greece The Greek Economy Thread

[JimAdams]

The word I'm getting here is....Greece's 90 percent out....I've said from the beginning Greece will be better off, in the long term. I know America will back us up....And as for standing up....I am already.

Maybe you're afraid, not me Greeks are fighters and this is what's best for our nation....If a deal is made so be it, should not change the Greeks stand against German dictatorship!!!

You're all over the place! Have an opinion, stick with it. Defend it for God's sake!

It's nice 'pretending to be Greek' when you live as million miles away.

[gyros]

Greece showed up with no proposal to present today. Wow. The lack of urgency by Greece is beyond belief.

[Akritis_1944]

Where did you get that from gyros? I'm reading the opposite.

I guess we are both projecting what we want. You want Greek people to be victim-blamed by the world and for Greeks to be humiliated and die; I want the exact opposite.

We'll see who's right.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Akritis_1944

[gyros]

Where did you get that from gyros? I'm reading the opposite.

I guess we are both projecting what we want. You want Greek people to be victim-blamed by the world and for Greeks to be humiliated and die; I want the exact opposite.

We'll see who's right.

From Eleni Varvitsiotis. She just tweeted it

[JimAdams]

Where did you get that from gyros? I'm reading the opposite.

I guess we are both projecting what we want. You want Greek people to be victim-blamed by the world and for Greeks to be humiliated and die; I want the exact opposite.

We'll see who's right.

Here's a reference:

http://www.skai.gr/news/politics/article/285418/plirofories-horis-protaseis-i-ellada-sto-eurogroup-tha-tis-upovalei-tin-tetarti/'>

[Brklyngrk]

Kathimerini's Brussels correspondent @Elbarbie: Acc to info:Greeks came without proposals.Tomorrow will submit new request and proposals.

[Brklyngrk]

It's not about being for sale, it's about being serious in these negotiations.  If it is true that Greece is unprepared, what better way to anger your peers by not being ready.  Remember, Tsipras said that the banks would originally be open on Tuesday.

[Akritis_1944]

OK, you win this round gyros!

[gyros]

OK, you win this round gyros!

I didn't win anything. It's disappointing that Greece is on the brink and they show up without proposals. Show some urgency and respect to the other member nations. It's 5 months straight of wasting time and playing games.

[JimAdams]

It's not about being for sale, it's about being serious in these negotiations.  If it is true that Greece is unprepared, what better way to anger your peers by not being ready.  Remember, Tsipras said that the banks would originally be open on Tuesday.

Wait a minute! Tsipras just won the referendum. Somebody's gotta go out and party! What is this thing about 'preparedness' and 'responsibility' that you're bring up. Those words DO NOT exist in SYRIZA's dictionary. For them it's all about big words and trying to trick/confuse the public.

These people (Greek government) are just plain-old-ridiculous.

[JimAdams]

People will again continue to fault the Greek government when for the last 5 years have done everything the creditors wanted.

And to a degree the previous government (New Democracy) was making progress in the right direction. Greece would have been out the deep waters in a couple of years.

And then... SYRIZA happened!

Edited July 7, 2015 by JimAdams

[gyros]

And to a degree the previous government (New Democracy) was making progress in the right direction. Greece would have been out the deep waters in a couple of years.

And then... SYRIZA happened!

Complete chaos today. Syriza is talking about nationalizing the banks now.

http://www.antenna.gr/news/m/article?aid=415232

[JimAdams]

Complete chaos today. Syriza is talking about nationalizing the banks now.

Unfortunately, this is just the beginning.

[js1000]

And to a degree the previous government (New Democracy) was making progress in the right direction. Greece would have been out the deep waters in a couple of years.

And then... SYRIZA happened!

Either you're naive or being mischievous, even the IMF who championed austerity said austerity hasn't worked, so if the previous government was still in power you'd have more austerity and asset sales to the point of Greece owning nothing, which of course is the goal of the creditors. 

 

Complete chaos today. Syriza is talking about nationalizing the banks now.

http://www.antenna.gr/news/m/article?aid=415232

Can someone explain to me in laymen terms what the problem with nationalised banks is? we've seen private banks all over the world run amok and cause the global crash in 2008 which governments around the world are still paying through the socialisation of debts and nationalising only the banks that were in trouble to stop them going under, and with the exception of Iceland these reckless speculators and bankers were rewarded for their crimes. 

 

Wait a minute! Tsipras just won the referendum. Somebody's gotta go out and party! What is this thing about 'preparedness' and 'responsibility' that you're bring up. Those words DO NOT exist in SYRIZA's dictionary. For them it's all about big words and trying to trick/confuse the public.

