greece The Greek Economy Thread

[gyros]

Tsipras is lecturing the European Union with Putin on his side right now.  This is absolutely disgusting.  People are literally dying in hospitals right now due to no supplies and he's telling Europe what to do.  I've never seen a political party so stupid in my life.  I have to say if the majority of Greece supports this clown or even 10%, they deserve everything they get.  What a delusional person.

[gyros]

we have said it many times.....Tsipra and Syriza have no plan for jobs or growth...they are fundamentally opposed to investment and capital...

 

they live in 1970s university essay.

When this government gets chased out of office, one thing that needs to be done is to clean out the universities so they can go back to education and not a breeding ground for left wing pony tailed idiots.

[Dimitri13]

yes, i believe you are correct...but it's still a majority of voters - is it not? what would be a better synonym?

 

A majority of voters should be more than 50%

Technically speaking by what you said above Party A below would constitute a majority:

 

Party A - 26% of total votes

Party B - 25% of total votes

Party C -25% of total votes 

Part D - 24% of total votes

 

For what its worth nothing of what you and I just posted has anything to do with how a government is formed. I don't know how Gerrymandering works in Greece (I don't know enough about the Greek political election process in general)

 

Fun educational video to watch on Gerrymandering - 

[Brklyngrk]

The thing is Syriza is not totally wrong on some of their action points.  The way they went about negotiations with no real, substantive reforms is what has led us to today.  The way they lied to the public on promising them no austerity, no debt, etc...was wrong. Anybody can see that in order for Greece to be a sustainable country, reform is necessary.  We can no longer fight it however they need to be implemented in a manner that would hurt those in need the least.  I am afraid that Syriza's approach has alienated even our closest friends and now we are left on an island by ourselves.

[Koro]

I thought it was law you voted in Greece?

 

I think they changed that rule.

 

I know the electoral system in Greece is not perfect, but I think it is much better than what system we've got here in the UK.

 

Syriza only got like 36% of the total vote, but then they got bonus seats for being the largest party. I personally don't like the idea of bonus seats, but its only to help make a strong government. Even with those bonus seats we should remember that Syriza could not form a majority. So more that 36% voted for the government if you add Syriza and Ind Greek's votes together.

 

Anyway my view is that Tsipras should not go down the same road as Samaras and Papandreou have before. Yeah I'm hoping for an exit, but I'm so sceptical of the EU on the whole that I'd want an exit regardless of the situation. These debates have become more unpredictable recently, but my hunch is still that Tsipras will end up buckling to the EU.

[Akritis_1944]

Forbes lost me at "Macedonia".

Aek66 I think you're on the "money"!

Trickledown economics and flat tax rates are what the neo-cons and free marketeers swear on the graves of Ayn Rand and Reagan as the solution to all problems. Worked great in the USA and certain central American countries, has it?

[js1000]

 

? Privatization. Here?s an easy source of considerable cash that would enormously lighten the pressure on your budget. Prior governments have dragged their feet and have even been unwilling to complete a census of what the government actually owns and how many people work for these entities. This is irresponsible in the extreme. And your government has drastically scaled back what its predecessors were reluctantly going to do.

In 2011 I attended a conference in Athens, the purpose of which was to discuss Greece?s economic future. Among those attending were officials from Poland who had conducted numerous sales of government assets and companies, which totaled in the billions of euros. With exasperation these officials noted that George Papandreou?s government wouldn?t even meet with them to discuss the lessons Poland had learned about the right way to privatize. Your creditors can rightfully claim that continuing to bail you out when you refuse to vigorously pursue such an obvious course of reform is ridiculous.

Like the sell off in 2013 of 28 public buildings to foreign companies at a knock down price which the Greek state is now renting back at an extortionate cost. nice one MR Forbes.

 

we have said it many times.....Tsipra and Syriza have no plan for jobs or growth...they are fundamentally opposed to investment and capital...

they live in 1970s university essay.

