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Macedonia Name Dispute

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11 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

The inverse also applies here....saying that they are northern macedonia (the "northern" will be dropped just like the "former yugoslav republic" and "FYROM" was dropped) implies that they have territorial claims to parts of Greece....and when you look at the neighbors in the region its a shitstorm waiting to happen.

I hear you, but you're not saying anything new, and you're not saying what you'd have done 30 years ago when these people wanted a new independent country away from Serbia (Yugoslavia) and invented a long lineage to boost their case.  You'd probably have done exactly what all the previous Greek govs did..... reject anything with the name "Macedonia."  Here we  are today with a deal that denotes the geographical area, and hopefully this will be added to the already established name (and language) of Macedonia.

The only other solution is to invade and occupy (maybe ethnic cleanse?) that country. The whole world has moved on and has already recognized them.

If they have territorial claims any name you come up with won't change their minds. Would it?

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16 minutes ago, Epicurus said:

I hear you, but you're not saying anything new, and you're not saying what you'd have done 30 years ago when these people wanted a new independent country away from Serbia (Yugoslavia) and invented a long lineage to boost their case.  You'd probably have done exactly what all the previous Greek govs did..... reject anything with the name "Macedonia."  Here we  are today with a deal that denotes the geographical area, and hopefully this will be added to the already established name (and language) of Macedonia.

The only other solution is to invade and occupy (maybe ethnic cleanse?) that country. The whole world has moved on and has already recognized them.

If they have territorial claims any name you come up with won't change their minds. Would it?

Read my post....Macedonia should never have been on the table to begin with....the name became "established" because the politicians were incompetent to protect it and agreed to let them use it in whole or in part. Its troubling that you can only see 2 choices of either compliance or invasion....the job of diplomats is to find the territory between these 2 extremes and it would have been an easy job 30 yrs ago to do so. Again today the skops are the ones who are seeking entry into the EU and NATO....they should be making concessions not Greece.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

.the job of diplomats is to find the territory between these 2 extremes and it would have been an easy job 30 yrs ago to do so. Again today the skops are the ones who are seeking entry into the EU and NATO....they should be making concessions not Greece.

I think they have found the territory between the 2 extremes...  But, please tell me what you would have done. I assume you'd say no to anything "Macedonia." Fine. Well, they did it 30 years ago, and they've managed to be accepted by the international community and even Greece's partners/allies. What would be your options?  EU and NATO, the US, UN all seem to be fine with this "New Macedonia" name and all think that FYROM made all the concessions and Greece is being unreasonable.  You would do what now?

 

[Greece did what you are suggesting: no "Macedonia" name anywhere. Well after 30 years, here we are....]

Edited by Epicurus

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I don't think the Skopjans asked Greece about the name 27 years ago. So there was nothing to negotiate, nothing on the table so to speak.

The vast majority of Greeks don't want Skopje to use "Macedonia" in a name. But, I really don't see what Greece would have done. OK, maybe better diplomacy....  Effective diplomacy usually requires bargaining power...

Internally, Skopje leaders couldn't give in regarding the name. They were willing to lose economically by going against Greece, though the other important players who could have pressured FYROM began to lose interest over the years, and now the big players see Skopje gov as the responsible one who has made concessions regarding the name.

....

PS>If a country has territorial claims against another, names don't matter, as they don't change anything.

PS2>Could it be said that Greece has territorial claims if it considers Macedonia only Greek? [I don't think Greece does, but for the sake of argument...]

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lets build a wall,on the greek side we write macedonia, on the opposite side fake macedonia or not macedonia, gameover fake macedonia 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/16/2018 at 11:17 AM, Epicurus said:

I think they have found the territory between the 2 extremes...  But, please tell me what you would have done. I assume you'd say no to anything "Macedonia." Fine. Well, they did it 30 years ago, and they've managed to be accepted by the international community and even Greece's partners/allies. What would be your options?  EU and NATO, the US, UN all seem to be fine with this "New Macedonia" name and all think that FYROM made all the concessions and Greece is being unreasonable.  You would do what now?

 

[Greece did what you are suggesting: no "Macedonia" name anywhere. Well after 30 years, here we are....]

