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SL–R25: PAOK - AEK (11 Mar 18, 19:30 EET)

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I just told you I don't feel AEK harassed the officials, it was dumb and the reff should have booked both AEK and PAOK players that kept surrounding him but that was the referee's perogative.

Ok, see what happens in court Sydney PAOK, I think you have more to worry about than me but hey, let's see what happens

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6 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

Most PAOK supporters aren't denying accountability or punishment for PAOK. I am not excusing what happened yesterday. I am not sure how long you have been following Greek football for but i can tell you that Greek football has been plagued with corruption and fan violence. It hasn't all of a sudden become all this since yesterday and i disagree with you that PAOK f**ed Greek football. 

And by the way injustices of the past can be addressed today. Any crime committed in history can be dealt with today so not sure why we cant go back in time. It also allows an outsider or someone new to Greek football ( im guessing you) to understand the mentality. 

Its very easy to pounce on the event that just unfolded and make PAOK look like the worst club on the face of the earth. It actually highlights how much other clubs in Greece NEED a scapegoat. 

3 weeks ago AEK officially asked for Greek football to be suspended until court cases were resolved. Now all of a sudden AEK fans are up in arms complaining that the league has been suspended as this punishes all clubs not PAOK. Hypocrites.

AEK fans slammed PAOK for winning the Cup final in 2017 for a goal that was scored from an offside position labelling PAOK cheats and accusing Savvidis of running Greek football. Do you not recall 2011??? Let me remind you what Atromitos owner said

"This took Greek soccer back at least 100 years" AEK won the cup today because it had to win. Everyone saw what circumstances we had to play in?".

AEK fans also stormed the pitch that day and clashed with police and ATTACKED Atromitos players. This has all been forgotten now and PAOK are the culprits of the mess in Greek Soccer according to you.

Panathinaikos fans are demanding PAOK be relegated yet their club has not been relegated like Iraklis for being in debt. Hypocrites. 

Olympiakos fans are labeling Savvidis as a corrupt owner who has influence over the Greek Super League yet its ok and all forgotten that their owner has been that for 20 years. Its all forgotten that he is involved in match fixing. They want to label Savvidis a gangster for carrying a pistol yet police found tonnes of heroin on one of his ships. Hypocrites

Again I am NOT excusing what Savvidis did last night. It was STUPID and should be punished 100%, BUT don't come here and act like your team are angels and that Greek football was a church before events that have occurred at TOUMBA. Greece is a mess for a reason and so is Greek soccer. It needs a royal commission an a massive overhaul of management

 

 

 

 

 

Well said.. take a bow.

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Posted (edited)

Γειά σας παιδιά,

My home internet went down ironically on the night of the game and I only got it back this afternoon.  Thank you Telstra.  I have been following this thread on my phone.  I hadn't bothered to reply since I find typing on a phone akin to torture.

I did though check the score on my phone (livescore.com) and I saw "Int" next to the game.  Being a computer programmer, my mind first went to "int: In many major programming languages, an int is a 32-bit signed integer.".  But surely this had to be something different.  I thought oh well, the fans have rioted again and rolled over and went back to sleep.  How wrong I was.

§

One thing I can't understand is the calling for PAOK the club to be punished.  I find this bizarre and egregious.

Only one person should be punished and that is Savvidis.  Did the PAOK players do anything wrong ?  If anything they behaved honourably.  Should all their hard work this season be thrown away because of the actions of Savvidis ?  Did the fans do anything wrong on this occasion ?  Should their dream of winning a championship for the first time since 1985 be dashed due to the actions of Savvidis ?

Too many are too quick to jump the gun.  But PAOK must be punished people will claim.  Otherwise how will they learn ?  Superficially, this feels right.  But it's not.  It's the wrong course.  It'll just lead to more anger in the long run.  Keep beating that kid till he learns.  Yeah sure, that'll work.

Would giving PAOK -3, -6 or however many points deduction teach Savvidis a lesson ?  Yeah sure, it would.  But you're still basically issuing a collective punishment on all the squad and all the fans.  It's not fair.  It's not right.  It's not just.  They did nothing wrong ... on this occasion.

