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Bad Season for PAO. What's ahead? Transfers?


athinaios

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This has been a really bad season, which shows that even with a decent roster a team can suck big time.

I wanted to open a thread to discuss what went wrong since last summer. We were unprepared to play in Europe, in either the CL or Europa. Then we were out of contention since Jan. Yes, I know there was an injustice in Karaiskaki, but even had we won, we'd be -4 points from gravroi.

So, what do you think about this season and of the future?

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This has been a really bad season, which shows that even with a decent roster a team can suck big time.

Yes, I know there was an injustice in Karaiskaki, but even had we won, we'd be -4 points from gravroi.

Hey mang,

2 points....

1-The best thing PAO can do is keep as much of the roster together and keep its coach. As with any team every year there needs to be a change here or there. They need to trade away Ninis. The longer he stays there the more negative fans can be. It would be best for him and for the club to part ways now. They also need to get rid of Katsouranis. Finally they need to show respect to Vyntra. The more they mistreat him publicly the worse off they will be. The other changes here and there as per usual.

2-The problem is not the injustice as you say in Karaiskaki. The goal should have counted. Most people, OSFP fans or not, agree with that. The problem is that the Greek higher ups in soccer always look to make the fans happy instead of creating stability. The instability needs to change.

Greek Clubs that have major unstable coaching, owner and player situations. In paranthesis which of the 2 is/are unstable. The egoismo of the owners screws things up

PAO (owners/management, coach)

OSFP (players, owners/management) (I am still not sold on Marinakis' plan)

AEK (owners/management and coach)

PAOK (coach, players) (sadly I think Zagorakis plan will fail)

Kavala (seems ok)

Bolos (seems ok) THe owner gets too personal sometimes)

Iraklis (owner/management)

Xanthi (coach and players)

Ergotelis (seems fine)

Aris (coach, players)

Kerkira (seems fine)

Panionios (seems fine)

Atromitos (seems fine)

Tripoli (owners/management and coach)

Larissa (unfortunate situation)

Serres (seems fine)

Notice the bigger clubs have more issues?

Notice that all the smaller clubs seem to have less issues?

Again this is my opinion.

The reason I state this is because PAO is not far of from a very dominant team. Yet the owners/management will screw things up because they are so unstable.

Besides Abramovic for Chelsea can you name any other owner in the EPL? Of course if you think about it you can.

Now let me ask you the same question about Greek soccer? I'm sure you can get some more names in your head faster.

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Very good points, Thrylos. I didn't understand why fans would be more negative if Ninis stayed. About the rest of the players, I agree with you.

Interesting that you point out the problems of the big teams. Big egos, bad decisions, and many incompetent people rule Greek football. The league has to be much more competitive, and, of course, much more honest and professional.

Regardless of PAO winning the derby, as I said here, Oly would still be the favorite to win the title. It showed more consistncy and that's what the championship is all about. But, often (too often) a team that's ahead by several points by Feb usually wins the title. Maybe sometimes there's one other team chasing.

And why only 2 teams have won the title so many times? I know the big 2 dominate but I wish Ergotelis (or another team) would possibly win one.

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This has been a really bad season, which shows that even with a decent roster a team can suck big time.

This is where I disagree with you and pao123. We do not have a strong squad, it's one of the worst squads we've had in recent years. We can't just look at talent, we need to consider what level the players are capable of playing at now. For instance, Karagounis is a paixtara talent wise, a Greek legend. What level is he now though? Same goes with Katsouranis, Seitaridis, etc.

We have to ask ourselves what sort of team should PAO have? We need a team capable of reaching the last 16 of the CL on a perenial basis and to win the league. So how many players do we have that would be good enough to achieve that? Bare in mind we're talking about the current ability of players, not the strengths they had in the past.

Good enough to keep: Cisse and ummm... :unsure:

Tzorvas - average by european standards

seitaridis - is finished

Spyropoulos - can't handle anyone running at him, he's been done time and again by anyone who can dribble. He's below average by European standards.

sarriegui - not good enough

Kante - decent in the greek league, by european standards he's below average.

boumsong - see the note on kante... but because i know many of you like him let's say he's good enough to stay too.

Marinos - young-ish at 23, wouldn't sell him because he's a squad player but will he honestly contribute much? no.