I'm no expert on the history of the area but it was in the 1930s that the name first started being used for Skopje. At the time it was under Nazi rule and later fell under communist rule and Tito continued to use the name for the region....obviously there were no discussions over the name and nothing could be done about it then. When communist Yugoslavia fell and the region seceded they decided to use Macedonia based on the fact that they were able to use it when the world was divided in 2 distinct spheres.

I'm no diplomat either but I think a 12 yr old can come up with better ideas to be able to discern between greek and slavic "macedonia"....I mean northern Greece is referred to nowadays as Greek Macedonia so why wouldn't they be called the republic of Slavomacedonia...and their language called Slavomacedonian. Is that to much? how about they spell the name in english the way they pronounce it : Makedonija....there are many different options that could have been taken but mysteriously weren't even suggested.... and it was up to Greece to protect their own interests...why would the EU or NATO give a crap about all this?

Edited by AchillesHeel

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^^^^^

I'd have no problem if they called themselves "Salvomacedonian".... But, again as many have said already, they didn't, and Greece for decades has been rejecting anything/everything that had "Macedonia" in a name.  I'm old enough to remember discussing the same point in the 1990s, that no word "Macedonia, Macedonja, or SalvoMakedonia" was acceptable to most Greeks and their gov. Those of us in the minority then were being called names for suggesting this very name or any name the showed that "Macedonia" was not Greek.  Macedonia was only Greek--as many still suggest.  

[Do those Greeks who don't want anyone else Macedonian mean that all Macedonia is only Greek?]

In the 30 years since, Greece lost the game....  Now you say the sacred ..word is acceptable to you for them to use if it starts with "Slavo"....  

I'm guessing that if the North M is rejected by Greece now, that country will be known as simply Macedonia.

 

On 6/17/2018 at 10:15 PM, AchillesHeel said:

I'm no expert on the history of the area but it was in the 1930s that the name first started being used for Skopje. At the time it was under Nazi rule and later fell under communist rule and Tito continued to use the name for the region....obviously there were no discussions over the name and nothing could be done about it then. When communist Yugoslavia fell and the region seceded they decided to use Macedonia based on the fact that they were able to use it when the world was divided in 2 distinct spheres.

I'm no diplomat either but I think a 12 yr old can come up with better ideas to be able to discern between greek and slavic "macedonia"....I mean northern Greece is referred to nowadays as Greek Macedonia so why wouldn't they be called the republic of Slavomacedonia...and their language called Slavomacedonian. Is that to much? how about they spell the name in english the way they pronounce it : Makedonija....there are many different options that could have been taken but mysteriously weren't even suggested.... and it was up to Greece to protect their own interests...why would the EU or NATO give a crap about all this?

 

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4 hours ago, athinaios said:

^^^^^

I'd have no problem if they called themselves "Salvomacedonian".... But, again as many have said already, they didn't, and Greece for decades has been rejecting anything/everything that had "Macedonia" in a name.  I'm old enough to remember discussing the same point in the 1990s, that no word "Macedonia, Macedonja, or SalvoMakedonia" was acceptable to most Greeks and their gov. Those of us in the minority then were being called names for suggesting this very name or any name the showed that "Macedonia" was not Greek.  Macedonia was only Greek--as many still suggest.  

[Do those Greeks who don't want anyone else Macedonian mean that all Macedonia is only Greek?]

In the 30 years since, Greece lost the game....  Now you say the sacred ..word is acceptable to you for them to use if it starts with "Slavo"....  

I'm guessing that if the North M is rejected by Greece now, that country will be known as simply Macedonia.

 

 

I was living in Greece off and on during the nineties and most regular folk were unaware that there was even a remote chance that name Macedonia could have been appropriated in the manner that it was....they always referred to that region as Yugoslavia and then as Skopje. When the Nazis and afterwards Tito named the region Macedonia it was because they were laying foundations for the future redrawing of borders. The way the new name FYROM was presented as an acronym even though it contained the word macedonia showed how shortsighted the political leaders of Greece were. and how little consideration they had for their people. As for who held the upper hand in negotiations as I mentioned before it was the Skops who are/were seeking entry into the EU and NATO and Greece is by far the biggest investor in their economy. When you have Pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria and Greek Macedonia in Greece I personally find it very vague and misleading for a country that's 27 years old to appropriate the name without distinction. I get the sense that many people on this forum think that this view is rightwing propaganda but I don't espouse any political beliefs....at all....and sorry but there was never any talk of all Macedonia is Greece by anyone (well I don't know where XA stands on this but they're just a bunch of bozos). Personally I get the feeling that we haven't heard the end of this saga especially since its probably the Skops themselves who will reject the name.

