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Blackhawk

SL–R25: PAOK - AEK (11 Mar 18, 19:30 EET)

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1 hour ago, AchillesHeel said:

Its actually against the law to carry `a weapon into a football game and by law he should have been arrested right there and then but the police were afraid of causing a riot and getting their asses beat...and you do realize that carrying a concealed weapon is an even more serious offence than carrying one out in the open? Few countries in the world are as tolerant and lackadaisical towards firearms as the U.S.

True, but that has not prevented others bringing guns to the Greek stadiums in the past, ranging from team owners to league presidents. The issue has not been dealt with it then. and we have problems  at present as a result. The biggest problem in Greek society and Greek football is that laws exist, but they are selectively or seldom enforced.

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4 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Nobody threatened anybody with a gun and I even question if there was a verbal abuse by Savvidis. That's just media controlled by POK team(s) and political parties frenzy the last two days.  

The issue is political and economical. Ever since Savvidis took over PAOK and started investing in northern Greece. 

And you are right jvc. The league will be sabotaged on weekly basis. Greek football has been sick for decades, but suspending the season for few weeks and then restarting it will accomplish absolutely nothing unless drastic changes are made.

UEFA/FIFA came to Greece to solve the issue after the Undersecretary of Sports called them in. If they decide to punish PAOK selectively as is pushed by the Athenian media, then once again nothing will be accomplished.

It needs to be a collective punishment for it to have any effect.

It's not PAOK that I want punished....It's the Greek football system.   If there's stiff penalty against Savidis I'm fine with it....but if they continue on business as usual after that....that will accomplish nothing.  I want Greece banned from European football now....2 years minimum.

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If the ban will fix what's wrong with Greek football than I am all for it. However I even doubt that.

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1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

Can I ask you one question? How long have you been following Greek football?

1995

You guys continue to surprise me, it's actually quite pointless how long I have follow Greek Football for, I know of your writing well Blackhell and your tv stuff which I love, I have not just come on board Greek football.

My post you have quoted clearly states why I asked you the questions I did but you guys don't see the big picture. I know the history and I know OSFP's juganought of the league. I expect they lose the 3 points vs AEK

Bravo to Savvidis for doing what I am looking at PAOK to do - take so responsibility without putting a blame or deflecting it on others!!!! 

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3 hours ago, Bananas said:

So you decide NOW is the time to show authority and PAOK will be the EXAMPLE!  With this one swift and yet to be thought of punishment we will cleanse the league and behold all presidents will tremble in fear.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be so, I'm saying that you have the second largest city in Greece feeling like it's being targeted just because well all of a sudden for the first time in 3 decades their team is competitive and has an owner that actually pays the players on time.  Get where I'm going with this ?  It just makes the situation worse, not better.  Have any punishments harsh or otherwise improved Greek soccer in the last 25 years ?  Is there one you think will work on this occasion ?  I mean really work.  Go on throw the book at them!  Something tells me no matter how harsh the penalty all you're going to do is piss off half a million people.

If they can be wise (ha ha I know) and punish only Savvidis maybe then we may be going in the right direction.  I hold little hope that will happen though and all that's going to happen is Savvidis after getting smacked down will just come back harder only this time he'll probably do it less publicly.  After all, the man has meetings with Putin on occasion.

Did you forget what Panathinaikos has copped??? My god people!! I’m trying to not get involved but some of the things I’m reading... 

Savvidis forced a match to be abandoned, PAOK will be punished for this weather you guys like it or not or try convince yourselves you won’t.

Whats a shame is how good the fans were despite the one idiot in the OSFP game.

For the sake of Greek Football they need to act on this right away.

As much as you guys want to talk about the past it’s not gona get you anywhere. The “authorities” have really only started to hold some accountability the last few years. PAO has been heavily punished as a result, you can’t escape this.

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8 hours ago, DunfermlineAthleticPAOK said:

PAOK are being made out to be the bogeyman here but the system is so corrupt and has been broken for so long that it had to boil over at some point. TBH when you go back and look at previous incidents, then what happened on Sunday night was nowhere near the worst and I am actually surprised that in years past, clubs have not just gone "whats the point?" and given up totally due to being sick and tired or the same crap every year. 

Ask yourself what the difference is now in 2018 rather than any of the past 20+ years? In my honest opinion, it's clear why this is getting so much attention and faux outrage. Savvidis has come in and kicked the hornets nest big time and spoiled the equilibrium. God only knows what he was thinking on Sunday night and he deserves to get punished big time to stop things like this happening again.

