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Nationalism in Greece

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It's been customary that the best student of a school gets to carry the national flag during a parade his/her school participates in. As you may know, yesterday on 28th of October, it was a national holiday with parades throughout the country. I've heard that in 2 of them, the best students were denied this honor because they were not ethnically Greek. One of those students is from Afghanistan and the other is ethnically Albanian. The boy was allowed to march without the flag, but the girl in Santorini wasn't because a dozen fascists intervened before the parade started resulting in the cancellation of the parade after parents took their kids home fearing violence.

This is not the first time such things have happened in Greece. What do you think?

Personally, I feel it's a disgrace to deny any student any honor, or discriminate them, based on factors like race, gender, ethnicity, religion.

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Ο γραμματιζούμενος και θερμός υποστηρικτής της ανεξιθρησκείας Αδαμάντιος Κοραής (Σμύρνη 27/4/1748 – Παρίσι 6/4/1833) ήξερε πολύ περισσότερα γράμματα από αυτά που ήξεραν όλοι μαζί οι επαναστημένοι Ελληνες.  Το άγαλμά του βρίσκεται έξω από την Πρυτανεία του Πανεπιστημίου στην Αθήνα.  Στο λύκειο της Χίου που  κληρονόμησε την βιβλιοθήκη του έχουν προτομή του.

Η Ελλάδα όμως είναι γεμάτη με γλυπτά του Κολοκοτρώνη και των τοπικών επαναστημένων.  Η ιδέα δε των επαναστημένων,  όσον αφορούσε την ανεξιθρησκεία, συνοψίζονταν στο «Τούρκος μη μείνη στο Μοριά μηδέ στον κόσμο όλο.  Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν να εξαφανιστούν οι Μουσουλμάνοι από τον Μοριά και να πάνε στον Παράδεισο (η αλλού) πρόωρα.

Η 25-η Μαρτίου (σημαδιακή μέρα kai για τους Ορθόδοξους) είναι Εθνική εορτή.  Για ποιό λόγο  να παρελαύσουν σε Εθνική εορτή και όσοι δεν ανήκουν στο Ελληνικό Εθνος;

Τελικά γιατί να κρατάη την σημαία ο καλύτερος μαθητής;  Βλέπε και Κοραή σε σχέση με τον Κολοκοτρωνη, τον Μπότσαρη και τον Καραϊσκάκη.  Αν θέλουν να τιμήσουν κάποιον, ας τιμήσουν κάποιον που προσέφερε ανιδιοτελώς κάτι στο κοινωνικό σύνολο.

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I understand that it is making people feel some kind of way that the country is hosting many non Greeks, but if these kids earned the right as top students to carry the flag, what kind of message are we sending them (at such an impressionable age to boot) by denying them what they worked for fair and square? I think this type of alienation is what has caused many problems among them homegrown terrorists in France...it is not a good look. Academics should be a safe haven from this ugliness, and cooler heads should prevail and be above certain matters.

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As for the parents who incited the trouble, why not put that energy into making your child a top student, instead of dragging others down? I guess that might require a bit more effort or owning up to your own shortcomings as a parent...I feel bad for the kids, and the youth in Greece as a whole. Kathe persi kai kalytera it seems.

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On 31/10/2017 at 4:06 AM, Tzatziki said:

I understand that it is making people feel some kind of way that the country is hosting many non Greeks, but if these kids earned the right as top students to carry the flag, what kind of message are we sending them (at such an impressionable age to boot) by denying them what they worked for fair and square? I think this type of alienation is what has caused many problems among them homegrown terrorists in France...it is not a good look. Academics should be a safe haven from this ugliness, and cooler heads should prevail and be above certain matters.

Tzatziki you are wrong. Right now they are claiming the Flag bearer through a draw.

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Look This might sound Nationalistic as f*ck Im kinda open minded with the whole refugee thing and I have acutally volunteered to help some Syrians here in Crete settle. Nothing too much in to stuff just travelled with a co students car at the village they were "assigned" and showed them where everything is and just showed them some of us Greeks ain't ultimate douches. (note that they actually were happy to rebuilding their lifs here in Greece and u ll understand what I mean by it later in the post).

But this is getting out of hand.

School stuff says this Amir 11 year old boy refused to go inside the church with the Greek flag because his religion does not allow him to do so.

So, why should our national celebration lose it's religious point of view (even though I am a sort of Atheist since I study chemistry, the Greek Heroes of our wars fought not only for Greece but for the Christian Orthodox world as well. ΠΑΤΡΙΣ ΘΡΗΣΚΕΙΑ ΟΙΚΟΓΕΝΕΙΑ was one of he motos.
So, since the student did not want to go in to the church but still wanted to hold the flag, I see no way how his aspect is 100% Legit , while some Nationalists (who obviously are scums) who disagreed to this are the devil himself?

Rocking his house is obviously not the answer, although that's what happened. Some extremists found his house and threw rocks at it. But he should either settle to going in a Christian Orthodox Church, since he wanted to keep the flag, or he should have say "I am not a Christian, I cannot go into your churches, I would like to drop from the duty of flag bearer."
Both sides were wrong. I believe the school could have informed his parents about the necesity of the church in the whole event.
So after people throwing rocks at his house he was transfered to a new house at a better neighbourhood with everything paid and extra money for every member of his family(400 for each). I  wouldn't mind it honestly it;s a good move but when it's made while Greek Families of 4 or 5 or 6 pass a whole month with 400 euros in total now that's where the problem begins.

We are way too sensitive torwards refugees, yet we are used to seeing Greeks fight poverty and living in miserable situations. Now that's what I think needs a stand for. Because currently if you re a war refugee and poor, you have better care than a Greek citizen who has been taxpaying his whole life. Of course these two issues are not connected. Greeks arent poor because refugees come. But noone takes a stand for the Greeks, yet everyone will take the side of the refugees. 

+Ι read a traveller's blog with pictures who visited Syria. Half of Syria (Pro Assad part of Syria) is actually not in war at all and people live their every day lifes normally. I can't find it I ll look for it though but I wanna show it to a friend as well. Anyways, since pro assad Syria are leaving peacefully in the half o their country, shouldn't that make you wonder why someone who is not pro-islamic state of syria , would wanna leave? Sure a few find it as an excuse for a better life but wouldn't it actually be reasonable that most of them are Isis fanatics?
 

I am saying nothing with certainty. I am the first who agrees that I don't know , and probably will never know the whole truth. But The fact that everyone pities a refugee just because he is a refugee , no matter his background story, while a honorable Greek with children who will serve this country in the near future (not talkin about army only) getting ditched so that we have enough money to provide someone who consider us a mere stop in his journey to a better paying European Country, is pathetic.

Europe is dying and hopefully something good will come out of this in the end.

Edited by Rockafeller Skank

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Αν δεν κάνω λάθος,

  1. Στην Ελλάδα σήμερα ο μέσος όρος είναι ~1.3 γεννήσεις/γυναίκα.

  2. Ο μέσος όρος ηλικίας των Ελλήνων είναι ~44 χρόνια. Το 1950 ήταν ~26

  3. Οσον αφορά στις εκτρώσεις, η Ελλάδα παίρνει χρυσό στην Ευρώπη και χάλκινο στον Κόσμο

  4. Για κάθε γέννηση στην Ελλάδα έχουμε 2+ εκτρώσεις

  5. Υπολογίζεται οτι αν τίποτα δεν αλλάξει, το 2080 ο πληθυσμός της χώρας θα είναι ~3.5Μ

Από όλα αυτά συμπεραίνω οτι

  1. οι πρόσφυγες/μετανάστες είναι το μέλλον της χώρας και

  2. ο Μιχαλολιάκος που έχει μόνο ένα τέκνο είναι εθνοπροδότης όπως και ο Führer, το ίνδαλμά του, που έμεινε άκληρος.

Τελικά, σ' αυτή την ιστορία της σημαίας και των σημαιοφόρων, και σε κάθε άλλη ιστορία, έχουμε όλων των ειδών τις απαντήσεις μολονότι δεν ξέρουμε το ερώτημα.

Π.χ.,  Γιατί ασχολούμαστε με τον Εθνικισμό στην Ελλάδα;.  Δεν θα ήταν καλύτερα να  συζητήσουμε τον Εθνικισμό εκεί που ζούμε;

Π.χ., ο μετανάστης στην Αμερική δεν μπορεί να γίνη πρόεδρος.  Πάσχει το σύνταγμα της χώρας από τρισκατάρατο και ανίατο εθνικισμό;  Και τι είναι  το χειρότερο;  Να μην σου δίνουν την δυνατότητα να κρατήσης την σημαία η να μην σου δίνουν την δυνατότητα να γίνης πρόεδρος  επειδή δεν ήσουνα πολίτης της χώρας από την μέρα που γεννήθηκες;

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9 hours ago, Bashibozuk said:

Αν δεν κάνω λάθος,

  1. Στην Ελλάδα σήμερα ο μέσος όρος είναι ~1.3 γεννήσεις/γυναίκα.

