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The situation is messy.  Yes, we have our best 3 CB's out but the ultimate question is, who runs the team ?  JVS has let everyone know who he thinks it should be.

Siovas had a HUGE brain fart moment and he basically said JVS could do a better job.  Players have egos but so do managers.  Georgatos and Zikos messed with Rehhagel and never made it back.  Maybe it will be the same with Siovas and Manolas.  I hope it can somehow be resolved but I don't see how.  If he picks them they'll think "see, he needs us and can't do without us" and no way JVS will allow that.  What a mess Siovas created.  He just pulled his pants down, took a big crap in JVS's living room and then tried to convince him it smells like roses.

As for Olympiacos players not getting selected, I think it's really simple.  They will be given the opportunity and if JVS feels they can contribute and have the right attitude they will be selected.  If he gets a whiff of players not giving 100% or suddenly becoming injured, I think he'll just move on.  I really don't think he'll be that fussed by it.

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I represented Greece on the national level for the Greek National Baseball team in European competitions in Euro 2012. I was in tears the first time I wore that jersey and heard the anthem. So from so

Oh, I saw an EPO video and I thought Stafylidis was in the squad. Cool. In that case, I think he will start Svarnas who was invited to the press conference. I get JVS. After the draw with Li

Pirated Pirates:                                                                               4 3 3                                                              Rockafella Skank (scores)

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

More and more I am gaining respect for the coach. Team comes first.

Exactly, I know a thing or two about coaching. If any of my players give me an attitude, I will kick there behind good bye. 

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9 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

I don't know Siovas personally to judge him but I think it was deliberate to either get himself thrown off the team or just stir up $#!t .

Well he succeeded on both counts!  I will go with Occam's razor - I think he was on a high after the game (good win and scored a great goal) and just said what was on his mind - his filter was in sleep mode.  Either way, when you start saying things like the coach should select this player, I play better with that player, and it happens you're talking about your koumbaro who by all accounts has a difficult personality, um, there's the exit door.  I'm sure he regrets what he said, but Greeks being Greeks he'd probably puff out his chest and say he meant it.

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Hello from Athens everyone. 

I think the results of the last 2 games have been παραπλανητικά. The team played like s%$#! in both games. Noone will judge JVS now simply because the results have been good, but, what will happen when we have a setback in this group or the WC one.

Right now with Siovas , Manolas, Sokratis gone we have no experienced CB 25+ worth calling. He is calling Lambropoulos 4 fuq sake who is playing in Bundesliga 2. Our next big things as CBs are nowhere to be found the last 1 year. Mavropanos? No playtime in Stuttgart, not even on the bench first matchday. Dimitris Nikolaou? Anyone remember him playing for the NT under Skibbe? Benching in Serie B. Retsos ? Injury prone. Hasnt had regular football time since of 2018. Hatzidiakos? Benching. Has had one half of a game in Holland. Wasnt even on the bench vs Dynamo Kyiv for the C.L. Qualifiers. Even Stafylidis the recently promoted to "shortest CB the Greece NT even fielded" is injured.

We re gonna field a defence of Svarnas - Michailidis - Kourbelis/Lykogiannis mark my words (Lykogiannis has had a couple of games as a LCB in Cagliari in 3-5-2 that's why im mentioning him.) If it's Barkas on the goalposts im gonna bet a 5 euro on both teams scoring when we play Moldova. And don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't rate Michailidis Lykogiannis or Svarnas. It's just that they re not ready to start for the NT and they have no idea of each other at all.

 

On the positives now, one thing I like about Skibbe is his offensive mentality. All 4 of our players in offence are pressing non-stop which is what you need against such low teams who are willing to waste time if the game is 0-0. Remember that most of our games with bad teams like Armenia a year ago and 1-1 Liechtenstein or Finland/Estonia defeats, we re hunting for a goal and they seem okay with the draw or whatever and suddently they score out of nowhere and with the mentality low we re trying to get a goal or two back. 

The way Limnios Bakasetas Mantalos and Koulouris or Pavlidis are nonstop running not allowing the defenders of these very bad teams to keep ball and forcing their goalie to make a big ball in instead of short passing is the reason we re getting the good results. The defenders have nothing to do with it. 

