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And another http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html?_r=0 from Paul Krugman. Some snippets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It has been obvious for some time that the creation of the euro was a terrible mistake. Europe never had the preconditions for a successful single currency ? above all, the kind of fiscal and banking union that, for example, ensures that when a housing bubble in Florida bursts, Washington automatically protects seniors against any threat to their medical care or their bank deposits. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greece should vote ?no,? and the Greek government should be ready, if necessary, to leave the euro. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And this collapse, in turn, had a lot to do with the euro, which trapped Greece in an economic straitjacket. Cases of successful austerity, in which countries rein in deficits without bringing on a depression, typically involve large currency devaluations that make their exports more competitive. This is what happened, for example, in Canada in the 1990s, and to an important extent it?s what happened in Iceland more recently. But Greece, without its own currency, didn?t have that option. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is, and presumably was intended to be, an offer Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, can?t accept, because it would destroy his political reason for being. The purpose must therefore be to drive him from office, which will probably happen if Greek voters fear confrontation with the troika enough to vote yes next week. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So it?s time to put an end to this unthinkability. Otherwise Greece will face endless austerity, and a depression with no hint of an end.

Good article http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/29/joseph-stiglitz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum from Joseph Stiglitz. Some snippets. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course, the economics behind the programme that the ?troika? (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25% decline in the country?s GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece?s rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60%. It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe?s leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5% of GDP by 2018. Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece?s debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika?s target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors ? including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries? banking systems. The IMF and the other ?official? creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That concern for popular legitimacy is incompatible with the politics of the eurozone, which was never a very democratic project. Most of its members? governments did not seek their people?s approval to turn over their monetary sovereignty to the ECB. When Sweden?s did, Swedes said no. They understood that unemployment would rise if the country?s monetary policy were set by a central bank that focused single-mindedly on inflation (and also that there would be insufficient attention to financial stability). The economy would suffer, because the economic model underlying the eurozone was predicated on power relationships that disadvantaged workers. It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on 5 July. Neither alternative ? approval or rejection of the troika?s terms ? will be easy, and both carry huge risks. A yes vote would mean depression almost without end. Perhaps a depleted country ? one that has sold off all of its assets, and whose bright young people have emigrated ? might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shrivelled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that. By contrast, a no vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.

2015 should be a promising season for the Houston Astros. Last year the team made improvements and avoided another 100 loss season. We got a couple of veteran hitters who should beef up our offense in Gattis and Rasmus. We get some pitching and added a closer that was desperately needed. I think they will surprise very many people.

It was and he was getting burnt all day against Olympiakos. This is gonna be the first time in years where we have two wing backs that can cross the ball B).

Giovanni is 99% signed and he's considered one of the three best left backs in Brazil.

I think we agree that the debt has to be reduced (haircut) if Greece has a chance of economic growth. However, as I often say, let me pay off the entire Greek debt. Poof. It's gone. Now, how many of you think that without any meaningful reforms, Greece will accumulate another huge debt..... This is the crux of the matter. In my estimate, the corruption is so deep that only an outside force could make Greece reform its political & economic system. We all agree that governments have been irresponsible and corrupt. But how about the people? Almost everyone has milked the system one way or another. OK, I also agree, if a system is so corrupt, it's a total mess you can't escape it...

In the video clip above, Stephen Haseler (the third guest) makes the most sense to me. Europe has to write off about $50 billion of Greek debt right away--more if Greece behaves-- so the Greek economy has a chance to repay past lenders and grow at the same time. This is provided they want to keep Greece in the eurozone. Secondly, the stupid austerity (indeed, conservative) economic policies by those currently in charge of the European finances, and IMF, must stop. In order to get out of a slump austerity isn't the way. But, the way out has to be prudent, that is economic policies that create jobs and commercial activities, and other measures that help stability in society. A smart rescue plan, in my opinion, would be based on: "haircut" of debt; demands from meaningful state reforms in Greece; repayment tied to economic growth (both parties would have an interest in growing the Greek economy, and the more growth the more repayments of debt). My sense is that the lenders want to punish Greece which has cheated, lied, and wasted tons of borrowed money in the past. Of course, there's no trust in Greek governments. Some of the suggestions of Greece were, give us money now and at some point in the future we'll fix the ills of our system. The reply is, no. There's no mutual trust. Sometimes it helps to examine an issue from someone else's point of view. Let's say it was Turkey (or Fyrom) in Greece's position, and Greece was like Iceland or Holland, etc. What do you think Greeks would be saying today regarding Turkey's mismanagement?.... PS. Yes, the Euros don't like SYRIZA. They say, look, your Greek governments signed loans, under rather great terms, and now Syriza/Chipras get elected basically saying they won't recognize the country's obligations. If you weren't Greek, could you be agreeing?