  2. Ο μέσος όρος ηλικίας των Ελλήνων είναι ~44 χρόνια. Το 1950 ήταν ~26

  3. Οσον αφορά στις εκτρώσεις, η Ελλάδα παίρνει χρυσό στην Ευρώπη και χάλκινο στον Κόσμο

  4. Για κάθε γέννηση στην Ελλάδα έχουμε 2+ εκτρώσεις

  5. Υπολογίζεται οτι αν τίποτα δεν αλλάξει, το 2080 ο πληθυσμός της χώρας θα είναι ~3.5Μ

Από όλα αυτά συμπεραίνω οτι

  1. οι πρόσφυγες/μετανάστες είναι το μέλλον της χώρας και

  2. ο Μιχαλολιάκος που έχει μόνο ένα τέκνο είναι εθνοπροδότης όπως και ο Führer, το ίνδαλμά του, που έμεινε άκληρος.

Τελικά, σ' αυτή την ιστορία της σημαίας και των σημαιοφόρων, και σε κάθε άλλη ιστορία, έχουμε όλων των ειδών τις απαντήσεις μολονότι δεν ξέρουμε το ερώτημα.

Π.χ.,  Γιατί ασχολούμαστε με τον Εθνικισμό στην Ελλάδα;.  Δεν θα ήταν καλύτερα να  συζητήσουμε τον Εθνικισμό εκεί που ζούμε;

Π.χ., ο μετανάστης στην Αμερική δεν μπορεί να γίνη πρόεδρος.  Πάσχει το σύνταγμα της χώρας από τρισκατάρατο και ανίατο εθνικισμό;  Και τι είναι  το χειρότερο;  Να μην σου δίνουν την δυνατότητα να κρατήσης την σημαία η να μην σου δίνουν την δυνατότητα να γίνης πρόεδρος  επειδή δεν ήσουνα πολίτης της χώρας από την μέρα που γεννήθηκες;

These  are all speculations that have little to none real life application.

They are all based on small time calculations.Greece is currently under crisis and people find it quite cheaper to ditch a kid before it is born than force it to have it a life under poverty (or at least close to it).

Greece will not be in crisis forever and definately not until 2080.

I expect no more than 4-5 years. Greece will still be in debt but the economy is already having glimpses of upgrade, despite emplyers taking advantage of the low number of jobs and paying employees illegally and extremely low.

I personally do not live in U.S.A. but I live in Greece. But what I understand from your comment is that Nationalism also exists in U.S.A. we re talking about a country that most liberals (at least that's what they wanna be - or the closest thing to what they actually wanna represent anways) actually praise and always try to impose that we need to follow a few of their social policies.
People will start talking about how education and travelling will broaden your mind and make you more open to the "different" the "other". But really. Is a bit of National pride, Nationalism if you wanna call it, that bad? I am not talking about extremists burning people bec ause they belong to a different race, or forcing refugees to leave our city/village because "they gonna steal our jobs" of course.
But, from the beginning of time we learn about tribes. And how tribes fought each other and concedered each one a threat. By the years passing someone would probably think that "we are now more developped and society is upgraded so your point is nonexistent". Is it though? Im pretty sure we have more wars(and more bloody ones) and far more hatred torward each other, hoping for some nation's fall in order to benefit ourselves.
People wanted to fit in somewhere, and protect that somewhere from anything strange/threatening. It's a good thing to add more people who actually NEED our help in our social system becauase on the long run these people will be the ones who will be there for this country(not talking about army), because this country was there for them when they needed it.

+An interesting theory that a non-Syrian refugee stated is that many of the men (probably explains why more than 2/3 of them are men of puberty age or older) come in Europe to find females.

In Syria and many arab world countries polygamy is a thing. This means the rich dudes end up with many/most of the hot women of their country while the poor ones are left without women and the analogy is quite in favor of the men. I don't know if it's true or not, but a similar incident occured to a girl I know. When she was volunteering to hand food to some of them in refugee camps many of them were actually groping her. I suppose cops being around and actually protecting her and her Group probably didn't allow them to go beyond that. 

Im not gonna lie though , It seems a bit far stretched for me,  someone to make all this travel just for some pu$$ey. 

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5 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

These  are all speculations that have little to none real life application.

Αν πιστέψουμε την ΕΛΣΤΑΤ ο δείκτης γονιμότητας έπεσε κάτω από το 2.0 το 1983.  Στη συνέχεια έπεσε κάτω από 1.5 το 1987.  Εκτοτε κόλλησε κάτω από το 1.5.  Γάτες οι Ελληνίδες, προείδαν οτι η πτώχευση θα ερχότανε το 2010!