Simao - he was very promising but hasn't really developed much this season. I'd keep him too though

Vintra - by european standards? er no!

karagounis - is a legend but no longer has the legs

katsouranis - was fantastic, now he's unfit, lazy and ineffective. in his current condition (and by current i mean last 2 years) is he good enough? no

Karnezis - abysmal keeper

ioannidis - because of his age i'd keep him, but is he good enough to contribute to a league-winning-last-16-of-the-CL-team? No

Petropoulos - he's 28 and where would he be if not at PAO? OFI, enough said.

Govou - he's another that's bound to split opinion, at the beginning of the season i said he was downgrade on salpi, others said he was an upgrade. So in all honesty, if PAOK offered us a swap tomorrow how many of you would honestly prefer to keep Govou? The guy is way past his best and doesn't offer enough to PAO.

Leto - inconsistent, greedy and too dumb to be a top player for the club. sell him

luis garcia - <_<

Gilberto - a shadow of his former self. A great presence but def not the player he was last season and no longer has the energy levels to play for a last 16 CL team

Ninis - inconsistent but still young, let's say keep him.

Plessis - if he wasn't with PAO he'd be at Larisa

Cleyton - where do i even start with him?

Christodoulopoulos - has gone through phases where he's either very good or anonymous. The good phases have been too rare, but let's keep him.

So we are left with Cisse, Ninis, Tzorvas, Boumsong, Lazaros, Ioannidis, Marinos and Simao being good enough to be in the squad and with with only the first 4 of those being good enough to be in the starting 11. Hence we need to revamp this aging squad. Unfortunately, the last chance to do that effectively was this season. Next season UEFA's new regulations come into force which state that a club can only spend as much as it brings in. From the end of last season i was screaming that we needed to bring in fresh, young blood but instead we chose to stick with this "experienced" squad. Now we can't bring in 4-5 good players. Now we have to try and build with what's in the Greek league. We'll sign more average/below average players from the Greek league because of a couple of decent showings: Like Abdoun and Douglao (Kavala), Blanco (AEK), Toja (Aris), etc. <_<

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Getting rid of players like Ivansich, Cleyton, Bjarsmyr, Mantzios and Moon was quite dumb. If management are clueless about which players we need to keep or get rid of then don't expect any kind of real success. You don't get rid of a player like Ninis if you're serious, I mean, come on. Is that next?

I agree w/ a lot of what Euro listed...Kats definitely needs to go, he's been out of form for over a year. We can keep Kara but not always to start. Why did they get Seitaridis back? Just another example of not knowing how to run a team. I would keep Leto even though he often doesn't know when to pass the ball and when he does its not always on target. But he has enough good points. Xristo should stay. We need an entirely new defense. A couple of guys are okay, but okay is not good enough.

A major problem in Greece is favoritism, cliques and under the table payments. How the hell can you have a successful team if there is no collective agreement? Why did Pateras come and go, come and go, come and go? Why does a below average player like Vyntra start for us and the NT? Favoritism. Money. Don't expect much in the near future if this crap doesn't change.

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Ninis' talent will be wasted at PAO.

On other major teams in Europe he would have had a major role be now.

The Greek mentality is killing him.

PAO fans and management will turn on him and thigns will go sour.

Similar Fetfatzidis needs to leave Oly in a year or two. He is not ready like Ninis.

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A decent roster?

PAO's defence does not inspire confidence: I like Boumsong but no one else.

In goal, why did you EVER start Karnezis against AEK???

In the midfield, Karagounis has plenty of heart but has lost his hard shot and speed. Leto has his moments but is constantly tempting his opponents with his dirty play. Gilberto Silva has brain but has slowed down quite a bit.

Up front: Cisse is great but who ever thought of bringing Sidney Govou to Greece??? Ditto for Luis Garcia.

A major renovation is needed imho.

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Kara will probably be around for another year and come in as a sub. Gilberto is leaving, so is Cisse. Govou, Garcia should go to free up some $. Simao, Matos, Ninis, and a few others can make PAO into a good team for the Greek league.

There are lots of mediocre players but the key is the coach AND the general operation of the club to bring the best out of every player. The internal culture is very important for success in any organization.

