Fan stereotypes.

[trifilli]

Let's not ruin an interesting subject with insults and rivalries.

As someone born and raised within a short walk from "Leoforo ton oneiron", please allow me to give my input on the subject.

First of all let me start by saying that I have the out-most respect for fans that support a team due to ideological or regional allegiances.

Nothing more admirable than a fan of a local small club that goes out there and supports a team regardless of their trophy collection. Like an old English friend of mine used to say: "it is easy being a Liverpool fan!". Absolutely true. The purist fan is the one that supports their team even if they get relegated. Anyone can jump on the "band wagon" like millions that never watched football did, on that most beautiful night in Lisbon on the 4th of July 2004!!! From all those rushing in the streets to cheer the EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS, how many ever paid money to see Greece in an empty OAKA ? Our NT used to play in front of 15.000 fans...

Let me start from the "rebuilding of Athens" after WWII. The massive erection of those monstrosities called "polykatoikeies" was the beginning of the end for our once beautiful "neoclassical" capital. The influx of people from the countryside completely changed the demographics in Athens. It was then that the areas around Leoforos Alexandars became constructed and overpopulated. At the time these were considered desirable neighborhoods, because of their proximity to the center and the novelty of the apartment building that was something new and relatively luxurious, compared to the modest homes of pre war Athens. It is true that many professionals and middle class Athenians resided in those areas. Ampelokipoi, Pagrarti, Kypseli, Vas. Sofias, Leof. Kyfissias were all desirable areas. That is where the PAO fan base was located. Basically most residents living north of central Athens were PAO fans. That was a big clash with the neighborhoods of southern Athens (Kalithea, Nea Smyrnh) which were filled with refugees from Minor Asia. Further south where Athens borders Neo Faliro and the port of Pireas were far less desirable areas with some exceptions, like Pasalimani and Freatida. That is the base of Osfp fans. Therefore geographically speaking PAO was North, Panionios was South, Osfp at the port areas. AEK however had not claimed a specific area yet, except from parts in Nea Ionia, Neo Iraklio, Nea Filadelphia, all North west Athens. Also the Minor Asia refugees were usually Panionios, while the Kostantinoupoli natives AEK. Initially, the myth was that PAO fans were the well to do Athenians, but that was really mostly due to the location of the Leoforos Alexandras grounds. Osfp was representing the working class of the poor neighborhoods of southwestern Attiki. Drapetsona, Korydalos, Metaxourgio is where all the factories were, even prison...

This is not true anymore. First of all the once desirable areas around the PAO stadium are not popular anymore. Athens has grown so much that these areas are considered almost downtown. They are even in the traffic restricted zone called "daktilios". Most well to do Athenians have moved to the suburbs of Northen Athens. Halandri, Psychiko, Filothei, Maroussi, Agia Paraskeuh, Papagou, Kifissia is where the most desirable building codes are now. Also Pireas has changed. The once sparsely populated beach areas of Paleo Flaliro, Glyfada, Voula are now suburbs and nice ones too. Many osfp fans reside there. My point is that although there still is some truth to the stereotype that, PAO fans are "aristocrats", while OSFP are "workers", it is not so clear cut anymore. Plus many fans jump across these city boundaries, for purely random reasons. Many PAO fans are not in Athens, while Osfp has a good fan base even in the most unusual areas. AEK fans are not from Konstantinoupoli any more, many have chosen that team for personal reasons. I have to say however, that I believe there are very few AEK fans in the Osfp dominated areas, but many more in the PAO ones. Also more PAO fans in the Osfp areas that in the AEK areas. AEK is the team from Athens with the least amount of fans that come from specific areas. My impression is that women like AEK, girls PAO, while Osfp does not have a large female base. Obviously these are my personal observations in my dozens of years of football attendance. Last but not least I find AEK fans to be the least demanding, most forgiving, and best behaved of the three. Osfp are in the other end of that spectrum, however it is interesting, that they love personalities and individuals. PAO fans have a tradition of "teamwork spirit" rather than individual excellence or adoration. PAO has had many great defensive sides through the years, which account for much more success in European competition. Osfp has a flashier, more offensive minded character. Osfp fans are more extroverted and match well with Brazilians, while PAO more "cool" and have a good tradition with Argentinians and Northern Europeans. A new "fad" has developed recently with the flow of immigrants in the last few years. It seems like immigrants have a preference for Osfp. Unfortunately to point that out, a very small number of PAO hooligans, have taken the extreme opposite side and have formed allegiances with anarchist or right wing groups, from the nearby hotbed of local terrorism, "Eksarxeia".

The irony in the recent past is that the "workers" team has outspend both AEK and Panathinaikos combined, in investments and revenue. This only applies to football. PAO B.C. is an awesome organization, owned by two true PAO fans. The Giannakopoulos brothers, have brought nothing but glory and pride to PAO and Greek basketball altogether.