These people (Greek government) are just plain-old-ridiculous.

 

Problem is so are the EU, in fact the EU are worse have a look at their accounts they won't let outside auditors anywhere near their accounts and even their own internal auditors have refused to sign off their accounts for how many years now? yet they want to lecture Greece about how to run their affairs as though they know whats best. 

 

 

BTW 

Cyprus did pretty much what the EU wanted and their banks froze for a few WEEKS leaving people unable to trade and withdraw money which crippled some businesses, it was resolved when these private banks decided to help themselves to peoples savings, so again whats the problem with nationalised banks? private banks don't seem to have a good track record. 

[JimAdams]

There is a reason why despite the fear of losing it all, 2 out of 3 Greeks voted no on Sunday.

What fear are you talking about? Didn't the Prime Minister and Edited July 7, 2015 by JimAdams

[gyros]

There seems to be a slight hope that the new FM made a good presentation. But will The Syriza boneheads ruin it by calling the EU terrorists and making other inappropriate remarks?

[JimAdams]

Either you're naive or being mischievous, even the IMF who championed austerity said austerity hasn't worked, so if the previous government was still in power you'd have more austerity and asset sales to the point of Greece owning nothing, which of course is the goal of the creditors.

Had Greece completed the reforms, she would have been in a position to renegotiate terms following pressure from IMF and US. Gotta play the game first, can't keep asking for a blank check.

Can someone explain to me in laymen terms what the problem with nationalised banks is?

Nationalizing banks does not address of solve any of Greece underlying economy problems. If the government takes over a bank, public shares will suddenly be worthless and shareholders will lose everything. Same with depositors and institutional customers. To prevent total panic, the government will probably cover those stakeholders up to a certain level ? with taxpayers footing the bill once again.

And then you have bureaucracy, corruption and plain-old clientelist appointments for the benefit of the party and not the real economy. Does that sound like Greece to you? Or, need I go on? Unless you think it will be a different (Utopian) Greece with SYRIZA and Tsipras at the helm.

Edited July 7, 2015 by JimAdams

[JimAdams]

There seems to be a slight hope that the new FM made a good presentation. But will The Syriza boneheads ruin it by calling the EU terrorists and making other inappropriate remarks?

The Guardian reads: Eurozone tells Greece not to expect debt relief in near future

"Hopes fade for quick solution to thwart Grexit as Eurogroup finance chiefs show incredulity as new Greek finance minister arrives without detailed proposals"

Good thing Tsipras held a referendum and had a strong hand in negotiations. Otherwise,

Edited July 7, 2015 by JimAdams

[JimAdams]

On top of that, I am not here to have a conversation with YOU, and I could care less about what you said earlier because the truth of the matter is...I skip your posts.

 

 

I guess with the exception of a couple of reasonable guys, this forum has mostly 5-year-old kids. Good to know.

Edited July 7, 2015 by JimAdams

[Brklyngrk]

The only way I see Greece getting a haircut on the debt is if it agrees to some sort of milestone agreement.  Basically, in three months, if Greece has implemented X, Greece gets to keep the interest payments from an escrow account.  In 6 months, if Greece's reforms are still being met, maturities get pushed back....

[gyros]

The only way I see Greece getting a haircut on the debt is if it agrees to some sort of milestone agreement. Basically, in three months, if Greece has implemented X, Greece gets to keep the interest payments from an escrow account. In 6 months, if Greece's reforms are still being met, maturities get pushed back....

That's the only way. You need to be trusted first. Rumors are a summit will be held on Greece this Sunday. Will the banks make it to Sunday?

[Brklyngrk]

Apparently the new finance minister is doing well....Minister Tsakalotos is a breath of fresh air,? Malta Finance Minister Edward Scicluna said in an interview. ?The language has definitely changed, and from what we heard from him and shown through his presentation, he strongly agrees with the Eurogroup that Greece needs a major overhaul.?