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3 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

I get the sense that many people on this forum think that this view is rightwing propaganda but I don't espouse any political beliefs....at all....and sorry but there was never any talk of all Macedonia is Greece by anyone (well I don't know where XA stands on this but they're just a bunch of bozos).

It's not that.  It's just that I can't be bothered with the screaming match this can easily turn into.

As for how this plays out, it's hard to say.  I can't see a referendum passing so I can't see a resolution.

As for the name itself I've never really cared for it per se.  The part that bothers is the appropriation of history.  If you want to call yourself Macedonian because that's the part of the world you live in, pfft, yeah if you like deluding yourself go for it.  But when that extends into irredentism, falsification of history etc. then that is unacceptable.

What will they teach their school children now ?  I assume they'll have to change the syllabus ?

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Part of this new naming deal also involves multiple changes to Skopje's constitution. Some of the changes are:

- their history has no correlation to ancient Macedonia

- that they are not descendants of ancient Macedonians 

- that ancient symbols are not to he used in any flags

- that their statues and monuments must clearly state that they belong to the ancient Hellinistic period

- that they have no territorial claims on Greek Macedonia 

- their education system to use newly re written books and materials that does not correlate their history with that of ancient Macedonia and to not have any maps showing Greek Macedonia as part of their Northern Macedonia

- that their Macedonian language is part of the Slavic language and has no correlation to the language spoken by ancient Macedonians 

Therefore the next generation of our northern neighbors will have a very different belief system about their history.

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On 6/16/2018 at 1:28 AM, AchillesHeel said:

The fact that there are 2.5 million greeks who consider themselves macedonians from a long ways back

50% of Greeks in Makedonia are descendants of Greeks that came from Thraki, Pontus and Asia Minor in the 1920s 

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Εχω την εντύπωση ότι  η πλειοψηφία μας δεν ξέρει την ιστορία μας και οτι οι γείτονες, στην πλειοψηφία τους,  δεν ξέρουν, δεν θα μάθουν και θα αρνηθούν να μάθουν την δική τους.  Η  ψευδής ιστορία πάντα είναι πιό γλυκιά από την πραγματική.

Οι γείτονες πιστεύουν οτι αδικήθηκαν και πράγματι αδικήθηκαν. Βέβαια, αν μπορούσαν, θα είχαν  αδικήσει  τους δικούς μας.  Οι χαμένοι κατά κανόνα αδικούνται και αρνούνται να ξεχάσουν την αδικία.  

19 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

....

Therefore the next generation of our northern neighbors will have a very different belief system about their history.

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The President of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; Gjorge Ivanov said on Tuesday he will not sign an accord settling a decades-old name dispute with Greece...

 

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Το πραγματοκό όνομα του  Gjorge Ivanov  είναι Γεώργιος Γιαννόπουλος.    Με αποτέλεσμα ο κίβδηλα ονομάζενος  Σλάβος να ηγείται της  κίβδηλης Μακεδονίας.  Προτείνω η κίβδηλη Μακεδονία να ενωθή  με τη Βουλγαρία μα το όνομα Δυτική Βουλγαρία και να τελειώση αυτός ο αχταρμάς.

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An interesting interview with FYROM Prime Minister Zoran Zaev:

 

 

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And this is the Greek propaganda regarding the meeting at Lake Prespa.

 

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On 3/22/2018 at 7:28 PM, SydneyPAOK said:

 

Ps - not only would there have been Slavs that were Hellenized over the the last millenia but Hellenes who would have also been Slavicized. Therefore there could be Skops (i would guess a small %) who could actually be descendants of the Ancient Macedonian Dynasty. 

 

From researching my family's history I have found that my family were Hellene who were slavicized, though I have no intention of telling them that; they like to believe the brainwashing done by the Bulgarians.

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14 hours ago, skopia77 said:

From researching my family's history I have found that my family were Hellene who were slavicized, though I have no intention of telling them that; they like to believe the brainwashing done by the Bulgarians.

E.g. the family name of the head of the Greek church is Liapis. His last name suggests Albanian ethnic origin. His ethnic identity is Greek. Actually all the Christian Arvanites in Greece were and are considered to be Greeks of Albanian origin.

In the Peloponnese, next to the sea, there is a village named Yalova. A few years back I met a Turkish lady who was blonde. I asked where she was born; she told me in Yalova, a city, in Turkey.

So there we are:

  1. We have Turks, e.g. Erdoğan, whose ethnic origin is Greek; Erdoğan's grandfather lived in Potamya (in Greek potami=river and potamya= place next to the river) in Turkey, near the Black sea.

  2. We also have blond Turks born in a Turkish city with a GreekoSlavic names (if I am not wrong, Yalova comes from the Greek Yalos= seashore and ova=place).

I have no idea for the ethnic-identity of your ancestors. It would interesting to know:

  1. The names (first and last name) of your ancestors

  2. If they were followers of the Bulgarian exarch or of the patriarch in the City

  3. What language they used at home.

  4. If they lived in a village, can you name a) The name of their village and   b) If their village had a teacher and/or a doctor; if so, who was providing him/them? Greece or Bulgaria?

 

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3 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

I have no idea for the ethnic-identity of your ancestors. It would interesting to know:

  1. The names (first and last name) of your ancestors

  2. If they were followers of the Bulgarian exarch or of the patriarch in the City

  3. What language they used at home.

  4. If they lived in a village, can you name a) The name of their village and   b) If their village had a teacher and/or a doctor; if so, who was providing him/them? Greece or Bulgaria?

 

1. I don't mean to sound brash but I don't want to give their names though the last name of my grandfathers side of the family use to be greek then it was changed to slavic version and after the civil war was changed back to the greek version, from what I know my grandmothers side of the family her last name was never changed it always stayed as the greek version.

2. Im not 100% on this but I think it was the patriarch of the city 

3. from what I'm told it was bulgarian in my grandmothers home though I don't know for my grandfather's home

4. the village was skopia near florina. I think at first the teacher & pope was greek but then the bulgarian militia came in and killed the teacher and pope, they then put their own people in.

  the first part of the video explains the history of the village if you are curious

 

 

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2 hours ago, skopia77 said:

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bashibozuk
Tried to wipe media. I did not know how to delete it.

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1. I am not a policeman and you do not have to answer any of my questions.

2.  H Skopia of Florina was known as Ανω Νεβόλιανη prior to 1928.

3.  The name Νεβόλιανη is believed to be Slavic; In the Kathimerini we read  the following for another village with the same name:

Το πότε κτίστηκε το χωριό δεν είναι είναι γνωστό. Ξέρουμε μόνον πως προϋπήρχε της κατάκτησης της Θεσσαλίας από τους Τούρκους το 1393. Η επικρατέστερη εκδοχή είναι πως κτίστηκε μεταξύ 11ου και 13ου αι. από γεωργοκτηνοτρόφους που κατέβηκαν εκεί από τη σημερινή Σερβία μετά τον 11ο αι., εξ ου και το σλάβικο τοπωνύμιο Νιβόλιανη. Οι ντόπιοι θεωρούν ότι Νιβόλιανη σημαίνει ουράνια πόλη. Ομως ο Γιάννης Κορδάτος στην «Ιστορία επαρχίας Βόλου και Αγιάς» γράφει τα εξής:

«Ο Vasmer ετυμολογεί αυτό το τοπωνύμιο από το σλαβικό Nevoljane που θα πει κακοτοπιά, μέρος φτωχό και επικίνδυνο. Αλλοι, όμως, που ξέρουν καλά σλαβικά μού είπαν πως σημαίνει σκλάβοι-δούλοι, άρα Σκλαβοχώρι. Οι παλαιοί πάλι Νεβολιανίτες παραδέχονταν μεν πως το όνομα του χωριού τους είναι σλαβικό, μα του έδιναν τη σημασία Ουρανία».