Do you prefer the EUs plan for growth? how do you grow an economy by cutting everything, when people have less they spend less which has a knock on effect in private business.

 

 

Greek capitalists exist!! 10,000 came out today in the name of a normal society. Immediately 150 far left anarchist marched on the EU offices not far away in protest at this protest.

the problem isn't capitalism but the banking racket, if you call bailing out banks and asking the people to pay 'normal' then we have a different idea as to what is normal, the reason the protestors came out is that they have savings which they don't want to see devalued by leaving the euro, a little self interest, even if it means the country continues to be run to the ground. remember opposing the banks does not mean opposing capitalism, but we don't have capitalism if state funds are used to bail out failed private businesses(banks). socialising debts, privatising profits. 

growth can only come by leaving this pathetic corrupt unaudited union.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/02/21/greek-bailout-deal-a-farce-to-benefit-banks-at-the-expense-of-greece/

since the above article was written debt to GDP in Greece has risen to 174%

 

 

 

This was never said officially before! ?They gave money to save German and French banks, not Greece,? Paolo Batista, one of the Executive Directors of International Monetary Fund told Greek private Alpha TV on Tuesday. Batista strongly criticized not only the euro zone and the European Central Bank but also the IMF and the Fund?s managing Director Christine Lagarde for defending Europe much too much..

 

 

?London-based pressure group Jubilee Debt Campaign, which has studied the fate of heavily indebted countries around the world, says Greece is right to demand a more generous approach from its creditors, because although it has received an extraordinary ?252bn in bailouts since 2010, just 10% of that has found its way into public spending.

Much of the rest poured straight back out of the country: in debt repayments and interest to its creditors, many of them banks and hedge funds in the core eurozone countries, including Germany and France; and in sweeteners to persuade lenders to sign up to the 2012 bond restructuring that helped prevent the country crashing out of the euro.

In effect, the ?troika? of the European Central Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the European commission has simply replaced the banks and the hedge funds as Greece?s paymasters. The country?s overall debt burden has actually increased in the almost five years since it was first ?rescued?, and of the amount still outstanding, 78% is now owed to public sector institutions, primarily the EU.

so of 252bn received by Greece 90% goes straight out the country to prop up foreign banks, yet posters on here want to blame the greek 'mentality' or SYRIZA or the unions or 10 year degrees for all of greece's woes and neglect to look at the real culprits, its a shame you have greek people who are apologists for the very banks that destroyed them. 

I've heard it said on here the government doesn't owe people a living which is true but by the same token the people don't owe foreign banks a living. 10% of bailout money stayed in Greece and for that they've squeezed the people until the pips squeaked. We've seen the state of the hospitals and people suffering yet some people want more of the same, thankfully its only a small number of Greeks who are pro EU. 

 

you cannot pay debts(especially with obscene interest added on) unless you create wealth and you cannot create wealth by cutting everything, besides its obvious its unpayable. 

[Akritis_1944]

Yeah it's obviously intended for a USA domestic audience.

[gyros]

The misinformation by the leftists who may either be doing it intentionally or are not educated.  Using the banks as the bogeyman is completely laughable because if the banks didn't loan money to Greece, then the country would have defaulted 10 years ago.  The money from the banks was given to Greece to sustain the unsustainable Greek lifestyle of early retirements, no taxes, free health care etc...  It all came crashing down when the bills were due.  Now its the banks fault.  But hey, Syriza and the Unions need an enemy and they aren't going to admit its themselves so point the finger at the banks.  

[Koro]

 

eu or ez?

 

i would believe that most greeks are still very pro-eu...we know they are definately pro-ez.

 

It is much easier to be pro-EU than pro-EZ. There used to be a lot more pro-EZ people before the economic crisis across Europe, but they've mostly shut up after the financial collapse. Now all the nations that didn't join the EZ like UK are thanking their luck that they didn't.

