Montreal_Thrillos Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Whats wrong with those people in greece? Y do they brawl it out at games? hOW COME North America doesnt have these problems? http://story.news.yahoo.com/news tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040118/sp_wl_afp/fbl_gre_hooligans_040118200447 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go:bekli Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 hOW COME North America doesnt have these problems My guess is that North Americans find it safer and more civilized to beat up their spouses, children, and the occasional defenseless bozo. As a result of which they go to the stadium cleansed from the urge to harm other spectators who, most importantly, might be capable of defending themselves. Of course, a powerful reason why there appears to be less violence is the North-Americans' ability to ignore the available evidence and delude themselves into believing whatever they wish to believe. E.g., I seem to remember that a fellow beat to death a much smaller guy during a hockey game. On behalf of Greek Greeks I can assure all and sundry that nothing similar has happened in Greece (at least during hockey games). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreal_Thrillos Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 dont mix spousal abuse with sports North amrica has 350 million people Grecee has like what 15 million? PS: spousal abuse and other type of abuse is a world wide thing not just N.A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go:bekli Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Well, According to the radio, following a hockey game two days ago, a father followed his athlete son, age 17, to the lockers and proceeded to beat the hell out of him. Would you like to classify that as sports related, family related, both, or neither? [ From Frederick_news_radio: It won't be a few minutes in a penalty box, but child abuse and second-degree assault charges for the father of a hockey player at Skate Frederick ice rink. Frederick police say an argument Sunday between 48-year-old Martin Agrella of Germantown and his 17-year-old son spilled over into the locker room, where Agrella reportedly punched and kicked him repeatedly. The youth's sister took him to Frederick Memorial Hospital] As for spousal abuse, it is convenient to classify it as a World-wide thing in the same way it would be convenient to remark that soccer related violence is a world wide phenomenon. Lastly, as rezili happens to be a Turkish word and Greeks banned even the Turkish coffee, we can conclude that Greeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreal_Thrillos Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 U mised the point I think lets compare Greek soccer: people go there and if there is a fan of the opposing team,, mix that with a couple of drinks.... all hell breaks loose, Why cause the other guy supports the team ? Isn't everyone entitled to free speech and his opinion ? No instead they have to beat the crap out of him for what reason >? WHat did the accomplish after this is done? actually this is a europe thing . North american sports: people mignle in with opposing fans . Rarely do fights among opposing fans? arguments yeah but not Fights!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsurfer Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 What about bombing of the opposite fans in the game Monopetroly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Protathlitis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Bravo Go Belki, your posts always impress I admit violence in Greek soccer and the whole of europe is a major problem and sometimes reaches the point of sickening: ie. Paok fans had banners slamming the national anthem and the olympic games. But if i was an american i wouldent worry about the state of morality and hellinism in Greece. America has what, the highest western murder rate in the world. racial disunity and hatred that rivals that of nazi germany in some cases, a hypocritic president who polices the world through terror in the name of fighting that very thing. An organisation like the CIA which had the nerve to back the fascist junta in Greece: something i will never forget. i think to compare the state of morality in the two countries, a good example is how each deals with immigrants which arrive at there shores: In greece although policy may be against immigration it was so beautiful to see the compassion of the ordinary greek inhabitants of an island who rushed with food and clothes to comfort these poor people. Whereas in the US immigrants from the south border are treated like dogs and are rounded up and shot by vigilanties It worries me to see a nation as young as America acting the way it does, interfering with the affairs of a country with such history like greece Nope i wouldent be concerned for greece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pao123 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 this is a big reason why greek football has been held back so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilmanrok Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Mate, it is not the American nation interfering with the affairs of other countries, it is the US Government. Focus on that before saying things like "a nation too young blah blah blah". There is NOTHING more stupid than a bunch of hooligans beating up each other for the sake of their clubs, wherever that happens, be it North America or Southern Europe. Except of course than a bunch of people killing another bunch of people for the sake of "their countries" (their masters that is). And for this, I seriously doubt the US is the only guilty part in the history of mankind. In fact, Greeks have been extremely efficient at this sport throughout their "rich history". Soccer, football, whaterver, has a broad tradition of hooliganism. That is a social, not a moral phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilmanrok Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Mate, compassion of the greeks towards refugees? Do you even live in Greece or do you come here for holidays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Protathlitis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 i live in Australia for part of the year and Greece for part and dont try and say to me that greeks lack compassion over refugees, because ive seen it with my own eyes both on the islands where whole villages rush out to help these people and in athens where boatloads of kurds are. in Greece compassion flows as easily as passion does. and ive also seen how people react in the US and Australia, in Australia the PM was elected soley beacuse he was opposed to immigration. Mate, it is not the American nation interfering with the affairs of other countries, it is the US Government. Focus on that before saying things like "a