Or maybe we should revert to the ways of the old testament where the sins of the father are punished for 7 generations ?  Sounds about right for Greece actually.

This is the course that leads to players wanting to leave Greece.  This is the course that leads to fans becoming disillusioned and embittered.  Because punishing PAOK the club is nothing short of a collective punishment.  If anyone thinks this will teach anyone a lesson it won't.

If it were up to me I would ban Savvidis from attending any games for 1 full season and issue a fine for 1 million euros.  In addition, a new law should be passed where if a president steps onto the pitch for any reason whatsoever, the same punishment will be  meted out.  This to me seems ... fair.  Savvidis was the one who did wrong so he should be punished.  Not the players and not the fans.

Edited by Bananas
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Posted (edited)

PAOK are being made out to be the bogeyman here but the system is so corrupt and has been broken for so long that it had to boil over at some point. TBH when you go back and look at previous incidents, then what happened on Sunday night was nowhere near the worst and I am actually surprised that in years past, clubs have not just gone "whats the point?" and given up totally due to being sick and tired or the same crap every year. 

Ask yourself what the difference is now in 2018 rather than any of the past 20+ years? In my honest opinion, it's clear why this is getting so much attention and faux outrage. Savvidis has come in and kicked the hornets nest big time and spoiled the equilibrium. God only knows what he was thinking on Sunday night and he deserves to get punished big time to stop things like this happening again.

The players and fans should not be punished for this sorry mess. The money men and people with 'power' in Greece have caused this and its been coming for a long time. Funnily enough, up until Olympiakos fans stormed the pitch, this season was passing without major incident and seemed to be fairly contested with games and the league being decided on the pitch.

Why anyone would want to be a ref is mystery but especially in Greece. They lost total control with the farcical way they handled the situation.They are over dramatic and get far too animated which only makes it worse.  Saying that, the way AEK's players and bench reacted was pretty disgraceful referees need to be more decisive and stronger mentally... i guess it's easier said than done though.

Edited by DunfermlineAthleticPAOK

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http://www.paokfc.gr/en/news/20180312-dilosi-ivan-savvidi/,

"I wish to apologize to all PAOK supporters, Greek fans and the international football community.

I am deeply sorry for what happened. I had absolutely no right to enter the pitch the way I did.

My emotional reaction stems from the widespread negative situations prevailing in Greek football lately and from all the unacceptable, non sports-related events that took place towards the end of the PAOK – AEK Athens encounter: the actions of the referee and his assistant (goal – offside – goal), the match suspension, the protests and invasion on the pitch by many people from both sides.

All that could lead to uncontrollable situations. My only aim was to protect tens of thousands of PAOK fans from provocation, riots and human casualties.

Please believe that I had no intention to engage in a brawl with our opponents or the referees. And Ι obviously did not threaten anybody.

Unfortunately, my family and I, as well as my colleagues, have been taken hostage by a totally sick football status-quo.

Despite the non-stop attacks I am facing on all fronts, I fight and I will continue to fight for fair football, equitable refereeing in all encounters and titles being won on the pitch and not in courtrooms.

I would like to apologize once again.

PAOK FC President
Ivan Savvidis"

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Ultimately, I believe he was trying to "handle" the situation himself as the goal should not have been disallowed.  Changing the call based on perceived harassment was wrong but that is on the ref.  Then Ivan coming down with a gun just destroys his argument. Three things should happen: 1) VAR should be instituted in Greece (take the call away from the refs on the pitch) - this can be even outsourced for the first year or two 2) Any players harassing the refs should be carded  3) Any ownership/management stepping onto the pitch should receive a fine/suspension.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bananas said:

Γειά σας παιδιά,

My home internet went down ironically on the night of the game and I only got it back this afternoon.  Thank you Telstra.  I have been following this thread on my phone.  I hadn't bothered to reply since I find typing on a phone akin to torture.

I did though check the score on my phone (livescore.com) and I saw "Int" next to the game.  Being a computer programmer, my mind first went to "int: In many major programming languages, an int is a 32-bit signed integer.".  But surely this had to be something different.  I thought oh well, the fans have rioted again and rolled over and went back to sleep.  How wrong I was.

