greece The Greek Economy Thread

[athinaios]

The least I could do is pack my bags and family up, and visit Greece spending my money, and giving much needed support.

I'll promote the idea to the rest of my family and see if we can have a reunion there....If we all did this....It will not take a long time for Greece to get up and going!!!

  :unsure: :1eye: :blink: [in red]

I know you care and you mean well, but this is the kind of magical thinking that when widespread--and it seems that it has infected many in the governing party--is actually harmful. It's harmful because instead of identifying the appropriate medicine, it relies on voodoo. Of course, before you cure the disease you have to correctly identify it first, which I'm not sure many (incl. the gov) do, or want to.

[athinaios]

Are you making the argument that Greece is an irresponsible child? Then why should anyone take it seriously?

 

So, since you do put it that way, it's no brainer why the Europeans & IMF say to Greece today: you can't be trusted. If you still want our money, you have to eat this, jump through that hoop, we come into your house and inspect every closet, drawer, and pocket. And, you have to be put on a leash so you don't go wandering. 

 

What??!!! You don't like these terms?  Then adieu, arrivederchi, hasta la vista, goodbye and good night.. You don't have to come to us for another bailout since not only you have been irresponsible but you lied, yes LIED, in your application, and you FORGED documents while we were dealing with you as an adult! 

 

We won't talk about the free money we gave you to become a proper member of our club in the 1980s....

 

<_<

 

 

PS> To harp on my previous question. So Fyrom and Turkey are telling you that it was your fault for lending them your money............ oyvey

[Bananas]

The EU as an economic entity is run essentially by people who still think of economics in terms of the gold standard.  To them, it feels right. But, there's a reason why the gold standard was dropped.  It was inflexible, and so is the Euro.

 

Once a country gets into trouble (regardless of how they got into trouble and who is at fault), the only solution is deflation.  And, as the world has gotten to see over the last 5 years or so in Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece, deflation is a nasty beast that feeds on itself.  It feels right to balance the budget by say slashing government employees or wages, but the flow on creates more deflation.  Greece is a bad economic manager but the EU is probably just as bad.  The problem with the EU is that the Germans have the most influence, and they have such a phobia of inflation that it's ridiculous.

 

Seriously, they are sitting there wondering why Greece hasn't recovered after 5 years of their "remedies".  Fools.

 

As heavy as the pain will be for Greece, having your own currency is the only solution.

[gyros]

If reducing the average pension to 800 euros is so painful, how painful will it be if you switch to drachma and have the buying power of 200 euro? Is Greece better with 13% unemployment and 500 euro salaries with the new currency? If the youth don't want to work for 650 a month, how would they feel about 500 a month in drachmas?

[Akritis_1944]

^^^^^^

*ding**ding**ding*

Captain Obvious over here! This guy!

[js1000]

Are you making the argument that Greece is an irresponsible child? Then why should anyone take it seriously?

 

So, since you do put it that way, it's no brainer why the Europeans & IMF say to Greece today: you can't be trusted. If you still want our money, you have to eat this, jump through that hoop, we come into your house and inspect every closet, drawer, and pocket. And, you have to be put on a leash so you don't go wandering. 

 

What??!!! You don't like these terms?  Then adieu, arrivederchi, hasta la vista, goodbye and good night.. You don't have to come to us for another bailout since not only you have been irresponsible but you lied, yes LIED, in your application, and you FORGED documents while we were dealing with you as an adult! 

 

We won't talk about the free money we gave you to become a proper member of our club in the 1980s....

 

<_<

 

 

PS> To harp on my previous question. So Fyrom and Turkey are telling you that it was your fault for lending them your money............ oyvey

Really? so why don't they dump us then? The last thing they want is Greece to leave, they want to get their grubby hands on all of Greece's profitable assets, which results in decreased revenues for Greece followed by a demand to cut public spending.

BTW who forged those documents on behalf of Greece, got paid a massive consultancy fee and then went away and bet on Greece failing, you forgot to mention that part. 

And thanks for the 'free' money, with strings attached. 

