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Greece - Croatia ( Round 2, 2nd Leg - 12 Nov. 2017, Giorgos Karaiskaki, Piraeus)


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10 minutes ago, Boxou said:

maybe because he is simply an average football player? the fact that no one of the last 5-6 olympiakos coaches kept him in the squad speaks volumes. 

There are lots of average players, but Gianniotas gives it a go every time he gets a shot, gives us a rare glimpse of flare and creativity, and he even scored as a sub a couple of games ago. Deserves a spot on the roster.

Edited by Argy
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3 minutes ago, Bananas said:

I get what you're saying but man oh man whenever this guy is on the pitch it's like he's just snorted some cocaine!  Maybe he's not suited to playing 90 minutes.   Maybe you can get the best out of him as a substitute which seems to be his forte.

or he is only playing with passion for the nt. but you can't rely on such a guy. if he comes back to olympiakos next year prove himself as a rotation player or even starter then i am in. but not at the moment. thank god there are not any other official games around because i couldn't deal watching skibbe's selections.

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1 minute ago, Argy said:

There are lots of average players, but Gianniotas gives it a go every time he gets a shot, gives us a rare glimpse of flare and creativity, and he even scored as a sub a couple of games ago. Deserves a spot on the roster.

from whom is he going to get that spot? lazaros and mantalos start for aek, donis for stuttgart, and mpakasetas is not a winger to say he will get replaced by him. his natural position is behind the striker. even pelkas is a starter in paok and i don't like him that much tbh. on the other side gianniotas is a bench warmer in a mid table second spanish division club.

so, who do you think deserves it more?

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8 minutes ago, Boxou said:

from whom is he going to get that spot? lazaros and mantalos start for aek, donis for stuttgart, and mpakasetas is not a winger to say he will get replaced by him. his natural position is behind the striker. even pelkas is a starter in paok and i don't like him that much tbh. on the other side gianniotas is a bench warmer in a mid table second spanish division club.

so, who do you think deserves it more?

He takes it from impotent Mantalos who should not be starting. 

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Just now, Argy said:

He takes it from impotent Mantalos who should not be starting. 

oh yeah let's put mantalos on the bench, an important part of a europa league team to start this average man. 

i mean we would to qualify in the world cup with B LEAGUE players? says a lot for the state of our football. gianniotas shouldn't even be in the talks for a call up, let alone the bench. 

hopefully with mantalos, karelis and donis in, vellios, gianniotas and diamantakos will be kicked out once and for all :)

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14 minutes ago, Boxou said:

oh yeah let's put mantalos on the bench, an important part of a europa league team to start this average man. 

i mean we would to qualify in the world cup with B LEAGUE players? says a lot for the state of our football. gianniotas shouldn't even be in the talks for a call up, let alone the bench. 

hopefully with mantalos, karelis and donis in, vellios, gianniotas and diamantakos will be kicked out once and for all :)

Mantalos is really bad with the NT. I want him to be good too but he was given so much opportunity and has done nothing. 

You feel so strongly about Gianniotas out when he was the only one who showed flare yesterday and guts.  Not Fortounis who roams the pitch praying no one will pass to him because he will panic. 

Edited by Argy
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The fact that we are so low in the fifa rankings means we will have two difficult opponents in our group which will make it a lot more difficult to qualify for the euros.. I understand the nations cup also will give us a chance but even still it won't be easy and it's not a given that we will make it.. Our Fifa ranking are really going to hinder our opportunities.. As far as the NT I do think we have some good pieces but as long as our Mid is so weak and consists of  Samaria,Taxi, Tziolis we are never going to be able to create enough and it will never allow us to take that step forward as a team. There is No question I think we need to play with two attackers going forward as it makes it very easy for teams just to focus on a Mitro without a second option.. I'm also afraid that we are wasting the years of Socratis and Manolas that's why we need to fix this asap.. I We do have a good core of players but now we need to introduce some young guys and get rid of the dead weight.. Donis, Karelis,Mitro give me hope up front and out back end is solid, our Mid will be the biggest issue.. Missing this tournament is a very tough pill to swallow as it's going to even more difficult when the tournament starts.. 

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34 minutes ago, J1078 said:

The fact that we are so low in the fifa rankings means we will have two difficult opponents in our group which will make it a lot more difficult to qualify for the euros.. I understand the nations cup also will give us a chance but even still it won't be easy and it's not a given that we will make it.. Our Fifa ranking are really going to hinder our opportunities.. As far as the NT I do think we have some good pieces but as long as our Mid is so weak and consists of  Samaria,Taxi, Tziolis we are never going to be able to create enough and it will never allow us to take that step forward as a team. There is No question I think we need to play with two attackers going forward as it makes it very easy for teams just to focus on a Mitro without a second option.. I'm also afraid that we are wasting the years of Socratis and Manolas that's why we need to fix this asap.. I We do have a good core of players but now we need to introduce some young guys and get rid of the dead weight.. Donis, Karelis,Mitro give me hope up front and out back end is solid, our Mid will be the biggest issue.. Missing this tournament is a very tough pill to swallow as it's going to even more difficult when the tournament starts.. 

J, exactly....... and further, i was wondering if u or anyone else can explain this.   when i played our coaches all had different philosophies...but what they in common was allowing the mids to roam based on what the other team was showing us regarding formation, spacing etc.etc.etc.  they used to tell us "good teams can win 1-0 or 5-4 depending on the situation presented" so,

why dont our mids have this ability to shift the mentality and tactics?  are they lazy? are they stupid? do they lack confidence ot go forward? does the cpach tell them not to play deep?  is the formation limiting?   im not in the locker room so i dont know, but what is it about the selections that almost always results in a bunch of non dynamic statues out there that dont much of anything in terms of SOME creativity.   

did u c yesterday just how many times our guys were bunched up three at a time on the wing trying to get a simple 1-2 going? 

can u explain why?  and theories as to why our midfield is so below average? (other than they are just not that good, lol) thats to ogeneral a response --- we all know that already....