FOUR times EURO CHAMPIONS says it all !!! :nw:

PEACE

[AEK-MTL]

Wow, a very interesting analysis. I myself have never lived in Athens (have visited several times though) so I don't really have much knowledge about the regional divides within the city when it comes to supporting a specific team.

I had heard of the stereotype of PAO being the aristocrats while OSFP were the working man's team but obviously, these labels no longer hold. As you said, OSFP outspend both PAO and AEK and besides, there are many fans of these teams residing outside of Athens (both in Greece and abroad) and so these labels no longer apply.

One stereotype I had heard but wasn't sure if it was true or not was that the Salonika teams generally had "rougher" fans than the Athens clubs; with PAOK having the distinction of having the worse hooligans in the country. Was this ever true and if so, does it still hold or have the recent events (OSFP-PAO volleyball fight) changed that?

[DUDE]

Interesting topic indeed. I am some what of an anomaly as I dont really fit into any of these categories. I've never lived in Greece and am quite detached from the inter-Greek rivalry. Thats to say that I really do support ALL Greek and Cypriot teams. I would be just as comfortable sitting in Gate 13 as I would in Gate 7, while the first Greek game I went to was Arsenal vs PAOK!

I grew up in England, and not in an area where there were many Greeks, hence, at school I was the only Greek. So as you can imagine there was a big rivalry with my friends re: football. They would say s%$#! like "How bad was that pass? He must be Greek!", of course I'd retaliate by going off on one about their culture, i.e. "WOW that taste's like s%$#!, typical English cuisine!" :P Although most the time I'd retaliate by pointing out that thousands of English girls fly over to Greece every summer to cheat on their husbands with real Greek men :LOL: Anyway, point is I would obviously support ALL Greek teams in Europe so that I could have some leverage in this rivalry. I always seemed to have a slight affinity with Oly though because they would usually win the league and I expected big things in Europe.

Because of this you could class me as an Oly fan, and while I do have some banter with other PAO fans in reality I'm not as passionate about the derby as you guys, I just love it as a spectacle. For me, every game in Europe (especially against the English and the Turks) is a derby!

Anyway, point is I'm a different sort of fan to most Greeks, however, from my personal experience I've seen the politics is also mixed in football. PAO seem to be right-wing and Olympiakos left-wing. That may be because of the socio-economic situation of their typical fans, but its still an observation I've made. Also, I agree with Trifilli that AEK fans are the most well behaved, but imo, they are also the shittest fans. Sorry AEK fans but you barely chant!!! I chant more at a Tennis match than many Original 21 fans do at football!! This maybe because Demi has cracked down on them and banned many who were very passionate, I dont know.

This is a growing trend though. As Trifilli says, many fans now live in different parts of the city and the growing Western/British/American influence in Greece has meant that many people changing. This coincides with the fact that many Greek fans are turning shitter, sorry but its true. I also think hooliganism is a bad thing but the passion of the ultras is unparalled and that is what I'm sad to say dying. When I go to a match I chant, jump, move, etc, with everything I've got for more than 90 mins. I'm literally exhausted and lose my voice after every game. If I'm with the ultras I fit in, whereas in other parts of the stadium (i.e. anywhere except Gate 7, Gate 13, Gate 3, 4, 21, etc) I get funny looks. This didnt happen 10 years ago. Point is it appears to me that as fans lose their stereotypes they are also losing the passion. In 15 years these stereotypes will be well and truly gone and with that will go the passion; and our stadiums will resemble those of the Premiership where the real football fans won't be able to afford to go to the games.

[Athens4]

My first ever game was Arsenal vs PAOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deicide]

Very interesting statement/observations!

Personally, I'm in a more or less similar situation as DUDE.

I keep my thumbs crossed for every Greek team in European competition. Although I have to admit that I usually make fun of Olympiakos after another bad loss.

But the reason for wanting the Greek teams to advance in an international cup is obvious: I've never lived in Greece either, i.e. I have never experienced those direct rivalries longer than a few days in spring/summer or a few hours at the stadium.

Nevertheless, I can understand why e.g. a PAO Fan wants Olympiakos to lose all time - even in the CL.

As an Austria Salzburg supporter, I never wanted Rapid Vienna to win against a foreign team either. It's another situation and another kind of rivalry....

Stereotypes like "PAO = aristrocrats, Olympiakos = workers" are obviously not correct anymore. Many big groups of fans who are said to be aristocrats, turned into "mixed audiences" of workers, students. The "working audiences" may have been transformed into such a "mixed audience" too. Another example from Austria: Austria Vienna has always been said to be a "less working class club" than Rapid Vienna. But actually, I do not see a difference concerning the audiences' social status (although both groups would not admit that... ;)).

And yes, I think that the Salonika crowds are the toughest. ;-)

Another stereotype? Probably...

Best regards,

an Autrian-Greek-PAok supporter