 

Greece did not fail on its own. It was made to fail.

the banks wrecked the Greek government, and then deliberately pushed it into unsustainable debt while revenue-generating public assets were sold off to oligarchs and international corporations.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/07/06/greece-the-one-biggest-lie-you-are-being-told-by-the-media/

[gyros]

Gyros I think you're missing the point of all this....It's about economic growth, together with reforms....reforms that continue to shrink the economy doesn't make economic sense!!!

What's a better approach....I would rather start with 0 with a economic plan that will stop the shrinking economy, and in ten years reach 400....Or start at 400 with harsh austerity measures that continue to shrink the economy, and leave Greece at 0 in ten years.

We can make the argument that Greece is at 0 ATM....So with the drachma, can we not say, the only way is up now?

We aren't at zero. Going from 800 Eu pension to the buying power of 200 Eu is a huge hit. Then you guys keep mentioning growth but I see no specifics. Growth from what industry? Tourism is at record levels so that won't help much. Greece hasn't had industry since the 70's. What is going to grow? I'm curious. Slogans and blind patriotism doesn't put food on the table.

[js1000]

^^^ you gotta love Nigel Farage, he's really nailed it in that 3rd video.

[gyros]

What recovery? You can't be serious with all the suffering going on right now. You are starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister.

[JimAdams]

Super speech:

Great speech. However, I don't think Tsipras is interested in keeping Greece part of the EU. I think he is more interested in hanging onto power in Greece and install a Chavez/Meduro style government for Greece.

Nothing would maker me happier than to be proven wrong.

[J1078]

Wow thanks for that video Reaper.

[js1000]

A credible reform package, translated as, further rot the peoples standard of living, privatise everything for the benefit of my corporate chums and continue to destroy public services and then 'we gonna find a solution' 

Reforms are pointless while Greece remain in the EU/EZ everyone knows the debt is impossible to repay regardless of reforms. 

 

Basically do as we say, like the previous spineless Greek administrations have and like the PIGS countries.  Not a mention of the banking racket, the problems are all about Greek public sector, the banks are blameless. 

[JimAdams]

I am not flip flopping anything and I stand by my position.....

..I skip your posts.

 

 

My apologies. I did not mean to make you cry.

And here I am, believing you when you said "I skip your posts"

When's your nameday? I'll buy you a pair of flip-flops

 

 

 

what you're saying (if i'm not mistaken) is a competent right wing Greek government would have done everything the troika demanded,

Never said anything about any political affiliation. Just said "had Greece completed the reforms..." I'm not defending right wing or left wing. I'm bashing Greece's politicians and how political leadership and democracy are obsolete terms in Greece. New Democracy did a half-assed job to start reforms in Greece. Antonis Samaras is incompetent. Tsipras is simply Samaras on the opposite side of the isle. Both useless.

Edited July 8, 2015 by JimAdams

[Torontoblue]

If reducing the average pension to 800 euros is so painful, how painful will it be if you switch to drachma and have the buying power of 200 euro? Is Greece better with 13% unemployment and 500 euro salaries with the new currency? If the youth don't want to work for 650 a month, how would they feel about 500 a month in drachmas?

 

Best post on this thread so far!!

[athinaios]

Super speech:

 

 

Well, I wrote his speech... (haha).

 

And, since I'm feeling generous again today, I'm prepared to pay off the entire Greek debt (yeah, I'm that rich :huh?: ).  But, I don't want my money to go to waste, as it most certainly will if Greece continues on the same path of the old ways.

 

So, let's say that Tsipras doesn't have to deal with those demanding lenders he's begging money from any longer. What prevented him from passing legislation to end the privileges, to open up the marketplace (destroy the "syntexnies"), eliminate corruption, bureaucracy, etc...?????!!!.

He could still have negotiated better terms, but why hasn't done the reforms the country needs regardless of the bailout.

 

It doesn't have to be an external demand (from lenders) that Greece does sensible reforms, yet, since the 1980s it hasn't. 