 

I can see why loads of people are in favour of the concept of a united Europe/EU, but in practice the EU is far from perfect and very unaccountable.

[oeps]

Wanting to stay in the Eurozone seems to depend on the availability of new loans. And really, Greece's EU partners are not willing to continue financing an unsustainable economic system. Inside or outside the Eurozone, Greece will have to make reforms. Tsipras wants to run a very expensive social system without a corresponding earning capacity. So unless Russia agrees to finance him permanently (like Cuba in the past), Tsipras will either have to spend less, start collecting taxes, or actually start making some money. Borrowing on the open market will cost 35% interest. 

[js1000]

The misinformation by the leftists who may either be doing it intentionally or are not educated.  Using the banks as the bogeyman is completely laughable because if the banks didn't loan money to Greece, then the country would have defaulted 10 years ago.  The money from the banks was given to Greece to sustain the unsustainable Greek lifestyle of early retirements, no taxes, free health care etc...  It all came crashing down when the bills were due.  Now its the banks fault.  But hey, Syriza and the Unions need an enemy and they aren't going to admit its themselves so point the finger at the banks.  

So the banks did Greece a favour did they? which banks in particular, was it goldman who cooked the books took consultancy fees and ran off betting on Greece to fail? 

If the banks knew it was 'unsustainable' the super high standard of living the bloated public sector etc etc why did they lend, was it for the love of Greece was it to help Greek people or was it to collect obscene amounts of interest from the Greek state safe in the knowledge that if Greece defaulted they'd be bailed out with more loans and more interest to service existing debt, followed by privatisation and the transfer of Greek assets to creditors.

I like your language Gyros, anyone who questions the conduct of the banks is an 'uneducated leftist' who's spreading 'misinformation' 

 

this is the super-foustanella narrative. the banks destroyed greece?

the banks bought greek bonds (much better rates for greece with euro compared to dpx.) for nearly a decade and the greek govt. used that money to finance early and generous retirements and bloat state jobs and to thank the greek govt., everyone else decided to avoid paying taxes and used the ministries as personal atm machines and wedges to extort bribes.

no one minded the store. 

we all knew that the majority of tax payer monies from eu states (later, included imf) would go right back to national banks which purchased the now, super distressed greek bond

Are the banks blameless? their solution to the Greek debt is.... more debt, because they know they can't lose, no one forced these private banks to buy Greek bonds, and you blame the government(which wasn't SYRIZA) on blowing it on 'bloated public sector' 'early generous retirements' and general people not paying tax(in the UK only the super rich/corporations avoid paying tax but no one minds) yet you neglect to mention interest payments, i'm not saying the government was blameless but neither are the banks, seems people get touchy when you mention the conduct of the banks, banding about statements like super-fustanella narrative. 

If you ran a successful small business in Greece and saw most of the states money going to pay foreign creditors would you be doing your best to pay as little tax as possible ? be honest.

like the big boys do in the UK, pfizer google starbuck amazon npower vodafone to name a few.

[oeps]

@js1000
No the banks are not blameless, hence their losses in writing off 75% of their loans to Greece. Greece itself was the borrower and was knowledgeable enough not to be lured into credits it didn't really want. Greece lived the good life in the shape of early retirement, high government handouts and an increase in the traditional cronyism. Now Greece will have to pay for all that itself, finally.

Edited June 20, 2015 by oeps

[Giourkas]

Loved the link of Forbes' open letter to Tsipras. I was about to post it myself but Reaper beat me to it... By a day!

His suggestions make total sense, which is why they will probably never will be implemented...

[gyros]

Some people just don't get it.  Greece has to borrow money to survive.  Not because of the banks, but because they spend way more money than they bring in.  Again, some people can't get their fingers wrapped around the fact that Greeks have been major tax evaders for decades, not since the start of the Euro. I remember being there in 2005 and the arrogance of Greeks and they were all living the life.  Unfortunately, that life was a mirage on borrowed funds.