nation too young blah blah blah". When i critisise America obviously i cannot criticise the entire nation and all its people but unfortunatley i have to judge according to the actions of the Government (which was elected by the people), otherwise no nation would be accountable for the actions. Kilmarnok, i like most Greeks cringe in disgust when i see some of the things done by fans in Greece. Whats wrong with those people in greece? i dont care for things like that being said: remember your talking about the greatest nation on earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilmanrok Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Mate, what I don't care about is comparing nations. That "greatest nation in the world" is a fairy tail they force feed you at school, and that's all there is to it. They force feed it into american children too, the only difference is that american children have the resources to actually put to practice this whole elitist bullshit theory. And about the immigrants. Please, don't be ridiculous. Do you know how many immigrant workers have died trying to erect those stupid stadium for those blood stained Olympics? Of course you don't. They don't show that on TV, do they? Nooooo, it's bad for the Olympic spirit. And do you know how many Greeks have wept for them? Can you even consider the fact that immigrant women are treated at best as whores by the populace, or that people my age, university students, tomorrow's scientists for F***'s sake, consider immigrants as "really dirt, foul smelling and grotesque"? Have you not heard about the measures proposed in several greek islands forbiding immigrants to walk the streets after the sun goes down? Or perhaps you've missed the fact that immigrant children are treated as "less than Greeks". I'm sure you've never witnessed an operation clean-sweep where uzi-armed cops stop buses and drag dark-skinned people out. And let's not talk about the rise of neo-fascist politicians. Please. What you see on TV is not the real world. Get used to it. Considering the US people, they did NOT vote for G.W.Bush. Regardless of the fact that his election was a cheat, the vast (and I mean vast) majority of the US people do NOT vote for their leaders and a good percent of them are not eligible to vote at all. And what the heck does all this have to do with sports related violence? For crying out loud, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsurfer Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Go:bekli look what you have done with that sports related topic ...only in order to exhibit your passion for discussions... :rolleyes: thrillosmtl be welcome here.... in our forums....., we just wanted to have some fun you are right mate.....these are not good examples of the Greek fans in the stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOHNNY Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I know things have changes since I left Greece a few years back, with attendances falling due to the violence (HAS IT GOT MUCH WORSE?). But even then, I saw fights at virtually every game, no matter the size. Hell, if there were no visiting fans they would fight amongst themselves. I know this is not the ideal circumstances to enjoy watching soccer, but you at least knew what you were going into. The way I see it, the minority of soccer fans who are carrying out all this bullshit get it out of their system at matches. I have lived in a few countries, but have never felt safer walking the streets, drinking in bars or riding on buses, metro etc, than in Greece. I'd put up with a couple of 'risky' hours on a Sunday for the sake or the rest of the week anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Protathlitis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 don’t give me that bull#$2 Kilmarnok you think ive been force fed these beliefs, must have had some idiotis cram the crap your saying down your neck. It has nothing to do with elitism of course i don’t believe that a Greek is above any other. The reason why I referred to Greece's greatness is because of the comment "Whats wrong with those people in greece?" it was a distinctly familiar air of American arrogance and superiority, believe me ive heard this all before. I felt it necessary to remind everyone of what Greece has done for the world and why i believe it is the greatest nation on earth: this is a belief thats been forged through a fair bit of consideration amd contemplation. As for your comments on the treatment refugees in Greece: where did you hear this %$#$ from some socialist pamphlet. Ill admit there are problems with the way refugees are viewed and treated in Greece. You have greatly exaggerated this. No one can deny what ive seen with my own eyes which is one of the most touching things i have ever seen: a flow of compassion which is severely lacking is most of the rest of the west. "Stained olympic games" give me a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreal_Thrillos Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 let me re-phrase my question; We are not trashing greece as a country Y do they act like that at soccer stadiums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Protathlitis Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 In that case thrillosmtl, i dont have an answer to that. by the way i hope you can understand way i replied the way i did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreal_Thrillos Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 Protathlitis where are u from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go:bekli Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 There was a time when people went to the stadiums as individuals. All this changed starting in 1968 when Thyra 13 was founded and similar organizations of supporters were created. The organized supporters were certainly passionate but also, to a large extent and in my judgement, they were social misfits who knew little about the game and less about the history of their club. They had little respect for themselves and for anyone else. They were at the very beginning seen as a wonderful tool through which you would intimidate the opponents and the referees so that your team would emerge victorious it deserved it or not. And once team A had this weapon at its disposal, every other team needed its owncountervailing army. Beyond that, the organized supporters became private armies that would confer immunity to the teams and their owners. Thus we saw several crooks (as well as legoitimate businessmen) transform themselves overnight into owners-presidents of historic clubs. The long and the short is that the people who would go to the stadiums started falling into two categories: - a small minority would occupy the expensive seats, - the rest of the stadium would be divided between the organized, physically separated by whatever means were deemed necessary. The idea