Therefore it is plausible that  at some time the population of the Skopia was Slavic.

 As for you, if you are Greek subject and feel Greek you are (in my opinion at least)  Greek.  Look at the Gagauz in Greece.  They are Turks who became Christians and they feel Greeks.  No problem!

 

Edited by Bashibozuk
Typo

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What follows may be informative.

The data that follow were copied from a page, “Οικισμοί της Φλώρινας που αρχίζουν από Γ”, of Δημήτρη Λιθοξόου). The majority of Greeks considers him a lesser Greek. Lesser or not, Lithoxoou's data appear to be true and informing. According to the data listed by Λιθοξόου:

  1. χριστιανικός πληθυσμός: 480 εξαρχικοί και 1.040 πατριαρχικοί Βούλγαροι. Λειτουργία ενός εξαρχικού σχολείου με ένα δάσκαλο και 35 μαθητές και ενός πατριαρχικού σχολείου με δύο δασκάλους και 27 μαθητές [Brancoff1905]

  2. Σκοπιά (Άνω Νεβολιάνη), 140 ξενόφωνες οικογένειες, όλες δεδηλωμένων σλαυϊκών φρονημάτων [Στατιστική 1932].

  3. Σκοπιά, 1.691 κάτοικοι, εκ των οποίων 1.100 ήταν σλαυόφωνοι. Υπήρχαν 800 άτομα μη ελληνικής συνείδησης, 300 ρευστής και 591 ελληνικής [Στατιστική 1945].

  4. Μεταξύ 1903-1915 μετανάστευσαν από το χωριό στις ηπα και κατά την εκεί άφιξη τους στο Ellis Island δήλωσαν στις αρχές εθνικά Μακεδόνες  36 άτομα.

    Unless I am wrong, the names (listed by Lithoxoos) of the 36 immigrants were Slavic.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bashibozuk said:

What follows may be informative.

The data that follow were copied from a page, “Οικισμοί της Φλώρινας που αρχίζουν από Γ”, of Δημήτρη Λιθοξόου). The majority of Greeks considers him a lesser Greek. Lesser or not, Lithoxoou's data appear to be true and informing. According to the data listed by Λιθοξόου:

  1. χριστιανικός πληθυσμός: 480 εξαρχικοί και 1.040 πατριαρχικοί Βούλγαροι. Λειτουργία ενός εξαρχικού σχολείου με ένα δάσκαλο και 35 μαθητές και ενός πατριαρχικού σχολείου με δύο δασκάλους και 27 μαθητές [Brancoff1905]

  2. Σκοπιά (Άνω Νεβολιάνη), 140 ξενόφωνες οικογένειες, όλες δεδηλωμένων σλαυϊκών φρονημάτων [Στατιστική 1932].

  3. Σκοπιά, 1.691 κάτοικοι, εκ των οποίων 1.100 ήταν σλαυόφωνοι. Υπήρχαν 800 άτομα μη ελληνικής συνείδησης, 300 ρευστής και 591 ελληνικής [Στατιστική 1945].

  4. Μεταξύ 1903-1915 μετανάστευσαν από το χωριό στις ηπα και κατά την εκεί άφιξη τους στο Ellis Island δήλωσαν στις αρχές εθνικά Μακεδόνες  36 άτομα.

    Unless I am wrong, the names (listed by Lithoxoos) of the 36 immigrants were Slavic.

 

 

Thanks, this information on the settlements of florina is really interesting; where could I find more about this and would it have records of the land people owned or births?

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  1. If you google “Mετονομασίες οικισμών Mακεδονίας” you will find several lists of villages whose names were changed.

  2. In the well organized countries there are offices (cadaster or cadastre= κτηματολόγιο) where records of ownership of land are kept. It is generally believed that these records are not accurate; a notary once joked that if these records are accurate, Greece is bigger than Brazil.

  3. Births are reported to the town hall/δημαρχείο.

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On 3/22/2018 at 6:44 AM, Soprano76 said:

Fokida.. in some xorio up in the bouna, small place.

wow.. i also come from fokida lol. we might end up as long distant relatives with you, blackhawk and tantra lmao 😄😄 

Edited by Boxou

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