§

One thing I can't understand is the calling for PAOK the club to be punished.  I find this bizarre and egregious.

Only one person should be punished and that is Savvidis.  Did the PAOK players do anything wrong ?  If anything they behaved honourably.  Should all their hard work this season be thrown away because of the actions of Savvidis ?  Did the fans do anything wrong on this occasion ?  Should their dream of winning a championship for the first time since 1985 be dashed due to the actions of Savvidis ?

Too many are too quick to jump the gun.  But PAOK must be punished people will claim.  Otherwise how will they learn ?  Superficially, this feels right.  But it's not.  It's the wrong course.  It'll just lead to more anger in the long run.  Keep beating that kid till he learns.  Yeah sure, that'll work.

Would giving PAOK -3, -6 or however many points deduction teach Savvidis a lesson ?  Yeah sure, it would.  But you're still basically issuing a collective punishment on all the squad and all the fans.  It's not fair.  It's not right.  It's not just.  They did nothing wrong ... on this occasion.

Or maybe we should revert to the ways of the old testament where the sins of the father are punished for 7 generations ?  Sounds about right for Greece actually.

This is the course that leads to players wanting to leave Greece.  This is the course that leads to fans becoming disillusioned and embittered.  Because punishing PAOK the club is nothing short of a collective punishment.  If anyone thinks this will teach anyone a lesson it won't.

If it were up to me I would ban Savvidis from attending any games for 1 full season and issue a fine for 1 million euros.  In addition, a new law should be passed where if a president steps onto the pitch for any reason whatsoever, the same punishment will be  meted out.  This to me seems ... fair.  Savvidis was the one who did wrong so he should be punished.  Not the players and not the fans.

Only a life time ban would be acceptable.   Also must look into death threats....maybe jail time. That being said,   going by the Greek mentality,  a season suspension and a fine is good enough.   So let's be honest Bananas....would that be cool with you?  To add,  the Greek league suspended for the season,   and 2 year ban from Europe....the whole system needs punishment.  I have been saying this for 7 years....until this happens,  nothing will change.  

Edited by jvc

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1 hour ago, Bananas said:

One thing I can't understand is the calling for PAOK the club to be punished.  I find this bizarre and egregious.

Only one person should be punished and that is Savvidis.  Did the PAOK players do anything wrong ?  If anything they behaved honourably.  Should all their hard work this season be thrown away because of the actions of Savvidis ?  Did the fans do anything wrong on this occasion ?  Should their dream of winning a championship for the first time since 1985 be dashed due to the actions of Savvidis ?

Too many are too quick to jump the gun.  But PAOK must be punished people will claim.  Otherwise how will they learn ?  Superficially, this feels right.  But it's not.  It's the wrong course.  It'll just lead to more anger in the long run.  Keep beating that kid till he learns.  Yeah sure, that'll work.

As owner and president Savvides is the highest ranking member of PAOK....trying to separate his actions from the club isn't possible. I can understand the sense of injustice when a club is punished for stupid act from a random fan but this is not the case here. Savvides says that he came onto the pitch not to threaten anyone but to pull his team out of the game so in effect, by his own admission, he stopped the game from being completed so whatever the situation is for Savvides punishment, PAOK's punishment is unavoidable as being the team responsible for the game not being completed.

The problem is that the big teams in the GSL have been treated like misbehaving children for too long.
" But PAOK must be punished people will claim.  Otherwise how will they learn ? "
I believe that the PAOK fans have learned considering their behavior in the games vs oly and aek where they had every reason including being shown by example by their president that pitch invasion was an option, but instead refrained...as I said before good on them....they hold no responsibilty in this matter, it falls directly on Savvides.

When Thatcher decided to combat hooliganism in england, implementing the Football Spectators Act, club ultras were infiltrated by police and the arrest were followed by stiff sentences, regardless of what psycho/social motivation and reasoning existed behind the actions. We can sit and discuss these matters amongst ourselves but the truth is that the GSL has to get its s%$#! together and give whatever punishment is deserved in each instance objectively...I know this has not been the case in the past but that if we keep going back to "what about when..." type arguments we'll never get anywhere. I don't know how good an idea it would be for UEFA to just take over and oversee the GSL, considering their own track record.