Greek teams won't do well in Europe for a long time (and the gap is getting wider) so it's time to face this truth. Good players are not going to go to Greece--either they're too expensive for the shrinking Greek budgets or have heard about the crappy league.

The best would be to build a credible and competitive league.

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I agree w/ most everything here and its unfortunate because there was ALWAYS talent to come out of Greece. Its like what someone else mentiones in anothe thread, the Cl could look like an elitist league in the nar future.

I would like all the teams in Greece to be strong so there's real competition.

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I agree w/ most everything here and its unfortunate because there was ALWAYS talent to come out of Greece. Its like what someone else mentiones in anothe thread, the Cl could look like an elitist league in the nar future.

I would like all the teams in Greece to be strong so there's real competition.

Man how about that spelling
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someone said something about petropoulos being 28?

he is 25. three quarters of the superleague want him, he could start at any of the teams with exeption of the top three...for me his is not a starting striker for pao and probably wont ever be but i believe he is good coming off the bench or as a third back up striker....when he plays he shows he can be useful and is a good goalscorer...we need bench players as well as starters and i believe he is a good bench player and should stay...

look at his goal record for pao in accordance with his minutes played, it is actaully very good..

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someone said something about petropoulos being 28?

he is 25.  three quarters of the superleague want him, he could start at any of the teams with exeption of the top three...for me his is not a starting striker for pao and probably wont ever be but i believe he is good coming off the bench or as a third back up striker....when he plays he shows he can be useful and is a good goalscorer...we need bench players as well as starters and i believe he is a good bench player and should stay...

look at his goal record for pao in accordance with his minutes played, it is actaully very good..

Sorry, i had a quick glance at wikipedia and saw that he was born on the 28th and obviously mis-read it :rolleyes: Nonetheless, 25 is hardly young. He's pretty much at his peak.

As for getting into the starting line up of any team outside the top 3, i beg to differ. He's not better than Muslimovic or Lybe and so wouldn't get into at least 4 teams in the superleague. After that the teams become pretty evenly matched so it's hardly an achievement to say he would start for Olympiakos Volou for instance because they aren't necessarily better than Xanthi or Ergotelis for instance. That's why there's such a small gap between the play off spot and the relegation zone. Xanthi are 7 points off of relegation and just 6 off of the play offs.

But, Kavala's Onuwachi is better than Petropoulos. Aris don't really have an aerial forward and they've barely scored goals in the league this year, so this squad isn't really one to use as an example of a typical Aris squad because since December it has become significantly weaker. In other words, yes he'd probably get into Aris but only because Aris are particularly weak in that position. It would be like saying Sifakis is good enough to play for Arsenal just because Almunia is crap, but neither of them are good enough to be typically starting for a successful Arsenal team. Koke is def better than Petropoulous of course but he's a number 10 rather than a centre forward. Speaking of Olympiakos Volou, is he better than Nemeth? Not so sure and he sits on the bench at Volou!

So basically we end up with the conclusion that he'd probably get into the team ahead of Leal at Ergotelis, Ellington at Xanthi, etc. So what? Does that mean he's good enough for PAO? So I don't think it makes much difference to the point I made initially about him not being good enough for PAO. Olympiakos have Mirallas, Djebbour, Pantelic and Mitroglou. All 4 are better than Petropoulos, yet he's our 2nd choice striker.

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25? peak? den nomizw vre...kala eisai? striker dont usually hit their peak form until ages 26-29...cisse is 29 and has hit his peak form these last couple of years...david villa hit his peak form at 27 and is still riding it..you cant compare peak form, especially with strikers..every player is different...you have some weird views on football and age...the majority of players arent like messi who ride their great form from 22 and beyond...i dont know where you get these sorts of ideas from...look at all the good strikers that have existed

as i remember correctly both aek and paok wanted to sign petropoulos last summer, as did basically most of the rest of the super league...you can compare him to whoever you want, but the facts are that he was of interest to many superleague teams. he is a different player then onuwachi, koke, lybe, leal and ellington (who by the way doesnt play for xanthi anymore) the only player on your list that has comparable characteristics to petro is muslimovic, who is having a horrid season...and who by the way has only scored 1 goal this season with double the minutes of petro...nemeth? please dont make me laugh...he hasnt played compeititive football really.....ever...when have you seen him play really? in hungary?

