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SL–R25: PAOK - AEK (11 Mar 18, 19:30 EET)

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14 minutes ago, jvc said:

That's mindboggling I agree.

tbh i think Savvidis got off lightly

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3 hours ago, Alphonse said:

Your president was present on the field with a gun and threatening people, I would put all bets if it was the other way around you would be very vocal on how unacceptable this is and no chance in hell of you going out to play the rest of the match. You need to be alittle reasonable, saying one team chickened out when you would have been 110% fine with it if it was PAOK shows the bias in your post sorry to say.

This is a lie my friend. You either didn't see the game or you are just unable to understand what you see.

PAOK scored a goal, the ref showed sentra, PAOK players and everyone was celebrating a goal that would bring us in first place again and then AEK started complaining to the refs. AEK's bench plus players. To all the refs. 4th ref, sideline ref, actual ref. And the ref called it offside. Then Savvidis stormed in to get his team out of the field. He didn't threaten the ref, nor anyone else. AEK's people then yelled at him and he ran over there but without doing anything. And all his bodyguards touched no one. There only concern was to keep Savvidis safe. Savvidis entered the field to get his team off the field.

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3 hours ago, Alphonse said:

Your president was present on the field with a gun and threatening people, I would put all bets if it was the other way around you would be very vocal on how unacceptable this is and no chance in hell of you going out to play the rest of the match. You need to be alittle reasonable, saying one team chickened out when you would have been 110% fine with it if it was PAOK shows the bias in your post sorry to say.

Do we actually have evidence that he was really threatening people? From the telecast, I saw him yelling like a maniac for sure, but his gestures and tone looked no more aggressive than the AEK players surrounding the ref. Based on that, are we then allowed to draw the conclusion that the AEK players threatened the ref?

The gun is circumstantial. That is he happened to have a gun on him, while he went on his tirade. Unless he trotted around saying "listen people, I have a gun in my holster and I know how to use it", then what's the basis of him threatening people with it. Also, does he speak fluent enough Greek for people to even understand what he's saying on the pitch?

Lastly, the only people to say they feel threatened are those who have the most to gain from Savvidis' loss of composure. So from what I see is Savvidis crossed a huge line, and AEK made sure to milk it for as much as possible. You're right, PAOK may have done the same in a similar situation.

But then again, it's very possible that AEK's upper management would have had similar reactions if AEK had gone through a three week stretch like PAOK did as well. AEK's players lost their s%$#! for a goal they thought was offside when they hadn't even seen a replay. Imagine their reaction had a ref flip flopped the decision on them like he did to PAOK. There's another thing to add to your list of problems with Greece. Players losing their s%$#! at every refereeing decision that goes against them.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

JVC I didn't state that it was acceptable nor a non punishable offence. In am curious to know what Amorgos (and the rest of the glorious angel aektzides) thinks  WHY Savvidis would do such an act?

 

Pretty simple reason why, due to the offside call - or is there another reason you believe? 

Ok seen your reason after. 

Edited by Alphonse

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57 minutes ago, Alphonse said:

Pretty simple reason why, due to the offside call - or is there another reason you believe? 

Ok seen your reason after. 

The point is, punish everyone that deserves punishing.  Apparently this is a difficult concept to grasp ?  The greek mentality.  Who me ?  Ego ?  I didn't do dem nuffin sirs.

Punish Savvidis, punish PAOK if that's what seems fair to you.

Punish Olympiakos ?  Didn't happen.  Punish Mirallas for inciting the crowd ?  Room goes quiet.

Punish AEK players/bench for storming the referee ?  Room goes quiet again.

Punish the referees for poor/incorrect decisions and changing (lying) on their match reports.  Room goes quiet again.

Lots of guilty parties.  Only PAOK got punished.

Only PAOK is guilty.  Enjoy the paper title.  As for the Cup Final it will be a fiasco.  Based on AEK's players reactions, our best chance of winning is storming the referee until he caves.  It worked for you guys.