 

Finland?s Finance Minister Alexander Stubb, one of the most trenchant critics of the Greek government, said the Oxford-educated economist Tsakalotos ?made a good presentation? even as he was pressed for more concrete proposals. Analysts say Varoufakis?s removal may raise the chances of a new deal for Greece, averting broad default and keeping the nation in the euro region, at least for now

[js1000]

Had Greece completed the reforms, she would have been in a position to renegotiate terms following pressure from IMF and US. Gotta play the game first, can't keep asking for a blank check.

what you're saying (if i'm not mistaken) is a competent right wing Greek government would have done everything the troika demanded, then Greece would negotiate better terms with the EU with possibly some debt relief and a better deal and eventual growth and stability? The problem i have with that position is that even the IMF have said the debt is impossible to repay, something everyone knows regardless of reforms and cuts, and i(and most Greek voters) don't trust the EU/troika/creditors, i believe their agenda is to own everything Greece has through privatisation in exchange for debt relief and then we'd rent everything back off them. They create fresh air money lend it to us with interest and when we can't pay back they demand state assets, and austerity to impoverish our people. 

 

Nationalizing banks does not address of solve any of Greece underlying economy problems. If the government takes over a bank, public shares will suddenly be worthless and shareholders will lose everything. Same with depositors and institutional customers. To prevent total panic, the government will probably cover those stakeholders up to a certain level ? with taxpayers footing the bill once again.

And then you have bureaucracy, corruption and plain-old clientelist appointments for the benefit of the party and not the real economy. Does that sound like Greece to you? Or, need I go on? Unless you think it will be a different (Utopian) Greece with SYRIZA and Tsipras at the helm.

I get what you're saying 'jobs for the boys' 'i'll scratch yours you scratch mine' so to speak, however under the current system of private banks that still goes on, ministers pass laws that benefit banks, make bankers immune from prosecution, allow their bonuses to be sky high, use taxpayers money to bail out their toxic investments and then low and behold these ministers leave their government position and take up a job in the very bank their legislation benefited, its like a revolving door and it happens globally. Also private banks can set interest rates that benefit themselves not the 'real economy' socialising debts and privatising profits doesn't benefit the 'real economy'

why can't the Greek government print its own debt free money? why does money have to be created by privateers and loaned to governments + interest? if the interest isn't created how is a debt supposed to be repaid, there's not enough money in circulation to pay debt + interest. 

And now we have a situation where Greek people who are not in debt can't have access to their own money because the private banks have decided to limit withdrawals(political gesture perhaps?), just like in Cyprus where Cypriots with money in their accounts had their money frozen for weeks. Private banks eh. 

@grkjet great video you posted.

Edited July 7, 2015 by js1000

[jarvis1981]

This changing of the Finance ministers reminds me of a Good Cop / Bad Cop thing.

Many work places use this technique in Canada.

Varoufakis is the bad cop in this scenario with his replacement being the good cop.

Just a random observation on my part. It may not have anything to do with the actual negotiations or results.

[athinaios]

 

Financial terrorism explained very thoroughly, specifically at 16:25

 

Interesting video with many good points. But, I'm amazed that the supporters of the Tsipras referendum, Tsipras, and national independence, etc, fail to see reality.  Equally amazing how people can interpret this video to suit their interests.

 

The reality is:

• Greeece has borrowed huge sums of money, mispent it, lied in its loan application and forged supporting documents; while succeeding Greek governments acted like, "hey, I didn't sign on to these agreements so I don't have to abide".... meanwhile you give me more money ... with the rate and conditions I WANT!! Otherwise, I call you Nazis, terrorists, etc.
• This whole 5 month gamble, since the elections, has cost Greece dearly. Lost productivity, lost time, smaller economy (smaller economy=less money coming in), loss of credibility and worsening of relationships between Greece and its European partners.
• This Syriza gov today would love to have the deal on the table 5 months ago. What savings or better terms they've been negotiating since have been LOST in reality due to the worsening/shrinking of the Greek economy!!
• Collapsing of the banking sector.  Where are those (including people here) who were riding high on nationalistic fervor that banks would open, Europe would kneel to the proud Greeks, etc?  In the last 5 months, billions of euros have been withdrawn from the banks by depositors, investments stopped, no lending for new business (worsening unemployment), and now some are saying Greece can print i.o.u.'s or drachmas or some magical gift certiicates Santa puts in your xmas stocking. :evil:   To those who believe in magical thinking, let me remind you that there are some fundamental you can't disregard, like the credibility of the banking system, the people's trust in the value of the currency, etc.

 

• All, including the loudest sloganeers, feel insecure. They have taken (or would if they could) all their euros out of the bank; there are not spending, making plans to spend, start new business, hire people, plant new crops, travel, etc. This is lethal for an economy. What irates me the most is the amateurish behavior and gambling by the current Greek government. It's the human cost that matters so gambling with other people's lives is criminal.

I asked many times here, how Greeks would be reacting if Fyrom or Turkey had been where Greece is today.... while Greece would be in, say, Finland's position.