that families would go and watch games under these conditions became preposterous and eventually attendance fell. In short, there was a time, before 68, when you could go to watch soccer and meet real people. Violence was minimal to none. Now most go as parts of an army, ready to battle for dominance. And the available evidence (searches of busses when fans meet midway, e.g. Aris fans and OSFP fans one or two years ago when they met near Lamia and started throwing stones at each other) shows that some of them travel with their favorite drugs. This is, in my opinion, the root of the problem, and this is why I did not consider the initial comparison (why is there sport related violence in Greece but not in North America?) particularly apt. We could have as well wondered why there were Mafiosi in New York but never in Kryoneri! Note: This topic does not quite belong to the OSFP forum. Could some all-knowing/all-powerful administrator move it where it belongs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montreal_Thrillos Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 I live in Montreal Canada Hockey which is a religion here u dont see our fans going outside the starium with chairs,, flares,,, and stones ready to go at it with opposing fans, right before game time.. This problem is not as bad as in greece !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go:bekli Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilmanrok Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Mate, look, I don't want to start a fight with you or turn this to a political debate or something. But the fact is, I do not need to read these things in a socialist pamphlet. I live here. In Athens. I've lived here all my life. If you're really really interested in proof of what I said, PM me, I'll send you the links from nationwide newspapers (yes, they do mention things like that from time to time). By the way, last week alone, 2 immigrants died at the Olympics works and another one was brutally murdered by the Police at a random check. Oh, no need to mention that the media just swallowed it, do I? Now, what I have said does not mean that there are no people in Greece with compation and sympathy for the immigrants (a few of them you will be surprised to find out that actually are sick enough to read -- or write -- socialist pamphlets). But you have to understand that there is a very large amount of the population that is not like that. And that is a problem. And you can either go on about how great our nation is, or stand up and face the problem. Your choice. Don't worry, nobody will call you a commie. We don't do that in Greece anymore. We've anarchists and the evil evil americans to blame for everything now. Back to our topic. Go:bekli, there's another point in sports related violence. Brawling fans are hardly ever under the influence of alcohol. Also, an interesting fact is that the fans always manage to carry weird things like flares and flarepistols with them. Now, if the security was that loose in the US, with people carrying their own guns, can you imagine what would happen? Another thing. How much does a ticket for an average mid-season ticket cost in the US? I mean, do the lower classes attend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go:bekli Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 How much does a ticket for an average mid-season ticket cost in the US? I mean, do the lower classes attend? 1. Succesful professional teams in the US have sold everything to season ticket holders. Therefore, you cannot get a ticket regardless of price. 2. As the wait for the privilege of having season tickets can be as high as 30 years, you can imagine that the patrons are typically ready for the geriatric squad and are often accompanied by children and grand children. 3. The mentality overall is different. Let me plug a commercial here for the US (and Canada): My experience is that most Europeans think of the US as being a reasonably homogeneous place that can be understood in the same terms they understand their own country. It is not and as a result it cannot be perceived correctly (if any country can) by looking either at averages or anecdotal evidence. In particular, when it comes to sports at a high level, the league (a monopoly) is selling a product that it will protect at all costs. It is not likely to allow the referees (its employees) to be mau-maued by hooligans. It encourages family attendance because the attachment to a sport comes at an early age and today's kids are tomorrow's paying customers. And so on and so forth. The bottom line is that the US fan lives in a different environment than the Greek fan and his behavior reflects it. On the other hand, Greek soccer has driven away from the stadiums many people whose idea would be to watch the game and cheer their team not to throw objects, beat drums, or enter fights. Anyway, comparisons of things across the Atlantic do not seem to serve useful purposes and are not likely to solve any real or perceived problem (my opinion of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Protathlitis Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 In answer to your question Thrillosmtl, i was born in Crete but live in both Melbourne and Athens interchangably. Kilmarnok, i dont want to draw this out anymore either so ill just say this: I know greece has social problems but in comparison to the rest of the west im happy with the state of affairs and very proud of what Greece is right now. i spose the thing that set me off in this topic, i cant even remeber what it is anymore, was a percieved vibe of american self-rightiousness and arrogance. Anyway its good to be able to have a civillized topic. As for the violence, can the wise Go: Bekli give me a solution to this problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Anyway, comparisons of things across the Atlantic do not seem to serve useful purposes and are not likely to solve any real or perceived problem (my opinion of course). However, I would have to suggest, that comparisons and references would help other countries (like Greece) seeking a viable economic model to sustain sports ventures in their respective countries. Inevitably, again my thoughts, as economies and models cross over boundaries, elements and sustainable performance recipes will be adopted to the idiosyncracies of each individual environment. That includes Greece as well... The bottom line is that the US fan lives in a different environment than the Greek fan and his behavior reflects it. Very true... Another key factor (and correct me if I'm wrong) is the level of penalty imposed by the law enforcing system. Criminal prosecution and punishment deriving thereof are a great deterant in the US. In Greece, (as far as I know) it's more like a slap on the wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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