The players and fans should not be punished for this sorry mess. The money men and people with 'power' in Greece have caused this and its been coming for a long time. Funnily enough, up until Olympiakos fans stormed the pitch, this season was passing without major incident and seemed to be fairly contested with games and the league being decided on the pitch.

Why anyone would want to be a ref is mystery but especially in Greece. They lost total control with the farcical way they handled the situation.They are over dramatic and get far too animated which only makes it worse.  Saying that, the way AEK's players and bench reacted was pretty disgraceful referees need to be more decisive and stronger mentally... i guess it's easier said than done though.

Very good post and on the money.

You make a key point about the money men and people in power in Greece... for me this is the real issue, a huge lack of common sense, calmness and leadership. The curruption and anarchist culture in Greece has killed football IMO.

Big point you make, until the OSFP incident with cops at the AEK game the season was going fine, and following that incidents at Toumba in the two games we have spoken about by only some people have created chaos because the Greeks can’t handle situations and in a timely manner. 

EPO needs a leader, the current president is useless, frankly, I think people from abroad need to come in and actually run the game in Greece as I can’t see them changing to be able to handle situations that go a little haywire, it just becomes one big mess

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You guys wrote great posts and forgive me if I duplicate your thoughts.

All those who are "crying" again for the bad PAOK, would do the same thing in any case. If the horrible referee would count the goal and PAOK had won 1-0, you would crying that PAOK is the halifi because the three points were returned to us. You would find a way to continue the propaganda against PAOK. Because no one of you can tolerate PAOK winning the championship.

AEK fans... Remember some shootings twenty years ago inside your members club.

Panathinaikos fans... Remember your own president back in the day...

Olympiakos fans... No need to say anything.

Savvidis did not threaten AEK players and his bodyguards were trying to cool him down. No one attacked the p u s s i e s who were entering the field from the very first minute of the game. PAOK lost from AEK in OAKA 1-0 in the details and AEK would lose in Toumba in the details. But of course someone has to continue the circus so PAOK does not get this championship.

And by the way, Lyberopoulos scored offside goal in the cup final in 2011. This was not a petsino cup? But last year's PAOK cup is a petsino cup, right? And then you want us to take you seriously. Καλά έκανε και σε πηδούσε ο Ολυμπιακός όσα χρόνια έπαιζες μπάλα βλαχόμαγκα Λυμπερόπουλε που τώρα θα μας το παίξεις και Παναγία.

Araujo could have scored? Yes! As Prijovic could have scored in the first game in OAKA and have the match finish 1-1. PAOK lost from Olympiakos 1-0 without being worse than them. In fact we had better chances than Olympiakos. But, PAOK is not allowed to win neither Olympiakos or AEK in Toumba. It's a crime to win them and it's a crime to win the championship. That's the story for me. And Savvidis has to explain himself only to PAOK fans (as he did) and not to the mafiozoi Melissanidis, or Marinakis, or anyone else from the corrupted football system.

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2 hours ago, jvc said:

It's not PAOK that I want punished....It's the Greek football system.   If there's stiff penalty against Savidis I'm fine with it....but if they continue on business as usual after that....that will accomplish nothing.  I want Greece banned from European football now....2 years minimum.

Bullshit. As soon as the incident happened you have been saying that PAOK should be relegated 

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29 minutes ago, Alphonse said:

Savvidis forced a match to be abandoned, PAOK will be punished for this weather you guys like it or not or try convince yourselves you won’t.

PAO has been heavily punished as a result, you can’t escape this.

In a normal country PAOK would get punished, yes. However, in a normal country we would have some good referees to begin with and not those clowns who are surrounded by AEK officials and players for 5 minutes and don't do anything about it like sending them off the field. In a normal country the guys from this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Greek_football_scandal, especially Marinakis to name just one, would have faced a very high punishment, but we all know that Marinakis et al. got away with it. 

Moreover, since this is Greece, I am baffled as to why you are so confident about PAOK getting punished. You are forgeting how corrupt Greece actually is. It might turn out that Savvidis gets punished as an individual with a heavy monetary fine (in order to tell UEFA/FIFA that the situation has been dealt with) while AEK loses the game on paper for refusing to restart the game. Also do not forget how badly written the Greek law is, everything is possible in this case. It is undeniable that Savvidis has good relations with SYRIZA and the police as well as with the president of the EPO. Not to mention the fact that Greece is a weak country facing a deep economical crisis for years now. I wouldn't be too sure that Greece actually screws someone who invests millions of Euro in this corrupt sh**hole. Savvidis investments (in football as well as in other sectors) are worth millions of taxpayer money, he is a goldmine for the bankrupt Greek economy. Oh and since I heard from AEKtzides that the FIFA will come to aide them. Are we talking about the same FIFA that decided to have the world championship in Russia and Qatar? The FIFA I know has even more corruption scandals going on than Olympiakos, and AEK expects them for help? I am not convinced that they can expect some real help here, but we shall see. 

Listen to what Raptopoulos says if you want a realistic view about the μπουρδέλο Greece actually is: 

Now is the time we will truely see if Savvidis is actually a χαλίφης. Isn't it ironic? Those who accused Savvidis of being a χαλίφης for months now must fear that their own accusations are not actually true. Haha I like that. 

Oh and since no one talked about the football we saw, here are a few words: The two best teams in Greece played against each other, and instead of having an interesting match with box to box offensives, all we saw were two mediocre teams who were afraid to make a mistake. Honestly, Lucescu showed in this particular game that he is everything but a genius, waiting far too long to throw Biseswar in, while his Limnios experiment has not worked out and he wasted a complete half-time for this. Seriously, we would have not this discussion right now if Biseswar had started at the beginning of the second half since he alone improved PAOK's offensive massively. 

But I guess I should switch to the Premier League, La Liga or the Bundesliga to see some real football. Greece is only interesting if you like to see chaos and anarchy, mixed with screw ups and corruption from all sides, oh and don't forget the gruesome football. Greek football really is a sh**show.

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1 hour ago, SydneyPAOK said:

Bullshit. As soon as the incident happened you have been saying that PAOK should be relegated 

Yes I did....Time has passed and thinking about it logically,  that would not be fair.   That will not be justice for the league,   and the s%$#! show will continue.  Marinakis needs to pay for his actions also....Asteras cup final,  one of many.  Kareskaki 2011 against PAO....and many more.  To add,  the other 2 PAO and AEK have done their fare share also.  The only justified punishment is a cancellation of the league,   and a 2 year ban from Europe.  Nothing else will satisfy me.  I'm a believer that yoy must pay for your crimes....until that day comes,  the healing will not begin.   The s%$#! show will continue.

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I think emotions are running a bit high here for some people. We should all take a step back and re-evaluate the direction of this discussion. We're all Greek and want a strong, competitive Super League right?

I get it that we're all just some randoms on an internet forum but things in Greek soccer get way too tribalistic for its own good, and I'm seeing it play out right now

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Posted (edited)

I showed the video to another referee who is actually a level higher than me and he says that (of course he said a tough one)that it is OFFSIDE.   He feels the PAOK player  is interfering with the goalkeepers attempt to make the save and he is involved in active play therefore all the criteria for offside are met.   So again this one will go either way depending on how the ref views it.  

Edited by Polikastano

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35 minutes ago, Polikastano said:

I showed the video to another referee who is actually a level higher than me and he says that (of course he said a tough one)that it is OFFSIDE.   He feels the PAOK player  is interfering with the goalkeepers attempt to make the save and he is involved in active play therefore all the criteria for offside are met.   So again this one will go either way depending on how the ref views it.  

Haha, funny thing is, I showed it to a friend of mine that I used to play with, he was a goalkeeper [not a great one] but is now a referee's assessor who has just been appointed to assess the performance of referee's at confederation level [asian champions league and asian world cup qualifiers etc.]

his take is that it is not offside as the goalkeeper is unlikely to have seen the player until his dive was underway, but he also said from where the linesman is the player would seem to be interfering so whatever the call is, the situation the officials found themselves meant their call would have been correct.

hope my drivel above made sense.

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The referee on a Greek sport show after the game gave it off side, it's down to interpretation, it's a tough call, personally I think it's actually a goal as Bargas was at full stretch and we saw his reaction after it went in.

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5 hours ago, Alphonse said:

The referee on a Greek sport show after the game gave it off side, it's down to interpretation, it's a tough call, personally I think it's actually a goal as Bargas was at full stretch and we saw his reaction after it went in.

This is my take on it. Mauricio was not in the keepers line of sight and did not affect the play. You can tell a lot from players reactions and the keeper had no complaints what so ever and neither did any of the players bar 1 who made a fuss (probable more a release of motion than anything) and then when they all jumped on the bandwagon, all hell broke loose

The linesman ran straight back to towards the half way line with his flag down, he had no intention of giving it as offside. In 'close' calls the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the attacking team.

The officials totally [email protected] it with the way they handled the situation and allowed the drama to build up.

The main point is that they gave the goal, then were swayed by AEK's bench and players, then disallowed it, then started strutting about as if they were enjoying being the center of attention. We watch football to see the players, not some power happy drama queen with a whistle.