[athinaios]

Tsipras was not ready to be PM.  No experience and no real plans other than rhetoric. Amatuerish when he (the country) couldn't afford to. Syriza is a contradiction in itself, with many groups who disagree about fundamental policies--united in their quest for power, but once there..... :argue:

 

He should have started with reforms already, while negotiating with troika. This is the point of the video above. Tsipras could have a stronger hand, and a public relations advantage if he could say, look in my 5 months in office I've done more sensible reforms that dozens of governments before me!!  Great reforms that will make Greece more competive, with a bigger economy, closer to the standards of the EZ! So, help out here guys....

 

Instead he's been business as usual. Just yesterday they announced that more priests would be hired!  Oh, yeah.... Did you know that the state pays for priests' salaries? :xxx: 

[gyros]

Tsipra will not magically evolve into a ''reformer'' and ''capitalist'' he is an ideologue first and foremost, proficient in rhetotic and slogan politics, he is very good at giving speeches, not so good in his actions

As has been mentioned SYRIZA is made up of many different smaller groups, each more nuttier than the last, Marxists, Trotskyists, Leninists, other types of extreme leftists and communists.

Now i'm hearing the words ''humanitarian aid'' for Greece!!! HUMANITARIAN AID. This is a disgrace

Even if it has only been 5 months, SYRIZA has re-hired public servants, thats it, it has done nothing else, and we're all kidding ourselves thinking SYRIZA is the saviour of Greece.

 

The parliament speaker Zoe Konstantopoulou is batshit crazy.  She would make Fidel Castro look like a reformer.

 

Greece does need humanitarian aid.  If you have cancer, you're out of luck.  No medicine.  How sad is that. This bank closure basically killed the country.  Funny they were on pace for GDP growth this year now of course they are lining up at ATM's to get out $60.  Sad.  

[gyros]

Let me be clear, i dont give a s**t about ND or PASOK, PASOK is the one who in 1981 started the ridiculous Government spending and extremely generous welfare system, which has gotten us where we are today.

I also do not give a s**t about Germany, i despise them, they are a primitive people with no souls. And i know all about what they have done.

But it's about the now? What is going to happen next?

Just say by some miracle the debt is wiped clear, Greece under SYRIZA will just start spending money it doesn't have again, re-hiring public servants, putting pensions up and hiring more people in the public service, and In a short time we will once again be owing billions.

I sense SYRIZA want to get Greece out of the Eurozone, what happens next?

 

Exactly. Nobody cares about ND, Pasok, Golden Dawn, Petro the barber etc... Just calling a spade a spade. Syriza is a bunch of College radicals.  Talking about Germany in the 1940's doesn't take away from Greek incompetence.  They couldn't even balance a roll of quarters. Who would think a country in 2015 would run out paper so they can't print newspapers.  How screwed up is that.

Edited July 9, 2015 by gyros

[gyros]

The worst thing is a lot of "No" voters are feeling buyers remorse right now.  They regret voting no because they are suffering.  No insulin in the pharmacies.  If you have diabetes, good luck.  Watching Greek TV, people are mentally drained right now.  Everyday its "we are close to a deal" then "we don't have a deal" then "we are going to the drachma" etc..  People are going crazy right now with all this uncertainty.  Hopefully that idiot Tsipras can make some kind of a deal and sign something so the banks can open and people can get their insulin and cancer medications and the country can move on.  What a nightmare the last 5 months.

[Greek Style]

Someone needs to put a ******* :xxx:  in that German ***** Merkel. All the Germans can GAGF, disgrace of a country with disgusting people.

 

 

 

 

Note: I edited your post; please refrain from terroristic threats or inappropriate language in this forum. Athinaios

[athinaios]

The referendum was ridiculous. Everybody interpreted it anyway they wanted it. What kind of bs is that? It was a waste of precioius time. Remorse or what, it's not only the Greek governments at fault. You know, public sentiment does play an important role. Responsible citizenship is necessary. OK, what would you do? (people ask me). Well, for starters I wouldn't fall for the empty rhetoric (examples of which we've seen here in this forum*), I wouldn't go and bleet like sheep in meaningless demonstrations and party gatherings. I would demand they talk to me like a responsible adult, and be specific about plans for reforms. I'd vote for the candidates that dared to speak the truth, even it was unpleasant. (no b.s. "there's money for all")

 

I wouldn't watch crappy media nor buy newspaper rags. I'd demand meritocracy not patronage. And, I would behave like a good person with civility, respecting my fellow citizens, care for the environment (not polute, clean after myself, not throw garbage everywhere), wouldn't park my car/bike on the sidewalk, not make unnecessary noise, not cut in line, show up for work on time and be productive (and if I worked at a public office, I'd treat the ..public with respect), etc, etc....