@js1000 the australian economy and socio economic structure can't be compared to the Chinese... there is nothing inhumane about the government not giving me a pension after 40-45 years of work... the government has provided me and my parents a fertile system that has enabled me to benefit and I don't need a $400pw handout...when I can earn a lot more through my hard work and investments.. @jvc its all well and good to say we have massive tourism and strong shipping industry...agriculture that we can grow and possibly untapped resources... however.....we don;t have the political will to exploit or harness any of this....for all this to work we need to educate the public that the system does not owe you a living...and a free ride..the entitlement and job for life mentality has to end...pensions are at 67....regardless of EZ.TROIKA.MERKEL..

You have shown that the only worthless person in this debate is you with your continuous abuse and downright people like you disgust me. You are incapable of any kind of reasoned debate. All you do is constantly abuse hiding behind your keyboard you silly child. Why don't you go and tell some of these "worthless" people what you think of them to their faces.

My goodness, this is utterly ridiculous. Not only it's too technical for most people to understand, but it's not clear of what the voters are asked. It shows amateurs--and that's the Greek government--playing with fire in my opinion. Wow. Rather irresponsible too to do it at this point. Also, since there are ongoing negotiations (in the last couple days, the US and Europe said there are other options available) and possible developments, plus other factors (ie. missing the payment to the IMF tomorrow and the implications of it), this is a terrible referendum. It'll backfire on the government, and because this move was without good planning, it's reckless... Already the law of unintended consequences is playing out.... tsk. PM Chipras seems unwilling to do what he was elected (and campaigned on) to do, that is negotiate better terms or declare bankruptcy and leave the euro and the European union. By the way, elections were the referendum 5 months ago. What's happening today, should have happened shortly after those elections (I'm not talking about the referendum), instead of squandering 5 months of "negotiations." On the other hand, the "troika" may have asked for some reasonable measures (reforming Greek law, taxes, transparency, etc), but its stupid severe austerity policies have made things much worse. They share a big part of this mess today.

No one knows for certain what the ramifications will be of choosing option A over option B. Economists can't predict more than 12 months ahead, if that, and if you get 10 economists in a room, you'll probably get 11 opinions.However, what I do know for certain is the following :- - having control of your own currency and having the ability to set your own interest rates can only be a good thing. - most economists outside the EU think Greece is better off in the long run because of this. - most economists outside the EU think the EU is terribly inflexible, bordering on incompetent. - most economists outside the EU find the idea of Greece paying the debts farcicle. - if Greece stops using the Euro the next 5 years will be very bad. - if Greece has a a devalued currency, our exports will grow and imports decrease. - if Greece stops using the Euro the EU is s%$#! scared (and I mean terrified) that if they manage to stabilise their economy, others could follow one day. This is key and is why Germany doesn't want a Grexit. - I hate trying to type on an ipad mini with its brain dead auto correction. The key is having control of your currency. Without that, you have nothing.

The Chinese economy is also doing very well, its one of the strongest, that's been achieved on the back of sweat shops, appalling wages and zero pensions, I'm not sure how happy Chinese workers are that their country has such a strong economy. I think its outrageous really 40 years work and no pension, they get away with it because people accept it. applaud it even. With the amount of wastage in the EU you can forget lower taxes, they need funds to continue with their incompetent and corrupt ways. What future have future generations got in Greece if they continue this path? the EU demands i hear people say are reasonable, well suppose Greece accepts them it will be further indebted and what happens 2-3 months down the line? Greece will need another tranche of cash from Europe which will come with further 'reasonable' demands and on and on it will keep going, that's no future.

if you're right and people vote for the short term implications for their pockets then they'll vote to go with the EU proposals because any exit will cause a lot of short term hardship, which in my view is well worth it. Seems that you're saying people are too stupid to vote, its a view shared by the EU commissioners who changed the new EU constitution into the Lisbon 'treaty' (which was pretty much identical to the constitution) when dutch and french voters voted no and made the Irish vote again when they rejected it because they'd voted 'wrongly' You pay a lot of taxes your retirement day gets put further and further back and you're fine with it? why? why should your pension be downsized what have you personally done to deserve that? to me thats a liberty not something i'd be 'fine' with while the EU doesn't even know where its spent a huge chunk of its money. They get away with it because people just shrug their shoulders and say 'its just how it is' lets have some accountability from those running the EU with a breakdown of their spending and some auditing before they dare to go anywhere near my pension. Retirement ages rise and we wonder why youth unemployment is so high. what's wrong with running your own affairs and being democratic? I don't see this as a left/right capitalist/communist debate, SYRIZA (i believe, but could be wrong) got elected not because they are 'lefties' but because they were the only party prepared to stand up to the EU and their demands to impoverish greeks. If SYRIZA didn't exist and a right leaning party were prepared to leave the EU (or refuse to be dictated to by them) i'm sure they'd have been elected.