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12 hours ago, Soprano76 said:

Ok so, to my PAOK friends here, what do you all think would have been an acceptable solution/punishment as a response to Savvidis' actions in the AEK-PAOK game? Just curious.

acceptable solution? I'm afraid there isn't one. we are talking about a pretty complex issue dealing with feelings of victimisation and conspiracy from our end and superiority and victimisation from the Athenian end.

acceptable punishment? I would have been ok with anything up to a 5 year ban from any match day participation from Savvidis. The bench mark needs to be set for behaviour and I'm ok if we are used as the original scapegoat as long as all punishments from here use this as the precedent for all decisions.

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9 hours ago, Alphonse said:

Pesta

Αχ, ποσο ωραία συνεργάζονται τα συνεταιράκια!

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Our appeal against the Superleague punishment for the PAOK - AEK game will be heard on April 11, 2018 by the EPO court of appeals.

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Today is PAOK's appeal for the original fines concerning this game.. The hearing is still going on as I write this (around 11 pm in Greece) and PAOK introduced a video showing that AEK refused to return to the field to finish the game. 

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If its the video I've seen it really exposes aek's claim of being 'frightened'. All the players and staff are chatting and laughing away.

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At best we would get the -3 points back.  Either way we got ripped.  Great outcome for both Olympiakos and AEK this season at Toumba.  If we are smart we will learn from their tactics and get someone from Hollywood to train our players in preparation from next season.

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Φυσικά και δεν τρομοκρατήθηκε κανένας. Όπως και ποτέ δεν υπήρξε τραυματισμός του Γκαρσία. Τα όλα σκηνικά ήταν πολύ ωραία στημένα κόλπα των Αθηνών. Κι εμείς σαν γνωστοί φελοί πέσαμε μέσα και χάσαμε το πρωτάθλημα. Τώρα τι να αποδείξεις και σε ποιον; Όλοι ξέρουν την αλήθεια. ΑΕΚ και Ολυμπιακός πήγαν τα παιχνίδια εκεί που μπορούσαν να τα πάρουν και κατάφεραν να σηκώσουν παληκαρίσια το πρωτάθλημα. Μπράβο τους!

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

If its the video I've seen it really exposes aek's claim of being 'frightened'. All the players and staff are chatting and laughing away.

Who cares,  what logic is this? Baltics? At the end of the day Savage Savidis entered the pitch,   and confronted the officials,  and the gun only adds to the guilt.  Even without a gun that's heavy punishment....and we're not going by Turkey Baltics standards here.   The players can sing and dance all they want....Savage Savidis is to blame for losing his cool....and I don't want to hear your poor excuses on why.   TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS!!!

Edited by jvc

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Savvidis already did! He apologized and accepted the 3-year punishment.

When will the refs do that for lying on match reports and refusing to appear before the judge. Also when will AEK people come out and say that they are happy to win the title on paper.

The original verdict will not change in my opinion. The decision is more political than sports related. At best they might reduce the Savvidis punishment from 3 years to 1 year and perhaps eliminate the games without fans even though we will serve at least two of those games before the decision is handed out.

Having said that, the best result of this circus from the past two months is to further expose the slime and corruption in Greek football/society.  Also the refs responsible for this mess are probably banished from officiating, although with the Greek mentality you never know. 

Finally I hope that by now Savvidis has learned not to trust and make deals with slimy backstabbers such as Melissanidis, Alafouzos and drug dealers. He should also stop any help (financial or otherwise) to run the Superleague.

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Posted (edited)

@jvc as Blackhawk stated, Savvidis has taken responsibility and apologized. I have stated in all my previous posts that what he did was wrong and that he should get punished. Heck i even said that PAOK's punishment is just.

Why i posted was because AEK and all aektzides jumped on the hysteria of social media and the news (which sensationalizes everything) saying that AEK were petrified of re-entering the pitch. Well watch the video that has surfaced and you can clearly see the bunch of them taking selfies and laughing away. I don't see why I can't bring this point up?? I don't personally think this will change anything in the courts but hey why not negate AEK's claim of being petrified.

What some people also don't understand is that the events of the PAOK-AEK match is going through the court. The court is a tribunal to judge/adjudicate what happened in accordance to the rule of the law. Laws have thousands of sections & subsections & clauses & parts etc etc which can be open to interpretation and some parts can negate other parts. Hence why you need a lawyer. The chains of events that night in Toumba were ALL part of the ecosystem and every single part needs to be examined. It is just reality of what happens in every court case. Judges can't just judge a whole hearing/case by what is being circulated by memes on social media or by a sensationalized news heading. 