As I said at the start of my post, when the bad results suddently start happening (its not gonna be so sudden) judgement of the coach will also begin from all these people who "Eγω ειμαι μαζι με τον προπονητη 100% γιατι εχει @@ και πανω απο ολα η ομάδα" will be against him too. And what happens in the middle of the WC Qualifiers if this happens? We just have to wait 2 more years for the next qualifiers.

Also, with all the respect to Mantalos. We re talking about a 30 year old 8-10 who was ready to make his final paycheck move to Saudi Arabia or Emirates or somewhere nearby. I am an Olympiakos and one thing I know is that Masouras work-rate and work-ethic is on point. What these things mean is pretty much that if the coach wants him to track down and press the opposite defence, that's what he will do. The only reason Mantalos is starting is because of these things. But apart from that, Masouras also is faster, becomes an extra man in the box, has a decent header too and can shoot better than Mantalos. From all Schip's crimes in the line-up, this is the one that hurts me the most. Even Aek fans don't rate Mantalos.

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By the next WC Sokratis will be 34.  Siovas 34.  Manolas 31.  If you're going to put all your eggs in that basket good luck.  Wouldn't it be better now to find a new bunch of players and give them game time.  Let them learn the system and discipline to be ready.  If it happens the oldies have still got it, and their attitude is good, fine, recall them.  But to rely on them being fit, ready, uninjured, and more importantly without the attitude, good luck with that.

Comparing Mantalos to Masouras, not sure where you're going with it.  Totally different players, totally different roles.  Mantalos is one of the smarter footballers in the squad.  He "gets" the game.  That's why he's selected.  I've never heard of AEK fans that don't rate him.

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If you re never heard Aek fans not rating Mantalos you ve probably not heard a lot of Aek fans talk about him.
I agree for the next WC 2 of the players you said will be sort of old, but we need to make it there or at least look competitive at the qualifiers to even hope we ll make it now? None of these lads are promising if you ask me. The only Promising players we have are Limnios Pavlidis Lamprou Michailidis and Tzolis. 

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13 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

Hello from Athens everyone. 

I think the results of the last 2 games have been παραπλανητικά. The team played like s%$#! in both games. Noone will judge JVS now simply because the results have been good, but, what will happen when we have a setback in this group or the WC one.

Right now with Siovas , Manolas, Sokratis gone we have no experienced CB 25+ worth calling. He is calling Lambropoulos 4 fuq sake who is playing in Bundesliga 2. Our next big things as CBs are nowhere to be found the last 1 year. Mavropanos? No playtime in Stuttgart, not even on the bench first matchday. Dimitris Nikolaou? Anyone remember him playing for the NT under Skibbe? Benching in Serie B. Retsos ? Injury prone. Hasnt had regular football time since of 2018. Hatzidiakos? Benching. Has had one half of a game in Holland. Wasnt even on the bench vs Dynamo Kyiv for the C.L. Qualifiers. Even Stafylidis the recently promoted to "shortest CB the Greece NT even fielded" is injured.

We re gonna field a defence of Svarnas - Michailidis - Kourbelis/Lykogiannis mark my words (Lykogiannis has had a couple of games as a LCB in Cagliari in 3-5-2 that's why im mentioning him.) If it's Barkas on the goalposts im gonna bet a 5 euro on both teams scoring when we play Moldova. And don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't rate Michailidis Lykogiannis or Svarnas. It's just that they re not ready to start for the NT and they have no idea of each other at all.

 

On the positives now, one thing I like about Skibbe is his offensive mentality. All 4 of our players in offence are pressing non-stop which is what you need against such low teams who are willing to waste time if the game is 0-0. Remember that most of our games with bad teams like Armenia a year ago and 1-1 Liechtenstein or Finland/Estonia defeats, we re hunting for a goal and they seem okay with the draw or whatever and suddently they score out of nowhere and with the mentality low we re trying to get a goal or two back. 

The way Limnios Bakasetas Mantalos and Koulouris or Pavlidis are nonstop running not allowing the defenders of these very bad teams to keep ball and forcing their goalie to make a big ball in instead of short passing is the reason we re getting the good results. The defenders have nothing to do with it. 

As I said at the start of my post, when the bad results suddently start happening (its not gonna be so sudden) judgement of the coach will also begin from all these people who "Eγω ειμαι μαζι με τον προπονητη 100% γιατι εχει @@ και πανω απο ολα η ομάδα" will be against him too. And what happens in the middle of the WC Qualifiers if this happens? We just have to wait 2 more years for the next qualifiers.

Also, with all the respect to Mantalos. We re talking about a 30 year old 8-10 who was ready to make his final paycheck move to Saudi Arabia or Emirates or somewhere nearby. I am an Olympiakos and one thing I know is that Masouras work-rate and work-ethic is on point. What these things mean is pretty much that if the coach wants him to track down and press the opposite defence, that's what he will do. The only reason Mantalos is starting is because of these things. But apart from that, Masouras also is faster, becomes an extra man in the box, has a decent header too and can shoot better than Mantalos. From all Schip's crimes in the line-up, this is the one that hurts me the most. Even Aek fans don't rate Mantalos.

And with the high constant press, how can JVS ever bring back Fortounis and Mitrobanos/Mykonos? Very non commital players.

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 Hatzidiakos, Retsos and Mavropanos are coming back from injuries.  That is why they really haven't played much.  Siovas tried to take back what he said afterwards but it was too late.  The back does concern me but if we are building for the future, he needs to experiment. Masouras may be a hard worker and I do think he should play winger over Mantalos, Mantalos had played better than Masouras the previous string of games.

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Dumping of Siovas is probably justified, for reasons given, and the coach can invite whoever he wants.

Coach has in the past, said he has not discounted Soc, Manolas inclusion. But, why not come out at the start of NL and say the door is STILL open for Soc, Manolas but he is not going to use them for these matches. 

If he's never going to select them again, then at least let the players and media know, and his reasons for their exclusion.  Like them or not, these players have given great service to the NT and deserve a bit better treatment, IMO.

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3 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

So what you are saying is that you want to get a head start on the bitching so you can reserve the right to say "I told you so"? We are not married to the coach....if he doesn't get results he will be canned and he knows it.....that's why he's not taking any $#!t from the likes of Siovas, Sokratis, Manolas etc. and he is correct in doing so. International football is result-driven more so than at the club level and there is very little time for preparation and tactics so if someone isn't all in then he's out...very simple. Let's not beat a dead horse here....it's not JVS's fault Siovas, Sokratis and Manolas behaved they way they did, they are 100% responsible for their actions and he can't pretend that nothing happened and look the other way.

As for the selections and starters, let's review the Schipster's resume :

-As a player-
11 years as a winger on Ajax during arguably club's greatest stretch of success.
League champion in 1982, 1983, 1985, and 1990, and cup champion in 1983, 1986 and 1987
1987 European Cup Winners' Cup and the 1992 UEFA Cup
1983 FIFA World Youth Championship
UEFA Euro 1988 champions
UEFA Euro 1992 semifinalist

Another 4 years in Series A for Genoa before retiring.

-Coaching career-
1 yr Manager AjaxU17
1 yr Manager AjaxU19
1 yr Ass. Manager Ajax
1 yr Manager Twente FC
2 yrs Ass. Manager Ajax U21
4 yrs Ass. Manager to Marco Van Basten Netherlands national team
2  yrs Ass. Manager to Martin Jol
6 yrs Manager/Technical Director Melbourne
Brief spells in Mexico and Poland as manager.

From his playing experience I think its safe to say he knows about wingers....seriously.
Does anyone really think this guy is clueless?

Exactly why we need CBs to be able to play with the ball at their feet and transition the play and not necessarily be the killer tackler or manmarker....not saying they should be incompetent but this can't be the only aspect of their game. This is another reason why he is looking beyond the Sokratis/Manolas duo.
 

 

They have served well in the past and no one can take that away from them. I am sure he meant it when he said the door is open to their return as long as they fit into the team....but the reasons are obvious why he has gone in a different direction as things were not working on any level during post-Santos era. The coach shouldn't have to get into a huge drama over this.

You got my post completely wrong. It's not the "I told you so" that I am aiming for. It's that everyone will be against him with such a bossy mentality excluding elite players and managing to lose to teams he should not. And the opinions about him vs Sokratis Manolas Siovas are currently 50/50 because he is - so far - getting decent results. That my point. Everyone turns around at the obvious becuse in the end it's the result that we need. But the team playing like shiet and its gonna keep playing like that with these alchemies.

And trust me, all these people who have played professional football in such high level are completely unaware what unemployment and starving actually are. He is just doing his hobby in a team that noone had expectations for anything of him. He took a 3rd NL team and worst case scenario he kept it there. He got a 3rd pot National Team and worst case scenario (it's not the worst we all know it) he finished 3rd - 4th in the WC Qualifiers. How does this affect his career as a coach? 0 to minimum. How does being unemployed for a bit affect his every day life after so many years of Professional Football in top level and Managerial career so far ? 0 to minus. How does another failed campaign affect our National Team - an extra drop in the Rankings - especially now that we seem to have decent forwards who are willing to sweat for the NT? You tell me.

 

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The biggest concern about JVS who people here claim to be a coaching master is that, since you point out he had a career as a winger, prefers to see Bakakis who would be a bench player for any serious team in the 90's instead of a premier league full back who is better in every aspect of the game. 

That sums it up about his knowledge of the game.

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Bakakis is horrible. But baldock stinks too. He been playing in the epl for only 3 years and he’s 27. Before that he was a journeyman. If he were any good, England would have nabbed him already. The only reason he wants to play for Greece is because he’d never get a sniff playing for England. They are using the system to cash in. Vlachodimos has always preferred Germany over Greece. It’s a known fact. Until he realized who’s in front of him and that he would never ever even get close to the German dressing room. 

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19 hours ago, kbxk508 said:

Dumping of Siovas is probably justified, for reasons given, and the coach can invite whoever he wants.

Coach has in the past, said he has not discounted Soc, Manolas inclusion. But, why not come out at the start of NL and say the door is STILL open for Soc, Manolas but he is not going to use them for these matches. 

If he's never going to select them again, then at least let the players and media know, and his reasons for their exclusion.  Like them or not, these players have given great service to the NT and deserve a bit better treatment, IMO.

I don't remember it being official when Holebas/Cholevas was never picked again, as it wasn't when Tziolis wasn't picked again. That one in particular with Tziolis, I was in a padded cell for 3 months trying to move forward when that happened!

Retsos is a gun, hope he stays injury free for a change. Anyone hear about Kyriakos, he on holidays?

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Holebas decided to retire from NT during Scibbe era, and was invited back by Anastasiadis, but stayed away. Not the same.

By the way, I'm a fan of van't Schipp, and I like what he is trying to do. Siovas was our best player in the 2 games just played. I can understand leaving out Soc, Manolas when you have at least Siovas. But, with Siovas demise, Hatzidiakos is not ready from a serious injury, Stafylidis inj., I think that at least one of Soc, Manolas will need to come back for the rest of Nation League as to go with inexperienced CBs is too risky. IMO. 

We have to top the Group in Nation League as anything less will be considered failure.

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Baldock is a very good wingerback and for a team that is playing 3-6-1 like our NT Baldock will be decent.

Just because Baldock is not in the level of Trent Alexander Arnold of Liverpool and Kyle Walker of Manchester City or Reece James of Chelsea which are the Right Backs that England is aiming at, it does not mean that he is as bad as Bakakis. That's a clowny mentality and thought. He is somewhere in the middle.

I am pretty sure, according to JVS sayings that he is willing to call him up but bureaucracy did not make it in time to make Baldock eligible for the NT. I am sure he will be here, maybe not for the NL but for the WC qualifiers, as both teams have agreed that they are willing for this to go through. With Baldock on the Right and Tsimikas/ Giannoulis / Lykogiannis / Kyriakopoulos / Stafylidis on the Left we will always have a decent pair of Fullbacks. CBs is the problem and both Kossovo and Slovenia proved that with one or two decent chances, if the CB is not aware of his surroundings, they can score.