the reason he is our second striker is bc we didnt sign anyone else, which was a mistake bc we needed a deeper bench with more options...he is a good option to have on the bench, especially if we need a target, big and tall striker...he fits with certain tactics and adds another dimension to the team...why not keep him as a 2/3 choice? buy another quick skillful forward, that can score and create, keep petro when we need height and have cisse as our number one? what exactly is wrong with that? the point is to have players on the bench that will help you adapt your style when the game calls for it...

i get the feeling that you just like to knock players...especially the greek ones and even the younger ones...oh wait i forgot, petropoulos at 25 is heading for retirement :D how many greek strikers are out there with his characteristics, age, potential and talent? not too many...

i guess you would rather see a team full of foreigners...is your name zajec or something?

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25? peak? den nomizw vre...kala eisai? striker dont usually hit their peak form until ages 26-29...cisse is 29 and has hit his peak form these last couple of years...david villa hit his peak form at 27 and is still riding it..you cant compare peak form, especially with strikers..every player is different...you have some weird views on football and age...the majority of players arent like messi who ride their great form from 22 and beyond...i dont know where you get these sorts of ideas from...look at all the good strikers that have existed

as  i remember correctly both aek and paok wanted to sign petropoulos last summer, as did basically most of the rest of the super league...you can compare him to whoever you want, but the facts are that he was of interest to many superleague teams. he is a different player then onuwachi, koke, lybe, leal and ellington (who by the way doesnt play for xanthi anymore) the only player on your list that has comparable characteristics to petro is muslimovic, who is having a horrid season...and who by the way has only scored 1 goal this season with double the minutes of petro...nemeth? please dont make me laugh...he hasnt played compeititive football really.....ever...when have you seen him play really? in hungary?

the reason he is our second striker is bc we didnt sign anyone else, which was a mistake bc we needed a deeper bench with more options...he is a good option to have on the bench, especially if we need a target, big and tall striker...he fits with certain tactics and adds another dimension to the team...why not keep him as a 2/3 choice? buy another quick skillful forward, that can score and create, keep petro when we need height and have cisse as our number one? what exactly is wrong with that? the point is to have players on the bench that will help you adapt your style when the game calls for it...

i get the feeling that you just like to knock players...especially the greek ones and even the younger ones...oh wait i forgot, petropoulos at 25 is heading for retirement  :D  how many greek strikers are out there with his characteristics, age, potential and talent? not too many...

i guess you would rather see a team full of foreigners...is your name zajec or something?

Firstly, I dont think one can use Cisse as an example of when a striker reaches his peak because of the injuries he's had. During what would have been his peak he had 2 horrendous injuries. These arguements are irrelevant anyway because I believe a striker is at his from 25-29 so we're only disagreeing by a year. I simply mean that by now he'd have entered his peak range by now. You're focussing on the factors that are irrelavant here though. You say his peak will start next year. Is he likely to improve by 200% by next year? Because if not he's not good enough to play for PAO, it's as simple as that.

Did PAOK and AEK put in formal bids? Because if not I remember Man Utd and Bayern wanted to sign Torosidis, but he wanted to stay at Olympiakos :LOL: Besides, AEK and PAOK are broke! AEK wanted Mantzios too so what's your point? It goes back to what I was saying about Aris in my last post. Just because someone is desperate in a certain position doesn't mean any random player is capable of playing at that club. Is Sifakis good enough to play for Arsenal? No, yet he's probably better than Almunia now. Perhaps he's good enough to get into the Arsenal team right now, but is he Arsenal material? No! Same with Petropoulos and AEK. They have no squad and no money so maybe he was an option, but is he AEK material? No. Compare Petropoulos to AEK's strikers over the last 10 years, does he measure up?

As for the other strikers having different characteristics to Petropoulos, that is exactly the point ;) They need an aerial striker but don't have the money so they look towards a cheap option. Almost like using a bandage to fix a gun shot wound, it's not ideal but better than nothing. So they'd use him but how important/successful would he be there? And please don't compare Petro to Musli, that's ridiculous. Petro isn't half the player Muslimovic is. It's not as simple as comparing goal tallies because PAO create alot more chances than PAOK. Also Musli has played the whole season with an abdomen injury. Playing through pain can significantly affect a player's output, look at Fernando Torres. In terms of ability Musli is MUCH better than Petropoulos and there isn't even an argument there.