AGAIN I AM NOT stating that PAOK goes unpunished but other infringements regardless how minor should not go unpunished regardless if you believe that the scale of those incidents do not match up with your hysterical view of what happened. At the very least all events that occurred should not go unnoticed so that measures can be put in place so they don't reoccur again. 

 

 

Edited by SydneyPAOK

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"Savage Savidis"

Haha...Are you a Journalist? If so i assume you specialise in Sensationalism?

PAOK now has the money and clout to defend it's self.  You poked the bear too many times .. Don't blame us for having the audacity to fight against this corrupt system. At least we have the balls to fight back!

To me it's obvious that this is nothing to do with trying to get Savidis 'off the hook'? It's to prove that there was no fear and that the AEK players, officials and the referee have lied and manipulated the rules to have a game abandoned so that they had the chance to win a title by a technicality in a court room.. PAOK were cruising to the title until Olympiakos decide that they had no intention of playing the game. Savidis had a massive error of judgment, an error which AEK jumped on.

Imagine looking back on the season you won a title and reminiscing of the court case that you won it in????? reminiscing about the judges name rather than a goal scorer???? 

Its embarrassing and pretty shameful.  when you actually thing about it, it's mental!!

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I've refrained from commenting on this subject for a while because as a neutral I tend to see things objectively and don't look at it from any team fan's perspective but I have to say : AEK (if they win the title) didn't win it on paper...its a case of PAOK losing the title on paper which is different. 2 games needed to be played and completed but weren't....the game against oly never started because a fan threw an object and hit the coach (regardless of theatrics that can't be allowed even if I think Garcia and oly are chickens#!ts) and in the game against AEK, Savvides invaded the pitch and pulled his team out....whether he threatened anyone or not, he stopped the game....a stupid, impetuous move that cost you the title. PAOK gave the opposition the opportunity and they took advantage of it. The rest of the circus show is just that, a circus show being played out by the media. Even if rulings are overturned it still doesn't take away the fact that it was the actions of Savvides and the paper throwing idiot that cost you the title and not the actions of anyone else. This is what should be addressed by PAOK.

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34 minutes ago, AchillesHeel said:

I've refrained from commenting on this subject for a while because as a neutral I tend to see things objectively and don't look at it from any team fan's perspective but I have to say : AEK (if they win the title) didn't win it on paper...its a case of PAOK losing the title on paper which is different. 2 games needed to be played and completed but weren't....the game against oly never started because a fan threw an object and hit the coach (regardless of theatrics that can't be allowed even if I think Garcia and oly are chickens#!ts) and in the game against AEK, Savvides invaded the pitch and pulled his team out....whether he threatened anyone or not, he stopped the game....a stupid, impetuous move that cost you the title. PAOK gave the opposition the opportunity and they took advantage of it. The rest of the circus show is just that, a circus show being played out by the media. Even if rulings are overturned it still doesn't take away the fact that it was the actions of Savvides and the paper throwing idiot that cost you the title and not the actions of anyone else. This is what should be addressed by PAOK.

Amen brother!

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14 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

I've refrained from commenting on this subject for a while because as a neutral I tend to see things objectively and don't look at it from any team fan's perspective but I have to say : AEK (if they win the title) didn't win it on paper...its a case of PAOK losing the title on paper which is different. 2 games needed to be played and completed but weren't....the game against oly never started because a fan threw an object and hit the coach (regardless of theatrics that can't be allowed even if I think Garcia and oly are chickens#!ts) and in the game against AEK, Savvides invaded the pitch and pulled his team out....whether he threatened anyone or not, he stopped the game....a stupid, impetuous move that cost you the title. PAOK gave the opposition the opportunity and they took advantage of it. The rest of the circus show is just that, a circus show being played out by the media. Even if rulings are overturned it still doesn't take away the fact that it was the actions of Savvides and the paper throwing idiot that cost you the title and not the actions of anyone else. This is what should be addressed by PAOK.