This has always been the problem with the Greek NT since 2014. Lesser Nations winning with out of place and unneeded penalties or converting one and two chances in one and two goals. Van Schip has not changed that. The defence is a coffee shop, far worse than how it was under Skibbe. Van Schip has only changed our offensive plan and made us able to press and score past bad teams. When we play a better team (and when I mean better I dont mean England or Belgium, realistically speaking its gonna be a derby and a huge improvement beating teams like Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, Ukraine) these 1 and 2 chances that seem convertable will be 5 and 6. That's when the defenders come to join the game, and that's when Svarnas,  Hatzidiakos, Michailidis, Lambropoulos will not be enough. For everyone who has played football, knowing that having some very good defenders on your back is a huge relief for a midfielder who can focus on his attacking duties and box-to-box transition without worrying that if X player passes him over, the defence will be in trouble. Having Sokratis on the bench and Manolas at the starting line-up will be a boost for all of the players and that's exactly what Siovas said.

I do not agree with Siovas action, but he f*cking stated the obvious. And I will once again repeat my previous statement. When the results stop being good, pro-JVS fans will start being against him as well. 

 

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42 minutes ago, AchillesHeel said:

I don't understand the logic of this as you are stating the obvious....this is football. Remember when Santos was managing the team and had a record of W26 D16 L7....and everyone was calling for his head because we were playing boring football? At least the NT had a semblance of identity and everyone who played against us new they were in for a battle....just as we all knew that playing weaker teams would be a battle for us as the team's offence was weak. We got to the quarter finals at Euro 2012 and the round of 16 at WC 2014 despite the shortcomings of the team....and still people complained about Santos. A slew of coaches followed and the NT looked like a freshman class at clown college. These were many of the same players that have been dropped by the Schipster that couldn't perform under various managers so where do you think the problem lay?

Now JVS is trying to build a new team and while the displays were disappointing in the last 2 games due to player fitness and inactivity he still got pretty good results. We still had glimpses of how he wants the team to play. As I said before he can't do anything about Siovas' actions except to drop him. Manolas and Sokratis' actions were against Anastsiadis and the NT unity so he doesn't need to defend not calling them. If these 2 get called back is there any guarantee they won't act out again and why would he risk it? It sucks that we can't use our 2 top shelf CBs but the coach can't just bend over and take it....he would then lose control of the team entirely.

I can't believe we have posters waxing nostalgic about Skibbe.

The problem never layed to the coaches and it never layed to the players as well.

You think Ranieri is a bad coach? You think Skibbe was a bad coach? Or do you think that players like Manolas Sokratis Samaris and Mitroglou, who were the stars then, were not decent enough to beat Liechtenstein and Estonia? The problem always layed with EPO. It's hilarious that you guys cant think outside the box. The same moment that Siovas comes out and sais what he sais, Barkas states that "we are finally happy to be joining the national team, and that's a JVS effect". Totally unintentionally unrelated statements , right? Or maybe not.

You talk about NT unity but you are really forgetting one thing. The actions of Sokratis (and Manolas follow-up) were the reason that the EPO took drastic measures ,threw Anastasiadis away and after a lot of thought decided to get JVS. Sokratis actions literally prove that he cares for the NT and it's literally unable for you to comprehend. And you people have hilarious arguments that "if JVS loses he is gonna take the blame and thus he is gonna lose his job". I said yesterday, and here it comes again. These guys live in a bubble. Has been a pro footballer for almost 20 years and has been a coach for quite some period of time. The money he gets per month is minimum as much as you make in 1,5-2 years. Losing this "job" (aka hobby) of his will cost HIM nothing at all as his job was impossible for anyone outside of Greece. The players are gonna lose a lot more than him for yet another failed campaign. And when they see that the innevitable is comming and they say it, suddently they are the [email protected]@kas Manolas and [email protected]@kas Sokratis who put themselves above the team. 

And just to remind you about the players having no bad critics from the fans if another failed campaign with the NT comes(since according to you its all on the coach), Ethniki Mykonou is still a thing. For some reason you people believe that the players couldnt care less to be part of the NT while at the same time they re creating all this fuss. If you really believe not caring translates to "I make a fuss hoping the team gets something out of it" then I have clearly wasted my time writing all of this.

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1 hour ago, paokarag4 said:

You're saying a football manager who doesn't get results, the fans will start to turn on him? I'm shocked. 

I am saying that right now everyone is glorifying him for doing what he did to the players who stepped up. I am saying that his selections will be criticised once we run out of beatable nations (and pseudo-nations). When everyone is happy (fans, EPO) there is no problem. When noone is happy from the results there will only be problems.