I saw Nemeth play for Liverpool's reserves frequently, I also saw him at AEK last year where he was very good when he played. So you're right Nemeth hasn't done much in his career, but let me put it to you another way. What has Petropoulos done in his career to prove his better than Nemeth? The goals he scored at Ira the other day?

I wouldn't keep Petropoulos as a 2/3 choice because he simply isn't good enough! It's simple really. The standards you have are very low mate. It's not about knocking Greek players, when I was saying bringing Govou for Salpi was a mistake you were mocking me, look how that turned out. I rate players like Kyrgiakos, Salpi, Karagounis in his prime, Torosidis and Gekas very highly. Samaras is talented but inconsistent. The players i don't rate are Vyntra, Katsouranis (makes himself poor with his attitude), Avraam, Nikopolidis, Petropoulos, Seitaridis (anymore), Spyropoulos. That's a fair analysis and has nothing to do with me being against Greek players.

how many greek strikers are out there with his characteristics, age, potential and talent? not too many...

:blink: yes, that's why Petropoulos has been adorned with caps and international praise. Samaras, Lybe, Haristeas, Mitroglou and Mantzios are all better than Petropoulos and they are just the strikers that are aerially competant. Besides, Greece is hardly blessed with top class strikers right now, so again, using this as part of your argument forces me to go back to the Sifakis-Almunia example. Use Olympiakos' front 4 as an example, and remember that Derbyshire and Mitroglou still belong to them. That would make Petropoulos a 6th choice striker that. How are we going to compete with them over the course of a season. If Cisse gets injured or leaves they'd finish 20 points ahead of us, just because of that one issue alone.

One more quick question, is N'Doye not much better than Petropoulos?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ninis certainly has potential but to rebuild you need money and he's the one that is likely to bring us a good amount of money. To rebuild we'll need the money from selling at least 3 of Ninis, Katsouranis, Cisse and Leto. Katsouranis is highly rated which is great because by selling him we'd get income for a player that's finished. Leto is dangerous on his day but also mediocre most of the time. That leaves Ninis and Cisse and we must keep Cisse

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Ninis certainly has potential but to rebuild you need money and he's the one that is likely to bring us a good amount of money. To rebuild we'll need the money from selling at least 3 of Ninis, Katsouranis, Cisse and Leto. Katsouranis is highly rated which is great because by selling him we'd get income for a player that's finished. Leto is dangerous on his day but also mediocre most of the time. That leaves Ninis and Cisse and we must keep Cisse

I don't agree; I think there are many talented players out there who are underrated and are affordable. You don't have to spend gazillions of dollars on "stars" to put together a great cohesive unit. Selling Ninis would be foolish since he's one of our key guys (the whole team should be key) but Kats should go since he's been out of form for long enough now. And I thought Cisse was talking about wanting to leave?
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Cisse has since dropped hints that he might want to stay. Why is Ninis a key guy though, because he's young? If he was 29 and performed in the manner he has this season would you want him to stay? Probably not which means we'd essentially be keeping him because of his potential. Fine, but then ask yourself, do we have time on our side? Can we keep him for 4-5 years in the hope that he develops when we have such an aging team? You don't need gazillions necessarily but you can't build a team with peanuts either. We are not talking about trying to find one player here, it's not like we just need one diamond in the rough. We need to rebuild an aging and failing team. You need money for that, money that we don't have without selling players

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i got some time so...

to rebuild an aging team you need to keep your younger generation and add...players like ninis and lazaro should stay..its a shame ferreira doesnt like simao bc with the right coaching and the right kind of player paired with him in the middle he could have been a great player...