1) Next time we think we will lose a game, we can set up an injury if it is regardless theatrics. We can set up that a σπόρι or a στραγάλι hit someone from our bench, it doesn't even have to be in the head, maybe in the leg or the arm, then go to the dressing room, put some make-up or something, and then decide to leave the stadium and go for drinks. We win the match 3-0 and we everything is fine. No? What do you mean? Wasn't the σπόρι enough to justify what happened? You said it doesn't matter. It's an object thrown by someone and hit someone.

2) Why Savvidis invaded? Because he is crazy? You don't care about the reason? PAOK scored a goal, the referees showed goal and then they changed the decision based on what AEK's bench was saying to the fourth referee. Is that the football you want to see? Decisions to be changed based on the complaints of specific people who have more power over others? Dimitriadis and Liberopoulos or whoever was the one who made the referees change their mind? If that's not διακωμώδηση του αθλήματος then what's that? First you should be ashamed of that my friend and then criticize Savvidis entering the field. But no one cares about that. No one punished those referees. No one punished the referee from the PAOK-Olympiakos match who changed his statement. You all accept that as it's normal and fair. If that's your ethics, you can shove it to your a s s. Be my guest. We are different and we don't agree with that.

Liberopoulos was offside when he scored for AEK at the Greek Cup final. No one mentions. Everyone though from POK will mention for ever the offside goal that gave PAOK the cup last year. And I assume you are a fan of POK, right? Again, your fake objectivity cannot affect us my friend. And you can write down as many times as you want that AEK deserved the title because they played in Europe and whatnot. Believe what you want to believe. The fact is PAOK gathered the most points by playing football, almost won AEK, and probably would have won Olympiakos, but didn't let him to win either of those matches. On the contrary they deducted points and punished heavily the team for stupid reasons. You want more? PAOK got 7-matches no fans ban from what happened at the Greek Cup. How many games AEK did without fans? If you don't know go and check. That's the Greek justice. For a match with 50-50 tickets and horrible scenes by both team fans, PAOK got hugely greater punishment. Do you know why? Because we are from the χωριό which is called Thessaloniki and you don't want PAOK to grow and get stronger.

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11 hours ago, Yiankos said:

1) Next time we think we will lose a game, we can set up an injury if it is regardless theatrics. We can set up that a σπόρι or a στραγάλι hit someone from our bench, it doesn't even have to be in the head, maybe in the leg or the arm, then go to the dressing room, put some make-up or something, and then decide to leave the stadium and go for drinks. We win the match 3-0 and we everything is fine. No? What do you mean? Wasn't the σπόρι enough to justify what happened? You said it doesn't matter. It's an object thrown by someone and hit someone.

2) Why Savvidis invaded? Because he is crazy? You don't care about the reason? PAOK scored a goal, the referees showed goal and then they changed the decision based on what AEK's bench was saying to the fourth referee. Is that the football you want to see? Decisions to be changed based on the complaints of specific people who have more power over others? Dimitriadis and Liberopoulos or whoever was the one who made the referees change their mind? If that's not διακωμώδηση του αθλήματος then what's that? First you should be ashamed of that my friend and then criticize Savvidis entering the field. But no one cares about that. No one punished those referees. No one punished the referee from the PAOK-Olympiakos match who changed his statement. You all accept that as it's normal and fair. If that's your ethics, you can shove it to your a s s. Be my guest. We are different and we don't agree with that.

Liberopoulos was offside when he scored for AEK at the Greek Cup final. No one mentions. Everyone though from POK will mention for ever the offside goal that gave PAOK the cup last year. And I assume you are a fan of POK, right? Again, your fake objectivity cannot affect us my friend. And you can write down as many times as you want that AEK deserved the title because they played in Europe and whatnot. Believe what you want to believe. The fact is PAOK gathered the most points by playing football, almost won AEK, and probably would have won Olympiakos, but didn't let him to win either of those matches. On the contrary they deducted points and punished heavily the team for stupid reasons. You want more? PAOK got 7-matches no fans ban from what happened at the Greek Cup. How many games AEK did without fans? If you don't know go and check. That's the Greek justice. For a match with 50-50 tickets and horrible scenes by both team fans, PAOK got hugely greater punishment. Do you know why? Because we are from the χωριό which is called Thessaloniki and you don't want PAOK to grow and get stronger.

