 

Should any of these stupid ideas come into effect then I cannot see the point in watching the Greek league anymore. Just have 16 teams with 30 games in total. It isn't rocket science.

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I said IF play offs are reintroduced! Besides I will continue to watch PAOK in Europe.

Come on man (should be read in an American accent), do you really think I'm going to watch us come first only to then have to play stupid play offs and potentially lose it to an Athenian team because of point deductions or poor officiating? The past two seasons have been the beginning of a huge change in Greek football. Why on Earth would we want to take a giant leap backwards?

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12 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:

Olympiakos will reject this 100 percent....how are going to feel in 2 years time,   when Olympiakos will go on a 10 years run?   We all know this will be short lived,  because they will eventually take over again.  Unless of course PAOK starts making the CL regularly....but that's a long shot to happen.   Not impossible but highly unlikely.

Olympiakos would reject this, because that would stop them from ever winning the league again. They would have to battle it out between teams that actually know how to play football. Olympiakos usually won the league in the past because they were the only team not too loose against smaller teams.

I think the idea of the playoff is alright, but AEKS idea is tragic. Odds teams playing against each other and even teams playings against each other between rounds is just stupid. It is entirely possible that one group will end up having exceptionally hard matches while the other has a walk in the park.

It would be better, simpler and more interesting to have 10 teams play each other 4 times or just have 14 teams playing against each other 3 times, a 3rd time on neutral ground, forgoing the need of playoffs. 

Edited by Nilaul
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6 hours ago, Athens4 said:

Should any of these stupid ideas come into effect then I cannot see the point in watching the Greek league anymore. Just have 16 teams with 30 games in total. It isn't rocket science.

Don't think that is a solution either, 16 teams, where only 5  are somewhat competitive and the rest is pure carbage filler content, which the only point of existence is too loose against the top 5. No one wants to watch these matches, they don't bring anything to the table and they ain't an attractive product, which means less money for the league.
 

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Greece is a country of 10-11 million people where only a handful of teams (PAOK, Aris, AEK, PAO, Oly, maybe OFH/Pan/Iraklis) have any real fanbase. I think 14 teams with 26 games and no play off system is the sweet spot. I wouldnt be opposed to something like 15-16 teams either though. 

I think the Greek league is better domestically today than it was 4-5 years ago because it is just much more competitive. But one could also make the argument that this is largely because Oly has severely weakened in recent years. 

Hopefully Greek football is going in the right direction though. New stadia, unbiased referring, and the big teams not being in financial trouble (other than PAO but they are improving on that end) are all positives 

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In an ideal world, the 14 teams with no play off would be great. Unfortunately, financial considerations will rule. The networks want to run more ads, and they know the most expensive ads would play during derbies. It will take a big effort to eliminate those (an effort well worth taking IMO).

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Had the Greek league not just been about Olympiakos and Panathinaikos for the past 20 years (you obviously weren't as bad as them) then we would not be in this situation in the first place. Look at all the serious leagues around Europe - Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A. Do you see them introducing a 10 team league with farcical play offs? Only Mickey Mouse leagues such as those in Belgium, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Serbia have these things in place.

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Has anyone in the league even contemplated the idea of each team playing each other 4 times?
Or were they all too interested in trying to figure out how to shove in playoffs and other weird ideas?

Another future issue, you somehow got to tell people to dump the laptops, pay for nova and watch the game. Rather than fight the trend, maybe its wiser to embrace it, and offer free streaming to digital devices worldwide, and just cash on the ad revenue, rather than the subscriptions that no one seemingly wants to buy,

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8 hours ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:

They have....but some feel that the fans would not go for it,   not the European way.   I guess us North Americans are stupid....we have baseball raking in 10 billion dollars a year,  each team playing each other 9 times not including the playoffs.   Football only has 16 games,  but we can't count that,   because the injuries take a toll in football so naturally can't have more games fitted in.   Basketball each team plays multiple times 82 game schedule,   same with hockey and together they pull in billions of dollars.   How about Greek basketball....they always welcome more featured games between the big clubs.  I guess they would rather sit around doing nothing in Greek soccer,  and watching other leagues around Europe move miles ahead,   while the Greek league becomes another Bulgaria....and once that happens,   it will never rise again.  Have you been reading the papers....apparently PAO will be back in the CL within 3 years!!!  LMFAO.   It's getting comical.

 

Its very comical because even If some rich billionaire gets Panathinaikos and takes over he can't just pour money into Panathinaikos for same reason Savidis couldn't just in one year pour 100+ million into his team, financial fair play (which Paok already had a brush with the past). Yeah we got that crap to worry about too.

So if this league goes into the dumpster it's going to be really hard to bring it back up again, but I suppose at that point it really won't matter if you get kicked out of the Europeans cup for FP.

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I don't like the idea of having 10 teams in a league.  But I'd be willing to try it out as an experiment and see what comes of it.  Minus play-offs of course.  Even 12 I suppose.