 

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4 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

Baldock is a very good wingerback and for a team that is playing 3-6-1 like our NT Baldock will be decent.

Just because Baldock is not in the level of Trent Alexander Arnold of Liverpool and Kyle Walker of Manchester City or Reece James of Chelsea which are the Right Backs that England is aiming at, it does not mean that he is as bad as Bakakis. That's a clowny mentality and thought. He is somewhere in the middle.

I am pretty sure, according to JVS sayings that he is willing to call him up but bureaucracy did not make it in time to make Baldock eligible for the NT. I am sure he will be here, maybe not for the NL but for the WC qualifiers, as both teams have agreed that they are willing for this to go through. With Baldock on the Right and Tsimikas/ Giannoulis / Lykogiannis / Kyriakopoulos / Stafylidis on the Left we will always have a decent pair of Fullbacks. CBs is the problem and both Kossovo and Slovenia proved that with one or two decent chances, if the CB is not aware of his surroundings, they can score.

This has always been the problem with the Greek NT since 2014. Lesser Nations winning with out of place and unneeded penalties or converting one and two chances in one and two goals. Van Schip has not changed that. The defence is a coffee shop, far worse than how it was under Skibbe. Van Schip has only changed our offensive plan and made us able to press and score past bad teams. When we play a better team (and when I mean better I dont mean England or Belgium, realistically speaking its gonna be a derby and a huge improvement beating teams like Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, Ukraine) these 1 and 2 chances that seem convertable will be 5 and 6. That's when the defenders come to join the game, and that's when Svarnas,  Hatzidiakos, Michailidis, Lambropoulos will not be enough. For everyone who has played football, knowing that having some very good defenders on your back is a huge relief for a midfielder who can focus on his attacking duties and box-to-box transition without worrying that if X player passes him over, the defence will be in trouble. Having Sokratis on the bench and Manolas at the starting line-up will be a boost for all of the players and that's exactly what Siovas said.

I do not agree with Siovas action, but he f*cking stated the obvious. And I will once again repeat my previous statement. When the results stop being good, pro-JVS fans will start being against him as well. 

 

I never said he was as bad as Bakakis.  No need to call names over the internet. He’s not as good as you make him out to be. If there is no one in Greece better than Baldock. (Yes Baldock) not Cafu , then there is problems. 

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25 minutes ago, Jimmyp said:

I never said he was as bad as Bakakis.  No need to call names over the internet. He’s not as good as you make him out to be. If there is no one in Greece better than Baldock. (Yes Baldock) not Cafu , then there is problems. 

Baldock is decent for PL level. I don't understand your point. We re playing with teams who would kill for a starter in a midtable PL club. We were just used to having Torosidis who was a beast for the NT that you re forgetting we haven't had a decent RB the last 4 years (if you add Toro's last games where he was terriblue due to age). 

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Are we better with Manolas and Socratis on the team? Yes I don’t think that is up for debate but the attitudes they bring does far more damage to the team then good, they think they can run the show and that’s not how it works. I remember they caused a huge stink when Toro wasn’t called up and it showed in there play. Is that what you guys want? Two players who get to decide who plays and who doesn’t? Come on guys wake up. In a perfect world of course I want them on the team if they had better attitudes. Maybe that will change If JVS has a talk with them down the road who knows. As far as Siovas is concerned it’s a shame but in what universe does he think it’s okay to call out a coach and making another teammate feel like s%$#! (Svarnas)? That is totally unacceptable and he deserved to be cut from the team. All the players that have attitudes and can’t just keep there mouth shut and play the way the coach wants them to play should not be on this team period. The worst thing JVS could do is keep everything the same as before and expecting different results, it doesn’t work that way so he’s  rebuilding the team.

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No doubt, if JVS's managing starts to go pair shaped, he will start getting his as well. Thankfully we have a future plan b gaffa already, he is coaching Xanthi fc. Man, we got it good!

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Could be hard for some people to understand but for an established premier league player, playing for a national team like Greece these days won't add ANYTHING to his status. If he's ever about to make a transfer, he's gonna do it through his performance against Liverpool, Chelsea and co, and not because he is a member of a team that plays against Kosovo and Moldova.

 

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