 

Edited by Bashibozuk
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Low and below replacement birth rates are unrelated to the economic crisis.  They were low decades before hand and not just in Greece but through out Europe.  As to why they are what they are, I'm sure there are many and varied theories.

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On 6/11/2017 at 8:40 PM, Bashibozuk said:

Αν πιστέψουμε την ΕΛΣΤΑΤ ο δείκτης γονιμότητας έπεσε κάτω από το 2.0 το 1983.  Στη συνέχεια έπεσε κάτω από 1.5 το 1987.  Εκτοτε κόλλησε κάτω από το 1.5.  Γάτες οι Ελληνίδες, προείδαν οτι η πτώχευση θα ερχότανε το 2010!

 

you got me here I suppose.

I suppose there ar enumerous reasons as why people stop making children.

Increase of Homosexuality and the Homosexuality acceptance. 

Increase of Greeks leaving Greece for jobs.

Crisis definately can't be totally irrelevant.

However, being a student currently I have heard too many times the words "I don't wanna have children in the future/ I don't wanna get married." Sure these are bull$hiet as at some point your opinions on that matter change when u mature, but not all of them will I suppose.

Hunting a career right now is a thing for women too.

 

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It is not about getting you or anyone else.  To the best of my knowledge and understanding the tendency to have on the average fewer children is a phenomenon that precedes the crisis.  Clearly, the crisis did not help.  It just made a bad situation worse.  Whoever is interested in the relevant numbers may consider looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece.

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The question of population is multi faceted.

From an environment perspective what is happening with birth rates in the developed world is a good thing.  From a self preservation perspective as well as leaving a world that isn't half destroyed for future generations, a slow and gradual decline in population should be encouraged.

But from an economic perspective a declining population is definitely not good.  Our current economic mode almost requires a growing population because its success is predicated on continual growth.  Countries like Germany are "cheating" right now and kicking the can down the road by accepting higher and higher rates of immigrants to sustain their economy.  And to be fair all the first world countries will probably be able to keep doing this for many decades to come.  But if that must be the case, they can't then complain about the immigrants being undesirable.  Beggars can't be choosers.

As for why the rates have been declining for decades, it's hard to say.  I don't think it's just a question of economics.  I mean it plays a role but if that's the case why do countries like Japan and Germany have an issue with birth rates.

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What is the problem of bringing in people to a country whose population is declining? ..  Is it their color of skin? Their culture? Their ethnicity?

I don't think that a population decline is necessarily a bad thing. I believe humanity doesn't need 10 billion people. At any rate, rapid increases or decreases present problems since transitions are abrupt.

If you want to maintain your population, and you don't have 2.2 children per couple (to maintain population size), then you have to bring in people. So, the key is how to do it. You do it smartly and not by creating ghettos but by making the newcomers feel patriotic.*  Many immigrants to the US become more patriotic than older groups. The story of the creation of the modern state itself is based on giving benefits to people who in turn become nationalists/patriots.

As for having fewer kids, because women seek to further their careers.... well, so what? I'm all for that. They have no obligation to churn out many children to satisfy anyone's grand nationalist desires. In my view, women should pursue their own happiness the way they seem fit... and now they have that opportunity which was denied since ..ever. 

* when children want to carry the country's flag and you have knuckleheads saying "only Greeks can carry the Greek flag" is NOT the way to make people call a country their "home."  Anyone who calls a country their home has created an emotional attachment and a commitment to their adopted/adoptive country. Greece should have a smart immigration policy. Admit, even invite those who want to stay and prosper, and, why not, have a better life than in their country of birth.

PS. If the neo-fascists of today knew Greek history they would..........   Hmmm, forget it, they'd still be morons, because they don't care for facts; they have an infantile obsession to feel superior to others, though the truth is they're dumb as bricks.   So, yeah, many of those who fought for Greek independence (like the Αρβανιτες) wouldn't be accepted as Greeks today by those morons.

 

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The powers that be have create a world such that having children is detrimental for a woman's career.  Not always but it's fair to say as a rule.  But then they complain that women and families aren't having enough children.  As always, you can't have your cake and eat it.

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If you wanted to bring every human to the level of affluence and comforts of modern life, you wouldn't be able as you'd need 3+ Earths to do it..... (not enough resources). So much of humanity is still suffering in the 21st c.  Maybe technology will make things easier, but population growth has to stop at some point.  One way to reduce population growth is to raise the status of women!

 

 

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21 hours ago, Bananas said:

The powers that be have create a world such that having children is detrimental for a woman's career.  ...