But it still feels wrong to me.  Heck, if it was up to me, I'd make @PAOTHEGREAT life a complete nightmare and have 20 teams, like real leagues do.

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This would definitely be very watchable:

aquiFD0.png

Look at the teams playing in this hypothetical 10 team league, we got rid of nearly all the junk teams.
Those matches are very watchable and for the first time since forever we might be seeing sold out stadiums on regular bases. Everyone wins, the TV program gets more revenue from ads and the teams get more money from their stadiums.

I've kept the relegations spot to 2, and +1 with playoff with third place from Superleague 2, in order to keep things interesting in the lower end. Definitely a nerve-racking league, no team would want to have a bad season, look how close Panathinaikos is to the relegation zone.

I suppose this could also work with 11 teams, as it would create a 40 game league, as opposed to 36 league game with 10 teams (as a point of comparison the italian league is 38 games) 12 teams might be too much, too many games and too many junk teams. For each team that enters this league, it's an extra 4 match days.

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14 minutes ago, PAOTHEGREAT said:

Yes that would work....However the relegation zone could pose issues at the beginning.  I can't see 2 teams dropping simply because....the bottom end teams would be almost guaranteed 5 million more in TV revenues alone totaling 7.  That said the team dropping would be far superior to the second division.  And the team promoted would need to enter debt free,  and dropping big money to compete at the top flight.   I would drop 1 for a few years,   and let things settle...see where we stand.   All I know is that the level of play would increase big time.   

You may be right that  dropping too many teams might slow down the growth the level of playing field. Perhaps a better idea would be one team relegating then with no say, then another team playing it out with the 2nd team. Either way, I  think at least we would need to somehow give them a chance because legitimately they might be a better team, then whatever junk ended up being 9th (especially at the beginning).

I suppose that eventually, the 2nd league would also grow some wealth as well, as there would be quite a few teams that will rake a few million from the first league and drop down because they were not good enough, thus slowly increasing the level of playing field bellow too, if they also manage to eliminate the rampant match-fixing that takes place there. 

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Random talking about TV rights, you know that the polish league secured themselves a deal where each season direct inflows to clubs will increase by at least 16 million. This league is really losing it in terms of tv rights.

We are talking about a league where stuff like this happens:
https://streamable.com/itjzm

 

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In absolute terms, Poland has a larger market than Greece. Both in terms of nominal GDP and purchasing power, Poland is ahead - even when you account for their population, which is 3.5 times that of Greece (I'm referring to a direct per capita comparison of economic capacity). Elladastan is way, way behind - even if the league was well run and competitive, the teams would not be able to command a comparable allocation of TV monies.

I don't see any reason to drop to ten teams. We end up playing more games, and oversaturate the market with derbies. I think 16 teams with no playoff is the sweet spot. 30 games + a reasonable length for summer break - wam, bam, thank you ma'am.

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56 minutes ago, pash said:

In absolute terms, Poland has a larger market than Greece. Both in terms of nominal GDP and purchasing power, Poland is ahead - even when you account for their population, which is 3.5 times that of Greece (I'm referring to a direct per capita comparison of economic capacity). Elladastan is way, way behind - even if the league was well run and competitive, the teams would not be able to command a comparable allocation of TV monies.

I don't see any reason to drop to ten teams. We end up playing more games, and oversaturate the market with derbies. I think 16 teams with no playoff is the sweet spot. 30 games + a reasonable length for summer break - wam, bam, thank you ma'am.

OK so since we're taking into account population then in an ideal world we should at least be able to pull of a Portugal, which in 2017, was about 125 mill, now it seems to way more maybe in even in 300+. Can't find the exact numbers as it seems that teams sell off their own rights.

The Belgium league makes double of what the Greek superleague made in 2017. The Switzerland league rights are 40 million, which is comparable to what Nova was giving Greece in 2017 (which was 50mil apparently, could be complete bullshit though), and I bet since the league is smaller the teams are probably making more money off the rights then what Greek teams were making back then.

 

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44 minutes ago, Soprano76 said:

Having a playoff is absolutely rubbish. Are there any European leagues that have an odd number of teams? I think 10 is way too little but would be okay with anywhere from 12-14 teams. 

If you are going to have a playoff then everyone should participate. Wouldn't mind having Olympiakos join in the playoffs a few years ago when everyone else was playing playoffs. They definitely didn't deserve the titles but yeah playoffs do kinda suck.

In an odd number teams scenario, one team would have to have a break, every now and then. Not ideal, but it wouldn't be a bad thing either. 12 teams and 44 match days is a lot, 14 teams and  48 match days, dam! That would be overkill. It wouldn't work with 14 teams for sure.
You'd want to keep the number of teams lower so that the league would have to be played out between the top teams and not be dependent on the results against the "filler content" teams. Take Olympiakos now, they haven't won a single game against the bigger teams, and yet there really high because they have been somewhat steady against the "filler content" teams. I reckon that in the 10 league team Olympiakos would have been even lower.

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