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17 hours ago, BostonThanatos said:

I don't take the Greek League serious enough to actually have well thought out 5 paragraph debates about it.  It's been a joke for 40 years, and it will be for years to come.  Some of you guys take this thing way too serious.

I agree....I'm mainly here to brush up on my writing skills....:verycool:

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1 hour ago, AchillesHeel said:

I agree....I'm mainly here to brush up on my writing skills....:verycool:

Lol

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20 hours ago, jvc said:

Yes I did....Time has passed and thinking about it logically,  that would not be fair. 

The only reason the "relegation issue" has been regurgitated over and over is because of the hysterical and in my eyes hypocritical coverage of the Athenian media in Greece. 

If they have the balls at Superleague and EPO I hope they do it. But first they need to relegate Olympiakos for fixing up games for the past decade. If not, it will be another selectively enforced law to suit somebody else.

This unfortunately bring the country closer to the 2nd civil war in Greece. Even without the football issues that's where the country is slowly going. I've said it before. The issue is political and football is just the excuse. I am afraid we might end up like the former Yougoslavia, and incidentally it was a football match that sparked that conflict. 

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23 hours ago, Alphonse said:

My god people!! I’m trying to not get involved but some of the things I’m reading... 

Stou koufou tin porta, oso theleis vronta!

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22 hours ago, Alphonse said:

EPO needs a leader, the current president is useless, 

Do you know who the EPO leader is and how he became the leader of EPO?

And BTW the reason I asked you how long you have been following Greek football to see how much of the Greek football past have you witnessed. So I ask you. For the past 23 years have you seen any improvement? 

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45 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Do you know who the EPO leader is and how he became the leader of EPO?

And BTW the reason I asked you how long you have been following Greek football to see how much of the Greek football past have you witnessed. So I ask you. For the past 23 years have you seen any improvement? 

Of course in know who he is, Vagellis Grammenos. 

I don’t know how he became the leader, non of his actions or comments have shown anything is what I have seen, how did he become?

I have not really seen any improvements, the officiating has gotten better in the sense that OSFP has not had favourable calls go their way this season like they usually do which created a very close SL.

The main thing is, and sadly they don’t know how to deal and solve issues like the last few weeks, there is always delays, inconsistencies, never any calm or smart leadership and most of all no accountability. I don’t think the Greek mentality will allow things to move forward really, there are some blogs on Agona about the culture that speak to this, but even the Deputy Sports Minister does not inspire me with any confidence. 

Until there is some brains in charge and presidents actually lead the way for starters we won’t get anywhere in Greece

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Posted (edited)

Am I reading this correctly that the Greek national football team will be banned from international competition in the near future after the incident in Toumba? 

Edited by Molon Lave

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57 minutes ago, Alphonse said:

Of course in know who he is, Vagellis Grammenos. 

I don’t know how he became the leader, non of his actions or comments have shown anything is what I have seen, how did he become?

Savvidis and Melissanidis managed through a combined effort to convince the majority of various "enosis" to vote for Grammenos in order to defeat Girtzikis in the EPO elections. Savvidis delivered 50 % of the enosis, Melissanidis 30% and the rest voted for Olympiakos supported enosis. The original effort to oust the Olympiakos controlled EPO included Alafouzos, but that went out of the window fairly early in the process. After that he joined hands with Marinakis to promote his propaganda on his TV station. And of course now the Savvidis -  Melissanidis cooperation is dead after the latest events. 

Officiating has improved due to the fact that they cleaned up most of the corrupted refs, but there were few that still remained (Aretopoulos, Kalogeropoulos, Kominis) mainly because the referees are controlled appointed to games by  FIFA. 

As for Grammenos he really did not have enough time to do anything substantial. He tried to fix up the national team by taking them out from the Karaiskaki Stadium, but that is now will not last long either. He will not last long. He was hated by Olympiakos from the beginning and now that the PAOK - AEK cooperation is finished we will go back to Olympiakos controlled EPO.

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Bloody hope not re OSFP-EPO, which goes back to the issues with Greek soccer, there is always a bias way in EPO... they can't go back to the OSFP favoritism, it's what created so much hate and boiling points, that means nothing will be achieved with what's going on now.

Thank you very much for the run down, much appreciated.

If Grammenos wanted to fix the National Team he could have done much much more than move them out of Karaiskaki, there was no friendlies planned for at least a year and Skibbe... to make a team a family again is a weak reason given how that happened (picking the same guys over and over no matter of form) but let's see if Skibbe pays off  

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