[gyros]

Everyone is talking about a deadline Monday but I bet nothing happens and the deadline is extended AGAIN.

[js1000]

 

the usa can't afford citizens in the work force for 25-30 years working AND actually paying taxes for those 25-30 years and then collecting a govt check (social security) for 40 years after retirement. 

The pentagon has since 1996 lost - just shrugged their shoulders when asked - $8.5trillion, this does not account for their total expenditure during this period, just what is unaccounted for, the USA can also afford very generous foreign aid for countries like Egypt and Israel, and they still found enough to hand the bankers pretty much what they wanted after the crash, meanwhile Detroit is in a worse state than Greece and you wonder why they want to cut people's pensions. 

 

 

they bought our bonds, like everyone else's bonds...and it's obvious that central banks can't win, either way.

Can't win? they can't lose they should be allowed to fail instead of being propped up by states in exchange for 'austerity', isn't that what capitalism is all about?

 

in today's world, i don't know of too many nations that run an actual surplus (say an oil-rich emirate like brunei or even germany, this year i believe).

the result is that nations needs to sell debt to pay for things, otherwise standards of living would regress significantly - cut, cut and more cuts, to balance every nation's budget.

This is where we disagree, I believe corruption and incompetence is the cause of debt, i.e. the pentagon losing trillions, foreign aid programmes, the fed refusing to disclose where bailout money went, remember good old Ben Bernanke refusing to answer questions about it to congress, unlimited amount for wars, no one seems to question where we always find the money for that.

you on the other hand(and all posters on here) point to people having too high a standard of living as the cause.

 

 

Some people just don't get it.  Greece has to borrow money to survive.  Not because of the banks, but because they spend way more money than they bring in.  Again, some people can't get their fingers wrapped around the fact that Greeks have been major tax evaders for decades, not since the start of the Euro. I remember being there in 2005 and the arrogance of Greeks and they were all living the life.  Unfortunately, that life was a mirage on borrowed funds.

A defence minister is caught taking bungs, in exchange for these bungs he borrows money from German banks that Greece can't pay back at high interest rates in order to buy german military equipment that we didn't need, we know the corruption with the finance minister and goldman, these are just examples we know about imagine the wastage we're unaware of, yet you point the finger at your brethren living the life as the sole cause, you seem to be cherishing their misery. 

The US banks went tits up by lending money to hobo's to purchase property, do you blame the hobo's for taking the money and defaulting or the banks that approved these mortgages for a quick buck? the hobo's for a while lived beyond their means, did the banks who acted in this way deserve to be bailed by working people like your good self and aek66 who in no way caused the crisis ? should you be asked for more tax a worse pension etc etc just to save these so called 'to big to fail'? those 4 words prove we don't have capitalist system. 

[Bananas]

Everyone is talking about a deadline Monday but I bet nothing happens and the deadline is extended AGAIN.

 

Yes, if nothing is agreed to the satisfaction of the EU.  They will never willingly allow Greece to stop using the Euro as its currency.  Basically they will buy time by kicking the can down the road in the hope that a different Greek government will get voted in that is more friendly to their wants, or the current government somehow becomes more "sensible".

 

That's assuming the current government complies by accepting yet another temporary loan with which to pay back the interest on the permanent loan.  This is the great unknown.

 

I expect there to be an agreement but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't, and they just "roll over" this months repayments into next months (just like they did with the previous IMF payment) at which point the whole world should shrug their shoulders and say, what's all the fuss about, and just stop paying attention.

[Dutch Eagle]

According to Greek media Tsipras has made a good step by announcing that Greece is ready to abolish early retirement, increase the VAT and raise taxes for the rich. Juncker has called it a good basis for todays meeting. 

[RED SHERIFF]

@JS1000

 

The point is that regardless of what happens we need major reform....