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy by the established powers/elites....  Actually such "powers that be" would want to maintain the old order since anytime you empower one group (like women), there's a power shift by definition.  {I may paraphrasing your point}

I'd want the best for my sister, wife, girlfriend, etc, to pursue their own bliss. If it's a career they seek, so be it. At least in the last 50 years, in the advanced countries, this is a possibility for them.  By the way, the birth control pill (or other methods) empowered women. In the US, before the 1970s, many professions that required a loooong commitment of time were dominated by men. Delaying becoming a mother, allows women to get education, jobs, etc. Indeed, one of the reason (glass ceiling and prejudice are others) women aren't advancing as fast as men is that they take time off for motherhood.

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It's not that it's a conspiracy.  My point is that women now do care about having a career and then you have politicians and leaders trying to encourage them to have more children "for the good of the country".  A bit rich.  And then you have people not wanting immigrants but want their economic prosperity to stay the same.  A bit rich also.  Everyone wants their cake and to eat it too, instead of looking at an issue holistically.

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My point is that women now do care about having a career and then you have politicians and leaders trying to encourage them to have more children "for the good of the country"......

Correct but only in a narrow frame.  Namely:

Men are drafted, women do not.  Men care about careers and money as well.  Therefore one could:

1) Draft women that chose not have 2+ children and have them serve for 9 months. 

2) When the births do not exceed the national target, tax the women/families who/which failed to have enough children and give the money to the patriotic  mothers/families.

3) Consider that refusal to procreate is treason and send the unpatriotic ladies/men to gaol.

4) In my opinion though, the best way to solve this problem is to have a lottery each year in which the national targets were not met; the lottery winners, men or women,  who could and chose not to procreate would be decapitated.  

Alexander taught us how the Gordian knots are undone; not by pussyfooting

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On 11/11/2017 at 7:53 AM, Bashibozuk said:

4) In my opinion though, the best way to solve this problem is to have a lottery each year in which the national targets were not met; the lottery winners, men or women,  who could and chose not to procreate would be decapitated.  

Interesting idea.  It could even be commercialized as a pay per view event.  I bet the ratings would be through the roof.

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On 11/10/2017 at 4:53 PM, Bashibozuk said:

My point is that women now do care about having a career and then you have politicians and leaders trying to encourage them to have more children "for the good of the country"......

Correct but only in a narrow frame.  Namely:

Men are drafted, women do not.  Men care about careers and money as well.  Therefore one could:

1) Draft women that chose not have 2+ children and have them serve for 9 months. 

2) When the births do not exceed the national target, tax the women/families who/which failed to have enough children and give the money to the patriotic  mothers/families.

3) Consider that refusal to procreate is treason and send the unpatriotic ladies/men to gaol.

4) In my opinion though, the best way to solve this problem is to have a lottery each year in which the national targets were not met; the lottery winners, men or women,  who could and chose not to procreate would be decapitated.  

Alexander taught us how the Gordian knots are undone; not by pussyfooting

ya vol herr commandant

(I hope you're kidding)

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Στην σημερινή Καθημερινή,

http://www.kathimerini.gr/934090/interactive/epikairothta/ereynes/3eplhrwnan-xreh-poylwntas-to-nefro-toys

διαβάζουμε τα εξής:

« .......Η κόρη μου κάθε Πάσχα ανάβει κερί γι’ αυτόν  (τον δότη), να είναι καλά στην υγεία του».

Τον Δεκέμβριο του 2009 ο Έλληνας νεφροπαθής πλήρωσε 120.000 δολάρια και υποβλήθηκε σε μεταμόσχευση. Τέσσερα χρόνια αργότερα συνελήφθησαν ο Κοσταρικανός γιατρός που του έκανε την εγχείρηση μαζί με άλλους τρεις συναδέλφους του και ένας Ελληνας ιδιοκτήτης πιτσαρίας στο Σαν Χοσέ, ο οποίος φέρεται να λειτουργούσε ως μεσάζοντας.    ............

Μέχρι και τα μέσα Οκτωβρίου, η λίστα αναμονής για νεφρικό μόσχευμα στην Ελλάδα αριθμούσε 1.219 ασθενείς, οι οποίοι περιμένουν συνήθως έξι χρόνια μέχρι την επέμβαση. Η δωρεά οργάνων φέτος κυμαίνεται στα περυσινά επίπεδα, αλλά παραμένει μακριά από τον ευρωπαϊκό μέσο όρο που είναι τριπλάσιος από τον ελληνικό.

Ανακαλώ λοιπόν την προηγούμενη πρότασή μου και προτείνω την ακόλουθη:

Αντί για να τους κόβουμε το κεφάλι να τους αφαιρούμε ένα νεφρό (αν βέβαια έχουν δύο υγιή). 

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