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I don't know much about Savvidis, other than he's close to Putin and that he's been investing a lot of money into Greece/Thessaloniki. I thought he would be better than what he showed on Sunday, but what's done is done. Hopefully he learns from his mistake, isn't forced to sell the team and is able to work with the rest of the owners/EPO to create a better product on and off of the field.

I was pulling for PAOK to take home the protathlima this year as well since I've become a bit of a fan of theirs ever since I visited Thessa. Oh well, maybe next year.

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2 hours ago, jvc said:

Only a life time ban would be acceptable.   Also must look into death threats....maybe jail time. That being said,   going by the Greek mentality,  a season suspension and a fine is good enough.   So let's be honest Bananas....would that be cool with you?  To add,  the Greek league suspended for the season,   and 2 year ban from Europe....the whole system needs punishment.  I have been saying this for 7 years....until this happens,  nothing will change.  

Not cool.  You ban him for life and he might just get rid of the team.  Then we go back to the good old days of presidents like Voulinos and Batatoudis who ironically are much worse than Savvidis.  Wannabe gangsters, thiefs and liars.  Although it would make Athens rejoice.

Again it's collective punishment.  The punishment has to hurt Savvidis and Savvidis only if that is possible.  As to what is appropriate hard to say exactly but I'm sure the intelligentsia out there could come up with something.

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2 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

As owner and president Savvides is the highest ranking member of PAOK....trying to separate his actions from the club isn't possible. I can understand the sense of injustice when a club is punished for stupid act from a random fan but this is not the case here. Savvides says that he came onto the pitch not to threaten anyone but to pull his team out of the game so in effect, by his own admission, he stopped the game from being completed so whatever the situation is for Savvides punishment, PAOK's punishment is unavoidable as being the team responsible for the game not being completed.

So you decide NOW is the time to show authority and PAOK will be the EXAMPLE!  With this one swift and yet to be thought of punishment we will cleanse the league and behold all presidents will tremble in fear.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be so, I'm saying that you have the second largest city in Greece feeling like it's being targeted just because well all of a sudden for the first time in 3 decades their team is competitive and has an owner that actually pays the players on time.  Get where I'm going with this ?  It just makes the situation worse, not better.  Have any punishments harsh or otherwise improved Greek soccer in the last 25 years ?  Is there one you think will work on this occasion ?  I mean really work.  Go on throw the book at them!  Something tells me no matter how harsh the penalty all you're going to do is piss off half a million people.

If they can be wise (ha ha I know) and punish only Savvidis maybe then we may be going in the right direction.  I hold little hope that will happen though and all that's going to happen is Savvidis after getting smacked down will just come back harder only this time he'll probably do it less publicly.  After all, the man has meetings with Putin on occasion.

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Ivan is a mafiozo.  You don't become a multi millionaire in Russia with close ties to the Putin and government positions without being one.  Sure he's a proud Pontio, Greek...but still a Mafiozo.   When he fist came to PAOK he thought he can make changes as a gentleman....now it's time to get into some Gangsta $hit.

Screen_Shot_2018-03-13_at_12.36.55_PM.pn

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18 minutes ago, Bananas said:

Not cool.  You ban him for life and he might just get rid of the team.  Then we go back to the good old days of presidents like Voulinos and Batatoudis who ironically are much worse than Savvidis.  Wannabe gangsters, thiefs and liars.  Although it would make Athens rejoice.

Again it's collective punishment.  The punishment has to hurt Savvidis and Savvidis only if that is possible.  As to what is appropriate hard to say exactly but I'm sure the intelligentsia out there could come up with something.

So basically no real punishment....because if it's a heavy penalty, and a fine doesn't apply here...he will walk away from the team. Very nice.

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3 minutes ago, BostonThanatos said:

Ivan is a mafiozo.  You don't become a multi millionaire in Russia with close ties to the Putin and government positions without being one.  Sure he's a proud Pontio, Greek...but still a Mafiozo.   When he fist came to PAOK he thought he can make changes as a gentleman....now it's time to get into some Gangsta $hit.

Screen_Shot_2018-03-13_at_12.36.55_PM.pn

You don't have enough pull in Greece....will not succeed.  

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Posted (edited)

The worse off Greece is financially and the more combative Turkey is towards Greece, I think his pull in Russia may become WAY more of an asset than most imagine. 

Edited by BostonThanatos

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If his gun is licensed, what's the issue?  For the majority of his time on the field it was concealed.  It was out only when his jacket came off, but I still haven't seen any video of him with his jacket off, only the 3-4 pictures that are circulating.  

When you carry a gun everyday of your life (which he probably does) you don't remember you even have half the time.  

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4 minutes ago, BostonThanatos said:

If his gun is licensed, what's the issue?  For the majority of his time on the field it was concealed.  It was out only when his jacket came off, but I still haven't seen any video of him with his jacket off, only the 3-4 pictures that are circulating.  

When you carry a gun everyday of your life (which he probably does) you don't remember you even have half the time.  

What's the issue?   Going on the field with a gun....that's is going over the line....after that threatening life, that's life ban and jail.  This will never go away. Savidis will be banned for life.

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17 minutes ago, Bananas said:

So you decide NOW is the time to show authority and PAOK will be the EXAMPLE!  With this one swift and yet to be thought of punishment we will cleanse the league and behold all presidents will tremble in fear.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be so, I'm saying that you have the second largest city in Greece feeling like it's being targeted just because well all of a sudden for the first time in 3 decades their team is competitive and has an owner that actually pays the players on time.  Get where I'm going with this ?  It just makes the situation worse, not better.  Have any punishments harsh or otherwise improved Greek soccer in the last 25 years ?  Is there one you think will work on this occasion ?  I mean really work.  Go on throw the book at them!  Something tells me no matter how harsh the penalty all you're going to do is piss off half a million people.

If they can be wise (ha ha I know) and punish only Savvidis maybe then we may be going in the right direction.  I hold little hope that will happen though and all that's going to happen is Savvidis after getting smacked down will just come back harder only this time he'll probably do it less publicly.  After all, the man has meetings with Putin on occasion.

NOW is already too late....this crap should have been done along time ago....but with league under Kokalis and then Marinakis' control it was never going to happen. Your argument that the timing should affect the implementation of rules because your team was in an advantageous position atm is no different than how things were under Marinakis. To me personally it looked like Savvides went to all the trouble of taking over greek football and now feels like he got screwed over by everyone after spending so much cash and thats what led to his meltdown. Its this mentality that hurt PAOK in the end....that since its worked like this the past 20 years why shouldn't it work now....regardless of whether its right or wrong. But at the end of it all Savvides only managed to shoot himself in the foot with his own gun....unfortunately for PAOK fans who deserved a title after 33 years. That no PAOK fan seem to be pissed off at Savvides is mindboggling to me.

20 minutes ago, BostonThanatos said:

If his gun is licensed, what's the issue?  For the majority of his time on the field it was concealed.  It was out only when his jacket came off, but I still haven't seen any video of him with his jacket off, only the 3-4 pictures that are circulating.  

When you carry a gun everyday of your life (which he probably does) you don't remember you even have half the time.  

Its actually against the law to carry `a weapon into a football game and by law he should have been arrested right there and then but the police were afraid of causing a riot and getting their asses beat...and you do realize that carrying a concealed weapon is an even more serious offence than carrying one out in the open? Few countries in the world are as tolerant and lackadaisical towards firearms as the U.S.

 

31 minutes ago, BostonThanatos said:

Ivan is a mafiozo.  You don't become a multi millionaire in Russia with close ties to the Putin and government positions without being one.  Sure he's a proud Pontio, Greek...but still a Mafiozo.   When he fist came to PAOK he thought he can make changes as a gentleman....now it's time to get into some Gangsta $hit.

Screen_Shot_2018-03-13_at_12.36.55_PM.pn

Seriously???>>>pretty funny though.

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16 hours ago, Alphonse said:

The two biggest issues have come from Toumba though... how is Olympiakos responsible for sabotaging the whole thing?

I am just curious how you guys keep pointing the finger at others.

The game vs Olympiakos did not happen because of one PAOK fan, it was then dealt with horribly, and we know the reff stuffed it but but you did get the 3 points back which IMO may have cause some of the reason this happened vs AEK. 

In the game vs AEK the match did not finish because the PAOK chairman invaded the pitch carrying a gun on him and threatened the reff and Dimitriadis

Your fans for the most part have been very good in all this which is a positive and I hope FIFA, UEFA & EPO look at the real instigators in this, which is a shame the well behaved fans are all getting punished now - as usually happens in Greece

Can I ask you one question? How long have you been following Greek football?

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Yeah I also don't think the gun is a big deal.

He should not have had it in the stadium, but i think it is not directly involved with this incident.

 

For instance i don't think the gun and him storming onto the field are related.

 

However he will get strong penalties for having a gun on a football pitch rightfully so.

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4 hours ago, Brklyngrk said:

Three things should happen: 1) VAR should be instituted in Greece (take the call away from the refs on the pitch) - this can be even outsourced for the first year or two 2) Any players harassing the refs should be carded  3) Any ownership/management stepping onto the pitch should receive a fine/suspension.

As far as VAR is concerned, the only team that wanted it in place this season was PAOK. Savvidis even offered to pay for it after the other owners turned it down due to being too costly. Believe me, some big teams in Superleague don't want VAR.

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Posted (edited)

^^Savidis wants a clean league....he's cool with winning the cup last year,  with a 5 yards offside goal....and winning on paper against PAO....but he's not happy the other way around.  Tell me, who's going to trust Greek football after Sunday?  Winning  a match by threatening lives with a gun from the owner.  If Savidis stays,   the league will be sabotaged weekly.  To the point of cancellation of the season.   

Edited by jvc

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Here are the first repercussions of Sundays match:

ECA strongly condemns the behaviour of PAOK FC President, Ivan Savvidis, who invaded the field of play armed with a gun during the Greek Superleague match between PAOK FC and AEK Athens on Sunday 11th March.

In light of this, and in accordance with the ECA Statutes, the ECA Executive Board unanimously decided to suspend, with immediate effect, PAOK FC as member of the European Club Association.

ECA exists to protect the integrity and regularity of competitions and matches as well as the sporting values and principles on which European football is based.

The suspension remains valid until further notice and shall be reported to the ECA General Assembly in Rome on 27th March 2018.

 

Source: http://www.ecaeurope.com/news/eca-executive-board-suspends-paok-fc-with-immediate-effect/

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Nobody threatened anybody with a gun and I even question if there was a verbal abuse by Savvidis. That's just media controlled by POK team(s) and political parties frenzy the last two days.  

The issue is political and economical. Ever since Savvidis took over PAOK and started investing in northern Greece. 

And you are right jvc. The league will be sabotaged on weekly basis. Greek football has been sick for decades, but suspending the season for few weeks and then restarting it will accomplish absolutely nothing unless drastic changes are made.

UEFA/FIFA came to Greece to solve the issue after the Undersecretary of Sports called them in. If they decide to punish PAOK selectively as is pushed by the Athenian media, then once again nothing will be accomplished.

It needs to be a collective punishment for it to have any effect.

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55 minutes ago, AchillesHeel said:

 

Its actually against the law to carry `a weapon into a football game and by law he should have been arrested right there and then but the police were afraid of causing a riot and getting their asses beat...and you do realize that carrying a concealed weapon is an even more serious offence than carrying one out in the open? Few countries in the world are as tolerant and lackadaisical towards firearms as the U.S.

I'm not familiar with the laws, but if you think owners in all leagues don't have armed security your kidding yourself.  My point was that when you carry a concealed weapon daily, you sometimes forget it's on you and do silly things like take your jacket off (your only concealment) and running around like a fool.

 

Seriously???>>>pretty funny though.

I was only being half serious. He's definitely a mofiozo....if you think otherwise, once again, you're only kidding yourself....I don't think he'll be getting into any gangsta $hit though, that part was meant to be funny.

 

I don't take the Greek League serious enough to actually have well thought out 5 paragraph debates about it.  It's been a joke for 40 years, and it will be for years to come.  Some of you guys take this thing way too serious.

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