Amen brother! ;)

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12 hours ago, Yiankos said:

1) Next time we think we will lose a game, we can set up an injury if it is regardless theatrics. We can set up that a σπόρι or a στραγάλι hit someone from our bench, it doesn't even have to be in the head, maybe in the leg or the arm, then go to the dressing room, put some make-up or something, and then decide to leave the stadium and go for drinks. We win the match 3-0 and we everything is fine. No? What do you mean? Wasn't the σπόρι enough to justify what happened? You said it doesn't matter. It's an object thrown by someone and hit someone.

2) Why Savvidis invaded? Because he is crazy? You don't care about the reason? PAOK scored a goal, the referees showed goal and then they changed the decision based on what AEK's bench was saying to the fourth referee. Is that the football you want to see? Decisions to be changed based on the complaints of specific people who have more power over others? Dimitriadis and Liberopoulos or whoever was the one who made the referees change their mind? If that's not διακωμώδηση του αθλήματος then what's that? First you should be ashamed of that my friend and then criticize Savvidis entering the field. But no one cares about that. No one punished those referees. No one punished the referee from the PAOK-Olympiakos match who changed his statement. You all accept that as it's normal and fair. If that's your ethics, you can shove it to your a s s. Be my guest. We are different and we don't agree with that.

Liberopoulos was offside when he scored for AEK at the Greek Cup final. No one mentions. Everyone though from POK will mention for ever the offside goal that gave PAOK the cup last year. And I assume you are a fan of POK, right? Again, your fake objectivity cannot affect us my friend. And you can write down as many times as you want that AEK deserved the title because they played in Europe and whatnot. Believe what you want to believe. The fact is PAOK gathered the most points by playing football, almost won AEK, and probably would have won Olympiakos, but didn't let him to win either of those matches. On the contrary they deducted points and punished heavily the team for stupid reasons. You want more? PAOK got 7-matches no fans ban from what happened at the Greek Cup. How many games AEK did without fans? If you don't know go and check. That's the Greek justice. For a match with 50-50 tickets and horrible scenes by both team fans, PAOK got hugely greater punishment. Do you know why? Because we are from the χωριό which is called Thessaloniki and you don't want PAOK to grow and get stronger.

Ok here's my response:

1) Do it if that's how you want to win games...oh wait you already set that precedence last year against PAO and personally I was fine with the punishment PAO got. As a matter of fact, former PAO coach Anastasiou is the only coach who got hit in the head with an object, bandaged it up and continued the game.

2)Why? Who cares....if Savvides stayed off the field and waited for the referee to give his final decision then you would have won the game. Its like arguing in court that you became a thief and committed a crime because you didn't have any money to buy the object you stole....and expecting not to be found guilty in court. No team has been screwed over as much as PAO over the last 5-6 years so we all know about the corruption and sapila in the GSL....its hasn't all of a sudden appeared to take down PAOK.

3) Seriously I am being objective about all this....I've stated before in the PAOK forum that I was pulling for PAOK to win for the good of the game, simply to get the title out of Athens (and more specifically Piraeus)....I also supported AEK during their run in the Europa and heavily criticized PAO and Olympiakos. I believe the stronger the teams, the stronger the league gets and greek football in general so any team that gets stronger improves the product and I'm all for that. I just don't believe football should be politicized to create schisms in an already screwed up country....its not worth it....but many people prefer to create an "us vs them" scenario for whatever reasons.

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Instead of everyone going in circles, I would like everyone to answer my question. Achilles Heel, I am going to be quoting some of your statements, as I feel they represent the most objective of the opinions (to some it may seem I am using the term loosely) that have been formed as to why PAOK deserved what it got.