 

it's ridiculous as to the difficulties one encounters to start a business or to invest.....Institutions that masquerade for Unions like P.A.M.E are a cancer....

 

The whole education system is controlled by lunatic lefties....people living in a 1970s university essay...

 

'protection' for closed industries for the mere purpose of survival tied up in incomprehensible legislation...that refer to the constitution....written by 19th century legislators......  total absurdity...

 

a collective that truly believes in meaningless non existent public service jobs, created to support a failed crumbling system..

no accountability, no responsibility....

 

If the entire debt was written off tomorrow we would be in the same boat in 15 years...

 

there is no political will to improve...focusing on corrupt politicians is diversion from real issues..

[Koro]

Edited June 22, 2015 by Koro

[gyros]

It sounds positive tonight but until something is officially signed, I wouldn't get too excited.

[js1000]

@JS1000

 

The point is that regardless of what happens we need major reform....

 

it's ridiculous as to the difficulties one encounters to start a business or to invest.....Institutions that masquerade for Unions like P.A.M.E are a cancer....

 

The whole education system is controlled by lunatic lefties....people living in a 1970s university essay...

 

'protection' for closed industries for the mere purpose of survival tied up in incomprehensible legislation...that refer to the constitution....written by 19th century legislators......  total absurdity...

 

a collective that truly believes in meaningless non existent public service jobs, created to support a failed crumbling system..

no accountability, no responsibility....

 

If the entire debt was written off tomorrow we would be in the same boat in 15 years...

 

there is no political will to improve...focusing on corrupt politicians is diversion from real issues..

That's partly true, however if you stopped pension payments completely doubled VAT and collected more taxes the debt would still be unpayable, its too late for reform now with this much debt, Greece needs to leave the union and single currency otherwise any 'reforms' made will never be enough.

Tsiparas is a sell out he'll concede to what ever he's told to

 

 

there is no political will to improve...focusing on corrupt politicians is diversion from real issues..

I really don't understand this point of view, why do you give the big boys a free pass, they are the ones that make the laws and decisions and they are the ones who've done most to put the country in debt in order to feather their own nests. I've listed in previous posts some of their appalling behaviour but no one seems to mind.

 

anti austerity march

 

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/06/21/people-will-not-be-blackmailed-thousands-march-athens-against-austerity

another good article

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/greece-capitulates-tsipras-crosses-red-line-will-accept-bailout-extension

[Bananas]

The same reason you give the Greeks who vote in proven corrupt politicians a pass.

 

Greece is corrupt from top to bottom. To focus simply one demographic of the corrupt is facetious.

 

Facetious much ?  All you ever do is focus on one demographic.  The weather was bad today, so those left leaning commie bastard anti Junta scums are to blame ...

[js1000]

but you're also focusing on one demographic, besides here's an article in todays dailymail which will resonate with your point of view, it basically says how wonderful northern europe is and how horrid Greeks are

 

 

It was ridiculous to create a common currency in the absence of a common system of government. It was madness to join together a clutch of northern nations that pay taxes, respect agreements and are reasonably uncorrupt with such countries as Italy, Spain and, above all, Greece, where honest men inspire derision.

also

 

 

Suddenly, the 20 per cent of the workforce employed by the state found themselves enjoying soaring wages and gold-plated pensions. The payment of taxes, never a Greek custom, was abolished. Scarcely a voter in the land went unbribed. Greek ministers told their creditors loftily: ?Send the bill to Berlin.?

love it, blame the people laud how wonderful other non corrupt nordic nations are and paint the Greeks as lazy non tax paying scum.

 

Yet the Greeks do not even pretend they are willing to change their ways.

With less finesse than the average highwayman, they are demanding a debt amnesty and another hand-out.

link to full article below, this could have been written by one of many posters on here. the western media narrative 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3135382/MAX-HASTINGS-deal-stitched-Greeks-victory-cowardice-make-euro-crisis-worse.html