regardless, as i would VERY much like to see ninis leave for a european club , i would be unhappy to see him go..he hasnt fullfilled his potential at the club yet and the truth is he can stay for another year or two, he is only 21...this whole 'if he was 29' argument is silly. ela twra...these are thing you cannot compare..symfwnw me ton clover..keep nini unless someone comes in with an offer near his release clause...i wouldnt want to sell ninis to replace him with an equal foreign and older version (which would probably happen if we were to sell him)

sell govou, possibly simao (unless we switch mangangers bc with ferrieira i dont see him playing much) and katsourani, gilberto will be gone and possibly sell leto..thats if we have NO money in the bank. axe plessis and garcia which will save us over another million. if you dont sell kats, re negotiate his and karas contract to less than 1 mill..keep them both for the bench. bring back mattos (even though ive heard he doesnt want to come) and pick up another left footed midfielder that can go box to box but can help primarily in attack..if we get rid of leto we would need a left winger (even though ive liked lazaro and it looks like next season could be a good season for him if he stays fit. he plays much better on the left than in the middle or right and is much more of a team oriented player then leto) buy an andoun type player that can fit into a TEAM unit for the right...keep cisse and petro and add another quick forward to back cisse up and can maybe back up on the right wing. we need a deeper bench so we need to get the right players for the right prices. also, sell spyropoulo, pick up a left back and have ioannidis as a back up. buy another CB (2 if boumsong leaves, which we can prob get ok money for). we should jump on someone like douglao. cut sarriegi and keep kante for the bench. vyntra just renewed so he is going nowhere.

i think tzorva gets a bad rap and that he is a good gk, but he can probably bring in some good money and he wants to try his hand outside of greece. i wouldnt mind keeper switch, especially if we pick up someone like sifakis, who i believe is just as good and acouple years younger.

also, we need to get rid of this loan list weve been carying..manztios, melissis, gabriel/mattos, moon, bjarsmyr, dimoutsos. if they dont want to or dont fit into the team, get money, mb a good player exchange and move along. we are wasting money that we dont have paying for salaries of players who dont actually play for us.

cisse will probably stay on the conditions that we make the champions league and we sort out the management issues. that should be number one issue right now or else more setbacks and bad decisions will happen (like last summer) we desperately need someone to step up and take control for the good of the club..or we will end up in complete disaster..

also, im disapointed to hear that tasos lagos is on trial at leichester...i watched some of the ethniki youth matches and he looks to be a very good player, i dont know why we have a youth team if we dont transform that into the first team..we are letting one of our most talented academy players go. its time to invest more time into our youth development...it seems to be said every year but not much happens from the academy..

theres more, but im tired :D

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In the past i've explained why Ninis' value will drop if the stays at PAO, even if he does improve as a player. To make that point again quickly, let's say each player has a rating out of 100. 98 would be messi and ronaldo, 60 would be some guy that sits on the bench for a 2nd division greek team. Let's say that at 18 years old Ninis' rating would have been 77. Now he's 21 he might be 81 but within that 2 years his development has been slow compared to what it would have been at Man Utd. If he'd gone to Man Utd when he was 18 he wouldn't be an 81 now, he'd be an 85. So even if he improves at PAO over the next 3-4 years his monetary value will fall because his potential for growth would have diminished. If he's worth

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im not sure you read my post as i said i would sell tzorva, spyropoulo, simao, govou and possibly katsourani and/or leto...in addition to releasing garcia, figuring out a deal to loan or sell plessis (whos contracts together are over 1 million) and sarriegi decreasing kara and kats salaries get rid of all our players on loan. not to mention the amount of money we are saving from gilberto silvas contract which is close to 1.5 million, which can pay for 2 good salaries. not to mention selling seitaridis who we can collect 500.000 and getting rid of cleyton...we spend multiple millions, yes, millions, on players who are either out on loan, or we are unnecessarily carrying their contracts (manztio/cleyton/seitaridis). if you look up what we are paying for giourka, you will rip youe hair out. we are paying cleyton and manztios full contracts, in addition to the majority of mattos and gabriel. we also paying a good portion of the rest (moon, melissis, byarsmyr etc.) furthemore there are only three players on the squad worth real money.