1. AchillesHeel sates: "in the game against AEK, Savvides invaded the pitch and pulled his team out....whether he threatened anyone or not, he stopped the game....a stupid, impetuous move that cost you the title." the only thing I will correct you on, is that he attempted to pull the team, as the players didn't actually listen to him. But for argument's sake, let's say he did pull the team off. I agree, if you pull your team off without the permission of the match officials, you are forfeiting the match. Regardless why you pulled the team. Can we agree that is the case?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, then should Olympiakos have forfeited the match against PAOK a few weeks earlier? Based on what happened, it was Vice President Theodoridis who pulled all of his players off the pitch prior to the referee even knowing what occurred. He even stated this to NOVA Sports as he was doing it "Pira tin omada kai figame".

3. It sounds like if fans throw something onto the pitch, regardless of what it is, and it hits a player/coach/etc of the opposing team, the home team should forfeit the match. This is confirmed by your statement "the game against oly never started because a fan threw an object and hit the coach (regardless of theatrics that can't be allowed even if I think Garcia and oly are chickens#!ts)". Can we all agree, that if a fan of a home team throws an object, regardless if it's a feather or a brick, the match should be forfeited by the home team? If you disagree, please state why, or how you would adjust this rule.

4. We seem ok with punishing bad behaviour commited by PAOK. However, no one seems to have a problem with the fact that we rewarded bad behaviour by Olympiakos and AEK (they both were awarded the maximum points). In Olympiakos' case they were awarded 3 points for faking an injury, and for pulling their team off prematurely. In AEK's case, they were rewarded for verbally abusing the referees and for (apparently) refusing to accept the referee's order to return to the field. I agree PAOK should be punished for its bad behaviour. Is it right to reward Olympiakos and AEK for their bad, though not to the same degree, behaviour? Or should they also just receive 0 points for the match (while PAOK received -3)?

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2 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

Ok here's my response:

1) Do it if that's how you want to win games...oh wait you already set that precedence last year against PAO and personally I was fine with the punishment PAO got. As a matter of fact, former PAO coach Anastasiou is the only coach who got hit in the head with an object, bandaged it up and continued the game.

 

Many other coaches in the past did the same thing as Anastasiou. And I am not proud of my fans throwing objects literally to everybody in the past. But how many times do we have to say the same things? Ivic followed orders from the referee and then left on the game's doctor call. Olympiakos left because they are νταβατζήδες. And then the referee changed his statement so PAOK will be punished and Olympiakos wins the game on paper. That's fair? That's justice? Next game, someone throw a piece of paper, the team decides to leave and if they are backed by the referees as AEK and Olympiakos this year, they win the game 3-0 and the opposite team gets punished! You like that football?

Anyway, I started answering you, but PAOK17 did it very well before me.

You can answer to him, he says the same thing.

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First off I'd like to say that its refreshing to have a respectful exchange of ideas as that is what these type of forums are for.

1- I agree that if a team leaves the pitch without proper reason they should forfeit the game....one of the few situations this should happen because its disrespectful to the fans and unprofessional behavior.

2- Yes oly didn't follow protocal and it should have been dealt with by the league (wishful thinking) because it was unprofessional and uncalled for at the time when it happened.

3- Players and coaches shouldn't have to fear being hit by anything and I can't think of any reason they should be....its just a game. That being said, I don't think forfeiting the game is the correct punishment if its the act of a sole individual....I'm not talking about riots and setting fires....I'm talking about totally isolated instances where the teams can continue to play afterwards or if something happened as in the oly game, it should have been replayed at a later date. You can't walk off and cancel games just like that.

4- This season its PAOK who feel victimized by the system (although there were times when it looked like they were favored by the same system), the past few seasons its been PAO and before that it was AEK and next year it might be olympiakos (again wishful thinking). The fact is that the rules at any given time need to be applied equally to all teams, something that I think we can agree does not happen....every team should be on equal footing regardless of what the rules are at any given moment.

I'd also add that the hearings and appeals haven't been completed and you never know what will happen but I got the feeling when following them that PAOK went about it in a sloppy fashion....I don't think the representatives did a very good job, almost as if they expected the judges to see their side of the story without taking the effort to make the proper points. Anyway games need to be won or lost (or drawn) on the field and not in courtrooms.

Congratulations on your victory today over panionios it was a very good showing....and like I said you never know what can happen even though AEK has an easy schedule the rest of the way.

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No news yet on the appeal.  Are the adjudicators on holidays ?

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