Exactly my thinking as well js1000. Its time for another big OXI, like the one delivered by Metaxas back in 1940. Someone with balls to stand up to these corrupt bankers and eurocrats and tell them to shove it. OXI to your austerity measures that are doing more damage to the economy then good, OXI to your crooked loans that are going to the bankers to recoup the money they lost from all the p*****es they did instead of going to the suffering populace. In essence they need to regain their soverignty, control their own destiny instead of having others control it for them. They need to jail the bankers and corrupt politicans that are responsible for the country getting to this terrible state just like Iceland jailed their bankers. This will be the first real step on the road to change, making those who are responsible pay for their actions. Once they are free from the shackles of the IMF & the EU the rebuliding of this great nation can begin. You need a massive overhaul of the system of governance in Greece as well as an overhaul of the mentality of the people- the good times are over, they need to realize that they have to change their mindset about taxes and about wanting to get something for nothing. Awesome speech by the great

Yes we will and he is correct as that is exactly what this is. The NWO bankers are cutting off funds, forcing the banks to shut down to institute panic and fear in the general public. Tsipras called their bluff and now they are pissed so they are using the age old tactic of fear to get people to vote in favour of new deal and keep Greece aboard the S.S. Titantic Europa. This shows how easy malleable humans are, you get can them to do or believe anything you want just by using something as simple as fear.

please accept my apologies for all the 'guff' i wrote, but your question was so utterly pathetic and pointless it really didn't deserve a response. Well Greece can't continue on the same path, if they do then creditors will plunder every resource/asset Greece has got and continue to impoverish its people, they have to take the route Iceland took, by declaring bankruptcy and making their own laws without outside interference and having their own currency they can start to grow their economy slowly, short term pain long term gain.

It is not a cop out. They won on a mandate to reduce austerity. They then entered the 'negotiations' which turned out to be nothing more then the euro group dictating what Greece must do. Faced with that he goes back to the people any says they refuse to agree to reducing the austerity they want to continue with this financial small minded and pigheaded cruelty do you want me to agree to more of this same crap or shall we together tell them where to go. He is reinforcing the countries views and in a way strengthening his hand. I'm not left wing by inclination but syriza and Tsipras is a w Come change to the usual two dynasties with their cronies who have ruled Greece badly for decades.

Tsipras had a mandate from the people to challenge the austerity measures implemented by the troika etc and meekly accepted by the previous governments in Greece. The fact is the measures were too severe and were strangling the country creating a great deal of poverty and suffering to mostly the sections of the population who did not cause the problem in the first place. Take away all the financial buzz words and other financial jargon and a trained monkey can see that pruning a tree too much kills it or at the very least makes it grow very slowly. The measures forced upon Greece are too severe and killing the patient. I don't think anyone can dispute that the Greek economy and tax collecting needs reforming but this will not be accomplished by destroying the country. It was not Tsipras or syriza who caused this situation it was the previous governments and the people of the middle class upwards who refused to pay their taxes. Tsipras has been negotiating for weeks now and to all intents and purposes has not received anything. He has finally been backed into a corner by the Europeans who have refused to budge so if he accepted the proposals he would have been going against the mandate given to him by the electorate. So he is going back to the people and saying I have not been able to reach an agreement which would reduce austerity so I need to speak with you again, ask your opinion. Don't forget he is in a coalition politics is a tinderbox there at the moment. Social cohesion must be maintained as much as possible. The Europeans want to continue kicking the tin can down the road instead of providing a plan which will allow Greece to grow and therefore better make the financial repayments. The country is not going to pay anything back if all the economy implodes, all the trained and young people go and work in other countries! As for Greeks being liars and crooks etc. they are no worse then anyone else. Unfortunately they are not as good as some in hiding it. Historically and in the present there are many examples of crooked and lying going on around the world. If fact there is so much that I do not think anyone needs to provide examples. We could all draw up a list of our own.