 

 

* we defend Greece; we're proud; we don't sell the country; unity; the lenders are terrorists; etc.  Oh, and so many recipes for how Greece can get out of this mess through ..magical thinking~!

 

___________________________________

 

D. Tusk (Prez Euro Council) and JC Juncker (Prez Euro Commission) said Greece must submit detailed plan by Thu, so the top euro leaders can meet on Sat and decide by Sunday, which is the absolute last day for Greece. It's either in, with a bailout and a plan, or out (Grekexit). The Grekexit plans have been drawn already by European leadership.  "Detailed plan" means specifics, not rhetoric. It's crazy that the Greek gov has not done this already!!!!!  :tdown: :bangin:

And, it's even crazier that Tsipras has not submitted the specific reforms/legislation the country needs anyway. And, it's even craziest that the Euros are ready to give Greece breathing room (which includes emergency liquidity funds for Greek banks, so they can open) but Tsipras delivered a speech (and replied to Guy's speech in the video above) in Euro parliament without being specific. His only defense was that he released Lagard's corruption list. OK, good, but what the f@@@ man, you needed 5 months to do that?.... :xxx:

[js1000]

D. Tusk (Prez Euro Council) and JC Juncker (Prez Euro Commission) said Greece must submit detailed plan by Thu, so the top euro leaders can meet on Sat and decide by Sunday, which is the absolute last day for Greece. It's either in, with a bailout and a plan, or out (Grekexit). The Grekexit plans have been drawn already by European leadership.  "Detailed plan" means specifics, not rhetoric. It's crazy that the Greek gov has not done this already!!!!!  :tdown: :bangin:

And, it's even crazier that Tsipras has not submitted the specific reforms/legislation the country needs anyway. And, it's even craziest that the Euros are ready to give Greece breathing room (which includes emergency liquidity funds for Greek banks, so they can open) but Tsipras delivered a speech (and replied to Guy's speech in the video above) in Euro parliament without being specific. His only defense was that he released Lagard's corruption list. OK, good, but what the f@@@ man, you needed 5 months to do that?.... :xxx:

He should have made plans for leaving the euro/EU submitted them earlier and stuck with them, the fact he hasn't seems to indicate he has no desire to do either, now the 'reforms' demanded by the troika will be implemented in exchange for Greece being in further debt, these reforms will just mean further cuts rotting people's standard of living further, and giving more revenue generating assets Greece has left to creditors. 

The EU have played a blinder, capital controls leaving people with money in their accounts unable to access it which further kills trade, businesses unable to pay their employees.

 

 

The imposition of capital controls delivered the last blow to the public construction projects, leading to many cancellations, even in sites that operated normally until yesterday. The main reason behind the cancellations is that there is no way for the workers to be paid. 

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/07/40000-greek-workers-fired-or-suspended/

 

When you don't have the bottle to go it alone and are reliant on the EU they pretty much got you by the balls. Do as we say or you get more of the same, they smell blood, they sense Tsiparas doesn't have the desire to leave so they'll keep turning the screw until he accepts whatever they want - which is to eventually own everything in Greece. 

[Irlandos]

Well, well!

Now the EU powers that be are openly talking about a 30% haircut!

After Christine Lagarde said it was necessary, after Varoufakis and Tsipras stood up to them, after the Greek people stood up to them in the referendum.

Where are Samaras, Bakoyianni, Evangelos and the

[Irlandos]

Great speech. However, I don't think Tsipras is interested in keeping Greece part of the EU. I think he is more interested in hanging onto power in Greece and install a Chavez/Meduro style government for Greece...

 

[js1000]

 

:nw: