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SL–R25: PAOK - AEK (11 Mar 18, 19:30 EET)


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6 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

Most PAOK supporters aren't denying accountability or punishment for PAOK. I am not excusing what happened yesterday. I am not sure how long you have been following Greek football for but i can tell you that Greek football has been plagued with corruption and fan violence. It hasn't all of a sudden become all this since yesterday and i disagree with you that PAOK f**ed Greek football. 

And by the way injustices of the past can be addressed today. Any crime committed in history can be dealt with today so not sure why we cant go back in time. It also allows an outsider or someone new to Greek football ( im guessing you) to understand the mentality. 

Its very easy to pounce on the event that just unfolded and make PAOK look like the worst club on the face of the earth. It actually highlights how much other clubs in Greece NEED a scapegoat. 

3 weeks ago AEK officially asked for Greek football to be suspended until court cases were resolved. Now all of a sudden AEK fans are up in arms complaining that the league has been suspended as this punishes all clubs not PAOK. Hypocrites.

AEK fans slammed PAOK for winning the Cup final in 2017 for a goal that was scored from an offside position labelling PAOK cheats and accusing Savvidis of running Greek football. Do you not recall 2011??? Let me remind you what Atromitos owner said

"This took Greek soccer back at least 100 years" AEK won the cup today because it had to win. Everyone saw what circumstances we had to play in?".

AEK fans also stormed the pitch that day and clashed with police and ATTACKED Atromitos players. This has all been forgotten now and PAOK are the culprits of the mess in Greek Soccer according to you.

Panathinaikos fans are demanding PAOK be relegated yet their club has not been relegated like Iraklis for being in debt. Hypocrites. 

Olympiakos fans are labeling Savvidis as a corrupt owner who has influence over the Greek Super League yet its ok and all forgotten that their owner has been that for 20 years. Its all forgotten that he is involved in match fixing. They want to label Savvidis a gangster for carrying a pistol yet police found tonnes of heroin on one of his ships. Hypocrites

Again I am NOT excusing what Savvidis did last night. It was STUPID and should be punished 100%, BUT don't come here and act like your team are angels and that Greek football was a church before events that have occurred at TOUMBA. Greece is a mess for a reason and so is Greek soccer. It needs a royal commission an a massive overhaul of management

 

 

 

 

 

Well said.. take a bow.

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Γειά σας παιδιά,

My home internet went down ironically on the night of the game and I only got it back this afternoon.  Thank you Telstra.  I have been following this thread on my phone.  I hadn't bothered to reply since I find typing on a phone akin to torture.

I did though check the score on my phone (livescore.com) and I saw "Int" next to the game.  Being a computer programmer, my mind first went to "int: In many major programming languages, an int is a 32-bit signed integer.".  But surely this had to be something different.  I thought oh well, the fans have rioted again and rolled over and went back to sleep.  How wrong I was.

§

One thing I can't understand is the calling for PAOK the club to be punished.  I find this bizarre and egregious.

Only one person should be punished and that is Savvidis.  Did the PAOK players do anything wrong ?  If anything they behaved honourably.  Should all their hard work this season be thrown away because of the actions of Savvidis ?  Did the fans do anything wrong on this occasion ?  Should their dream of winning a championship for the first time since 1985 be dashed due to the actions of Savvidis ?

Too many are too quick to jump the gun.  But PAOK must be punished people will claim.  Otherwise how will they learn ?  Superficially, this feels right.  But it's not.  It's the wrong course.  It'll just lead to more anger in the long run.  Keep beating that kid till he learns.  Yeah sure, that'll work.

Would giving PAOK -3, -6 or however many points deduction teach Savvidis a lesson ?  Yeah sure, it would.  But you're still basically issuing a collective punishment on all the squad and all the fans.  It's not fair.  It's not right.  It's not just.  They did nothing wrong ... on this occasion.

Or maybe we should revert to the ways of the old testament where the sins of the father are punished for 7 generations ?  Sounds about right for Greece actually.

This is the course that leads to players wanting to leave Greece.  This is the course that leads to fans becoming disillusioned and embittered.  Because punishing PAOK the club is nothing short of a collective punishment.  If anyone thinks this will teach anyone a lesson it won't.

If it were up to me I would ban Savvidis from attending any games for 1 full season and issue a fine for 1 million euros.  In addition, a new law should be passed where if a president steps onto the pitch for any reason whatsoever, the same punishment will be  meted out.  This to me seems ... fair.  Savvidis was the one who did wrong so he should be punished.  Not the players and not the fans.

Edited by Bananas
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PAOK are being made out to be the bogeyman here but the system is so corrupt and has been broken for so long that it had to boil over at some point. TBH when you go back and look at previous incidents, then what happened on Sunday night was nowhere near the worst and I am actually surprised that in years past, clubs have not just gone "whats the point?" and given up totally due to being sick and tired or the same crap every year. 

Ask yourself what the difference is now in 2018 rather than any of the past 20+ years? In my honest opinion, it's clear why this is getting so much attention and faux outrage. Savvidis has come in and kicked the hornets nest big time and spoiled the equilibrium. God only knows what he was thinking on Sunday night and he deserves to get punished big time to stop things like this happening again.

The players and fans should not be punished for this sorry mess. The money men and people with 'power' in Greece have caused this and its been coming for a long time. Funnily enough, up until Olympiakos fans stormed the pitch, this season was passing without major incident and seemed to be fairly contested with games and the league being decided on the pitch.

Why anyone would want to be a ref is mystery but especially in Greece. They lost total control with the farcical way they handled the situation.They are over dramatic and get far too animated which only makes it worse.  Saying that, the way AEK's players and bench reacted was pretty disgraceful referees need to be more decisive and stronger mentally... i guess it's easier said than done though.

Edited by DunfermlineAthleticPAOK
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http://www.paokfc.gr/en/news/20180312-dilosi-ivan-savvidi/,

"I wish to apologize to all PAOK supporters, Greek fans and the international football community.

I am deeply sorry for what happened. I had absolutely no right to enter the pitch the way I did.

My emotional reaction stems from the widespread negative situations prevailing in Greek football lately and from all the unacceptable, non sports-related events that took place towards the end of the PAOK – AEK Athens encounter: the actions of the referee and his assistant (goal – offside – goal), the match suspension, the protests and invasion on the pitch by many people from both sides.

All that could lead to uncontrollable situations. My only aim was to protect tens of thousands of PAOK fans from provocation, riots and human casualties.

Please believe that I had no intention to engage in a brawl with our opponents or the referees. And Ι obviously did not threaten anybody.

Unfortunately, my family and I, as well as my colleagues, have been taken hostage by a totally sick football status-quo.

Despite the non-stop attacks I am facing on all fronts, I fight and I will continue to fight for fair football, equitable refereeing in all encounters and titles being won on the pitch and not in courtrooms.

I would like to apologize once again.

PAOK FC President
Ivan Savvidis"

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Ultimately, I believe he was trying to "handle" the situation himself as the goal should not have been disallowed.  Changing the call based on perceived harassment was wrong but that is on the ref.  Then Ivan coming down with a gun just destroys his argument. Three things should happen: 1) VAR should be instituted in Greece (take the call away from the refs on the pitch) - this can be even outsourced for the first year or two 2) Any players harassing the refs should be carded  3) Any ownership/management stepping onto the pitch should receive a fine/suspension.

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I don't know much about Savvidis, other than he's close to Putin and that he's been investing a lot of money into Greece/Thessaloniki. I thought he would be better than what he showed on Sunday, but what's done is done. Hopefully he learns from his mistake, isn't forced to sell the team and is able to work with the rest of the owners/EPO to create a better product on and off of the field.

I was pulling for PAOK to take home the protathlima this year as well since I've become a bit of a fan of theirs ever since I visited Thessa. Oh well, maybe next year.

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2 hours ago, jvc said:

Only a life time ban would be acceptable.   Also must look into death threats....maybe jail time. That being said,   going by the Greek mentality,  a season suspension and a fine is good enough.   So let's be honest Bananas....would that be cool with you?  To add,  the Greek league suspended for the season,   and 2 year ban from Europe....the whole system needs punishment.  I have been saying this for 7 years....until this happens,  nothing will change.  

Not cool.  You ban him for life and he might just get rid of the team.  Then we go back to the good old days of presidents like Voulinos and Batatoudis who ironically are much worse than Savvidis.  Wannabe gangsters, thiefs and liars.  Although it would make Athens rejoice.

Again it's collective punishment.  The punishment has to hurt Savvidis and Savvidis only if that is possible.  As to what is appropriate hard to say exactly but I'm sure the intelligentsia out there could come up with something.

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2 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

As owner and president Savvides is the highest ranking member of PAOK....trying to separate his actions from the club isn't possible. I can understand the sense of injustice when a club is punished for stupid act from a random fan but this is not the case here. Savvides says that he came onto the pitch not to threaten anyone but to pull his team out of the game so in effect, by his own admission, he stopped the game from being completed so whatever the situation is for Savvides punishment, PAOK's punishment is unavoidable as being the team responsible for the game not being completed.

So you decide NOW is the time to show authority and PAOK will be the EXAMPLE!  With this one swift and yet to be thought of punishment we will cleanse the league and behold all presidents will tremble in fear.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be so, I'm saying that you have the second largest city in Greece feeling like it's being targeted just because well all of a sudden for the first time in 3 decades their team is competitive and has an owner that actually pays the players on time.  Get where I'm going with this ?  It just makes the situation worse, not better.  Have any punishments harsh or otherwise improved Greek soccer in the last 25 years ?  Is there one you think will work on this occasion ?  I mean really work.  Go on throw the book at them!  Something tells me no matter how harsh the penalty all you're going to do is piss off half a million people.

If they can be wise (ha ha I know) and punish only Savvidis maybe then we may be going in the right direction.  I hold little hope that will happen though and all that's going to happen is Savvidis after getting smacked down will just come back harder only this time he'll probably do it less publicly.  After all, the man has meetings with Putin on occasion.

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Ivan is a mafiozo.  You don't become a multi millionaire in Russia with close ties to the Putin and government positions without being one.  Sure he's a proud Pontio, Greek...but still a Mafiozo.   When he fist came to PAOK he thought he can make changes as a gentleman....now it's time to get into some Gangsta $hit.

Screen_Shot_2018-03-13_at_12.36.55_PM.pn

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If his gun is licensed, what's the issue?  For the majority of his time on the field it was concealed.  It was out only when his jacket came off, but I still haven't seen any video of him with his jacket off, only the 3-4 pictures that are circulating.  

When you carry a gun everyday of your life (which he probably does) you don't remember you even have half the time.  

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16 hours ago, Alphonse said:

The two biggest issues have come from Toumba though... how is Olympiakos responsible for sabotaging the whole thing?

I am just curious how you guys keep pointing the finger at others.

The game vs Olympiakos did not happen because of one PAOK fan, it was then dealt with horribly, and we know the reff stuffed it but but you did get the 3 points back which IMO may have cause some of the reason this happened vs AEK. 

In the game vs AEK the match did not finish because the PAOK chairman invaded the pitch carrying a gun on him and threatened the reff and Dimitriadis

Your fans for the most part have been very good in all this which is a positive and I hope FIFA, UEFA & EPO look at the real instigators in this, which is a shame the well behaved fans are all getting punished now - as usually happens in Greece

Can I ask you one question? How long have you been following Greek football?

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Yeah I also don't think the gun is a big deal.

He should not have had it in the stadium, but i think it is not directly involved with this incident.

 

For instance i don't think the gun and him storming onto the field are related.

 

However he will get strong penalties for having a gun on a football pitch rightfully so.

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4 hours ago, Brklyngrk said:

Three things should happen: 1) VAR should be instituted in Greece (take the call away from the refs on the pitch) - this can be even outsourced for the first year or two 2) Any players harassing the refs should be carded  3) Any ownership/management stepping onto the pitch should receive a fine/suspension.

As far as VAR is concerned, the only team that wanted it in place this season was PAOK. Savvidis even offered to pay for it after the other owners turned it down due to being too costly. Believe me, some big teams in Superleague don't want VAR.

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Nobody threatened anybody with a gun and I even question if there was a verbal abuse by Savvidis. That's just media controlled by POK team(s) and political parties frenzy the last two days.  

The issue is political and economical. Ever since Savvidis took over PAOK and started investing in northern Greece. 

And you are right jvc. The league will be sabotaged on weekly basis. Greek football has been sick for decades, but suspending the season for few weeks and then restarting it will accomplish absolutely nothing unless drastic changes are made.

UEFA/FIFA came to Greece to solve the issue after the Undersecretary of Sports called them in. If they decide to punish PAOK selectively as is pushed by the Athenian media, then once again nothing will be accomplished.

It needs to be a collective punishment for it to have any effect.

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55 minutes ago, AchillesHeel said:

 

Its actually against the law to carry `a weapon into a football game and by law he should have been arrested right there and then but the police were afraid of causing a riot and getting their asses beat...and you do realize that carrying a concealed weapon is an even more serious offence than carrying one out in the open? Few countries in the world are as tolerant and lackadaisical towards firearms as the U.S.

I'm not familiar with the laws, but if you think owners in all leagues don't have armed security your kidding yourself.  My point was that when you carry a concealed weapon daily, you sometimes forget it's on you and do silly things like take your jacket off (your only concealment) and running around like a fool.

 

Seriously???>>>pretty funny though.

I was only being half serious. He's definitely a mofiozo....if you think otherwise, once again, you're only kidding yourself....I don't think he'll be getting into any gangsta $hit though, that part was meant to be funny.

 

I don't take the Greek League serious enough to actually have well thought out 5 paragraph debates about it.  It's been a joke for 40 years, and it will be for years to come.  Some of you guys take this thing way too serious.

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1 hour ago, AchillesHeel said:

Its actually against the law to carry `a weapon into a football game and by law he should have been arrested right there and then but the police were afraid of causing a riot and getting their asses beat...and you do realize that carrying a concealed weapon is an even more serious offence than carrying one out in the open? Few countries in the world are as tolerant and lackadaisical towards firearms as the U.S.

True, but that has not prevented others bringing guns to the Greek stadiums in the past, ranging from team owners to league presidents. The issue has not been dealt with it then. and we have problems  at present as a result. The biggest problem in Greek society and Greek football is that laws exist, but they are selectively or seldom enforced.

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1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

Can I ask you one question? How long have you been following Greek football?

1995

You guys continue to surprise me, it's actually quite pointless how long I have follow Greek Football for, I know of your writing well Blackhell and your tv stuff which I love, I have not just come on board Greek football.

My post you have quoted clearly states why I asked you the questions I did but you guys don't see the big picture. I know the history and I know OSFP's juganought of the league. I expect they lose the 3 points vs AEK

Bravo to Savvidis for doing what I am looking at PAOK to do - take so responsibility without putting a blame or deflecting it on others!!!! 

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3 hours ago, Bananas said:

So you decide NOW is the time to show authority and PAOK will be the EXAMPLE!  With this one swift and yet to be thought of punishment we will cleanse the league and behold all presidents will tremble in fear.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be so, I'm saying that you have the second largest city in Greece feeling like it's being targeted just because well all of a sudden for the first time in 3 decades their team is competitive and has an owner that actually pays the players on time.  Get where I'm going with this ?  It just makes the situation worse, not better.  Have any punishments harsh or otherwise improved Greek soccer in the last 25 years ?  Is there one you think will work on this occasion ?  I mean really work.  Go on throw the book at them!  Something tells me no matter how harsh the penalty all you're going to do is piss off half a million people.

If they can be wise (ha ha I know) and punish only Savvidis maybe then we may be going in the right direction.  I hold little hope that will happen though and all that's going to happen is Savvidis after getting smacked down will just come back harder only this time he'll probably do it less publicly.  After all, the man has meetings with Putin on occasion.

Did you forget what Panathinaikos has copped??? My god people!! I’m trying to not get involved but some of the things I’m reading... 

Savvidis forced a match to be abandoned, PAOK will be punished for this weather you guys like it or not or try convince yourselves you won’t.

Whats a shame is how good the fans were despite the one idiot in the OSFP game.

For the sake of Greek Football they need to act on this right away.

As much as you guys want to talk about the past it’s not gona get you anywhere. The “authorities” have really only started to hold some accountability the last few years. PAO has been heavily punished as a result, you can’t escape this.

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8 hours ago, DunfermlineAthleticPAOK said:

PAOK are being made out to be the bogeyman here but the system is so corrupt and has been broken for so long that it had to boil over at some point. TBH when you go back and look at previous incidents, then what happened on Sunday night was nowhere near the worst and I am actually surprised that in years past, clubs have not just gone "whats the point?" and given up totally due to being sick and tired or the same crap every year. 

Ask yourself what the difference is now in 2018 rather than any of the past 20+ years? In my honest opinion, it's clear why this is getting so much attention and faux outrage. Savvidis has come in and kicked the hornets nest big time and spoiled the equilibrium. God only knows what he was thinking on Sunday night and he deserves to get punished big time to stop things like this happening again.

The players and fans should not be punished for this sorry mess. The money men and people with 'power' in Greece have caused this and its been coming for a long time. Funnily enough, up until Olympiakos fans stormed the pitch, this season was passing without major incident and seemed to be fairly contested with games and the league being decided on the pitch.

Why anyone would want to be a ref is mystery but especially in Greece. They lost total control with the farcical way they handled the situation.They are over dramatic and get far too animated which only makes it worse.  Saying that, the way AEK's players and bench reacted was pretty disgraceful referees need to be more decisive and stronger mentally... i guess it's easier said than done though.

Very good post and on the money.

You make a key point about the money men and people in power in Greece... for me this is the real issue, a huge lack of common sense, calmness and leadership. The curruption and anarchist culture in Greece has killed football IMO.

Big point you make, until the OSFP incident with cops at the AEK game the season was going fine, and following that incidents at Toumba in the two games we have spoken about by only some people have created chaos because the Greeks can’t handle situations and in a timely manner. 

EPO needs a leader, the current president is useless, frankly, I think people from abroad need to come in and actually run the game in Greece as I can’t see them changing to be able to handle situations that go a little haywire, it just becomes one big mess

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You guys wrote great posts and forgive me if I duplicate your thoughts.

All those who are "crying" again for the bad PAOK, would do the same thing in any case. If the horrible referee would count the goal and PAOK had won 1-0, you would crying that PAOK is the halifi because the three points were returned to us. You would find a way to continue the propaganda against PAOK. Because no one of you can tolerate PAOK winning the championship.

AEK fans... Remember some shootings twenty years ago inside your members club.

Panathinaikos fans... Remember your own president back in the day...

Olympiakos fans... No need to say anything.

Savvidis did not threaten AEK players and his bodyguards were trying to cool him down. No one attacked the p u s s i e s who were entering the field from the very first minute of the game. PAOK lost from AEK in OAKA 1-0 in the details and AEK would lose in Toumba in the details. But of course someone has to continue the circus so PAOK does not get this championship.

And by the way, Lyberopoulos scored offside goal in the cup final in 2011. This was not a petsino cup? But last year's PAOK cup is a petsino cup, right? And then you want us to take you seriously. Καλά έκανε και σε πηδούσε ο Ολυμπιακός όσα χρόνια έπαιζες μπάλα βλαχόμαγκα Λυμπερόπουλε που τώρα θα μας το παίξεις και Παναγία.

Araujo could have scored? Yes! As Prijovic could have scored in the first game in OAKA and have the match finish 1-1. PAOK lost from Olympiakos 1-0 without being worse than them. In fact we had better chances than Olympiakos. But, PAOK is not allowed to win neither Olympiakos or AEK in Toumba. It's a crime to win them and it's a crime to win the championship. That's the story for me. And Savvidis has to explain himself only to PAOK fans (as he did) and not to the mafiozoi Melissanidis, or Marinakis, or anyone else from the corrupted football system.

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2 hours ago, jvc said:

It's not PAOK that I want punished....It's the Greek football system.   If there's stiff penalty against Savidis I'm fine with it....but if they continue on business as usual after that....that will accomplish nothing.  I want Greece banned from European football now....2 years minimum.

Bullshit. As soon as the incident happened you have been saying that PAOK should be relegated 

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29 minutes ago, Alphonse said:

Savvidis forced a match to be abandoned, PAOK will be punished for this weather you guys like it or not or try convince yourselves you won’t.

PAO has been heavily punished as a result, you can’t escape this.

In a normal country PAOK would get punished, yes. However, in a normal country we would have some good referees to begin with and not those clowns who are surrounded by AEK officials and players for 5 minutes and don't do anything about it like sending them off the field. In a normal country the guys from this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Greek_football_scandal, especially Marinakis to name just one, would have faced a very high punishment, but we all know that Marinakis et al. got away with it. 

Moreover, since this is Greece, I am baffled as to why you are so confident about PAOK getting punished. You are forgeting how corrupt Greece actually is. It might turn out that Savvidis gets punished as an individual with a heavy monetary fine (in order to tell UEFA/FIFA that the situation has been dealt with) while AEK loses the game on paper for refusing to restart the game. Also do not forget how badly written the Greek law is, everything is possible in this case. It is undeniable that Savvidis has good relations with SYRIZA and the police as well as with the president of the EPO. Not to mention the fact that Greece is a weak country facing a deep economical crisis for years now. I wouldn't be too sure that Greece actually screws someone who invests millions of Euro in this corrupt sh**hole. Savvidis investments (in football as well as in other sectors) are worth millions of taxpayer money, he is a goldmine for the bankrupt Greek economy. Oh and since I heard from AEKtzides that the FIFA will come to aide them. Are we talking about the same FIFA that decided to have the world championship in Russia and Qatar? The FIFA I know has even more corruption scandals going on than Olympiakos, and AEK expects them for help? I am not convinced that they can expect some real help here, but we shall see. 

Listen to what Raptopoulos says if you want a realistic view about the μπουρδέλο Greece actually is: 

Now is the time we will truely see if Savvidis is actually a χαλίφης. Isn't it ironic? Those who accused Savvidis of being a χαλίφης for months now must fear that their own accusations are not actually true. Haha I like that. 

Oh and since no one talked about the football we saw, here are a few words: The two best teams in Greece played against each other, and instead of having an interesting match with box to box offensives, all we saw were two mediocre teams who were afraid to make a mistake. Honestly, Lucescu showed in this particular game that he is everything but a genius, waiting far too long to throw Biseswar in, while his Limnios experiment has not worked out and he wasted a complete half-time for this. Seriously, we would have not this discussion right now if Biseswar had started at the beginning of the second half since he alone improved PAOK's offensive massively. 

But I guess I should switch to the Premier League, La Liga or the Bundesliga to see some real football. Greece is only interesting if you like to see chaos and anarchy, mixed with screw ups and corruption from all sides, oh and don't forget the gruesome football. Greek football really is a sh**show.

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I think emotions are running a bit high here for some people. We should all take a step back and re-evaluate the direction of this discussion. We're all Greek and want a strong, competitive Super League right?

I get it that we're all just some randoms on an internet forum but things in Greek soccer get way too tribalistic for its own good, and I'm seeing it play out right now

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