this apprx 1-1.5 million in loan deals plus the 1.5 we'll be saving from sarriegi, garcia, plessis plus another 1.5 mill saving on gilberto. assuming we revamp their contracts, 500.000 from kara/kats contract. say we collect 1-1.5 million from tzorva, 2 million for simao and another 1 million between govou and spyropoulos. between all of these players ( i know some of the valuations are not correct but its a rough estimate) we will have 7-8 million..and this is just by making some smart little moves..if you factor in a big sale of leto and medium sale of kats , that amount will double. dont forget we are also about 15 or so million in debt. i wont be surprised, regardless of who we sell, if we sign alot of players as free agents. i dont see us spending alot on a single player, so the question isnt THAT much about selling alot of players, its about picking up the RIGHT buys for the RIGHT prices and contracts. the club has lost so much money each year off of stupid loans and bad dealing. selling our players probably wont reflect on our buying of players but more on the paying of debt. lets remember this all depends on the management situation. ideally i dont want to see either leto or nini go, but to give us any sort of budget for signings, one of them will have to. the only players that are worth REAL money on the squad are cisse, then leto and ninis and i guess i would rather see leto go

in my opinion we would realistically get around the same amount for both. your valuation of ninis although seems reasonable, is not always the way football works. ninis' valuation next year will probably around the same as it is this year, it will not change that much. also, valuation and what is offered are almost always different amounts and judging from our past in regards to players sales, we dont seem to have the best negotiating skills. if the money ist near his buy out, dont accept it.

i dont think anyone will be very happy with the signings that we make...there will be no big names, no big buys or contracts..the media will feed us big names but none of that will happen..we need to sign players that will form a team unit. i dont think we'll see anyone bought for over 1-2 million. we need to be smart in our purchases and without a technical director and judging from our history of these types of signings, its hard to be optimistic..i see us turning to buying SL players like blanco and abdoun. i wouldnt be dissapointed by these types of signings as long as there appears to be some sort of plan...we will see

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I did read your post but i think you're over looking a key issue here. Saving money on contracts doesn't mean much because that money will only be spent on the contracts of the new players. What about the money to pay the transfer fees to bring those players though? Unless you're suggesting we can rebuild the entire squad with free transfers which i'd have to strongly disagree with.

Also you say Gilberto's contract will go on one player's salary not two, unless we downgrade which defies the purpose. We need better players not worse players and better players usually demand a higher salary.

So while saying "the right buys at the right contracts" sounds nice, in reality it won't work. It never works! Finding one diamond in the rough maybe, 2 is amazing, you want us to rebuild a squad with free agents that will accept mediocre contracts and to make us Champions League quality? I guarantee you it won't happen.

I would be disappointed with players like Blanco and Abdoun. If they were signed along with 2-3 other very good players then fine but if all our signings are like them we'll up being like AEK. Their squad is filled with players that were good for lowly superleague teams: Jahic, Leonardo, Makos, Eder, Karambelas. It simply does not work! The league is not strong enough for us to raid the lesser teams and build a strong team from it. Because of that we NEED to sell some supposedly big players to make money and rebuild. Getting rid of the big contracts like Seitaridis is obviously a no brainer but Ninis and Leto need to go too because otherwise we'll finish 20 points behind Olympiakos next year. This is a poor and aging squad and good players need to come in, not cheap mediocre players.

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we will not replace gilberto with someone that will make 1.5 million. that wont happen, we dont have the economic security to do so. we wont do it and we frankly dont have the power to do it. that does not mean we have to downgrade. we can replace him with someone cheaper we just have to create a different plan. we will sign a player who will make 800,000 or a million for his position, thats just the way it is. im not talking about diamonds in the rough, im talking about players that will make a good TEAM together as a unit..there is a big difference. someone like mattos for instance. copenhagen are a good example and they were very successful this year in europe. i bet their budget is less than ours. even if we sell any of our big name players we will not spend alot of money in the offseason..its as simple as that, priorities lie elsewhere, like paying off our debt and being able to pay our players salaries for next year. as much as i dont want it to be true, unless someone steps in and takes control, we will have to make the right signings at the right price. the fact that you say that never works is confusing because thats actually how teams determine transfers, whether they are picking up the right player at the right price.

if you look at the grand scheme of things, saving money on contracts is almost as useful as making money off of sales. our payroll goes down, our spending ability goes up. im not saying 'i want to build a team with free agents' im just saying that that will probably happen as the first priority is not metagrafes at the moment. we have no money, we will not be making any gilberto/cisse type signings, even if we sell.

i dont understand exactly what you want to happen or where you think this offseason is going. as i have said, unless we get our shareholders to put in money or someone to take the team, nothing huge will be happening. money saved and made will not be focused only on reinvesting in transfers.

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