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Sad way to end things. Croatians sat back and gave us possession and yet we created nothing. Once again, poor passing, poor touches, and just an overall lack of ideas going forward. 

As others have pointed out, we are a team that lacks talent and depth. The midfield (as always) is the biggest challenge. We have guys who are not playing regularly for their clubs, others who are just poor/inconsistent at NT-level, and yet others still who simply aren't at this level. 

I don't think there's a magic fix. IMO the only one who acquitted himself well over these two games was Zeca. The others will need to prove themselves. I still think Taxi has the potential to be "the guy" as long as he has players around him to do the hard running (and assuming he can play consistently at club-level). 

I'd also like to see how we do with a fit Mitroglou AND Donis together in the same line-up. 

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1 hour ago, J1078 said:

The fact that we are so low in the fifa rankings means we will have two difficult opponents in our group which will make it a lot more difficult to qualify for the euros.. I understand the nations cup also will give us a chance but even still it won't be easy and it's not a given that we will make it.. Our Fifa ranking are really going to hinder our opportunities.. As far as the NT I do think we have some good pieces but as long as our Mid is so weak and consists of  Samaria,Taxi, Tziolis we are never going to be able to create enough and it will never allow us to take that step forward as a team. There is No question I think we need to play with two attackers going forward as it makes it very easy for teams just to focus on a Mitro without a second option.. I'm also afraid that we are wasting the years of Socratis and Manolas that's why we need to fix this asap.. I We do have a good core of players but now we need to introduce some young guys and get rid of the dead weight.. Donis, Karelis,Mitro give me hope up front and out back end is solid, our Mid will be the biggest issue.. Missing this tournament is a very tough pill to swallow as it's going to even more difficult when the tournament starts.. 

You are absolutely right, but we were in the same situation before groups were set for WCQ and we ended up with Bosnia as our POT 2 opponent. Could have just as well been Switzerland, France or Italy though so we were fortunate. It's very much the luck of the draw. Poland was in POT 3 same as us but got Wales and Austria from POT 1 and 2 and ended up winning the group handily. 

Edited by Argy
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Exactly my point that's why I think even the euros will be difficult to make because if we ended up in Spain/Italy or France/swed/Neth or Port/Swiss or even Croatias group chances are we don't reach the playoffs at all this World Cup and that's what scares me regarding the euros as we may very easily have a a much more difficult two teams then this campaign.. 

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It'll very difficult, we better hope that we don't drop more in the rankings and fall to Pot 4 and have 3 formidable opponents to worry about. Good thing is top 2 teams make it automatically and there is also the Nations league route, which in all fairness will be extremely difficult to a) top the group b) win the nations league playoffs. 

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you think spain or france or germany  give a sh** who and what pot they are in?   this is the exact mentality that give us no shot agaisnt "bigger" clubs and as a result, we sit back, cowering hoping for a counter.... "weewewew i hope Italy or whoever are not in our pot.........." then what? u squeak in and get bounced in the first round? 

thats a loser's mentality..sorry. 

confidence boys, even borederline arrogance.....the moment u step onto the pitch you must believe you are better than you're opponent ---whether thats skill based or effort based, it does not matter...b/c if u don't you've lost before the game begins.....

we neeed to develop the youth with the idea they are as good as anyone, can compete with anyone and should NEVER fear anyone....period...

 

 

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22 minutes ago, bbaw said:

you think spain or france or germany  give a sh** who and what pot they are in?   this is the exact mentality that give us no shot agaisnt "bigger" clubs and as a result, we sit back, cowering hoping for a counter.... "weewewew i hope Italy or whoever are not in our pot.........." then what? u squeak in and get bounced in the first round? 

thats a loser's mentality..sorry. 

confidence boys, even borederline arrogance.....the moment u step onto the pitch you must believe you are better than you're opponent ---whether thats skill based or effort based, it does not matter...b/c if u don't you've lost before the game begins.....

we neeed to develop the youth with the idea they are as good as anyone, can compete with anyone and should NEVER fear anyone....period...

 

 

I agree with you 100% about loser mentality. We cannot go in hoping to park the bus and not lose, playing 8-9 defensive players in all positions. Look at Sweden, at best equal to us on paper, and they stand strong against Italy, not because they defended all game, but because they came to play with a winner's mentality.

The only thing I don't fully agree with you on, bbaw, is the fact that we shouldn`t be hoping to avoid other big clubs. Greece is not a superpower, so they are allowed to care who they land. We will never be at the level of Germany and Spain, but that doesn't mean we cannot do damage in a tournament. I don't think, realistically, it is a loser's mentality to be happy being part of a tournament. Doesn't mean that you don't want to advance as far as you can, but, for most teams, it is an honor just to be there. It is very difficult to make it nowadays, and, barring a handful of teams, it is very difficult to qualify from Europe. Just look at Italy who are on the verge of missing out. 

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The fact that a smaller Balkan country can produce top quality players and play football is embarrassing to us. Like I have said before Croatia has a bad league but there players are good enough to get scouted from a young age... we should have fielded 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 in first leg... we played with such a complex its not even funny...Skibbe says we dont have enough strikers or midfield but it was shaky defense that blew first game and poor midfield choices. I still cant believe we lost this series like we are Moldova lol

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argy - agreed...very eloquently stated espcially the second paragraph...well said. but----

.of course being part of a tournament is important...my point is dont be satisfied with that....that should not be the goal (pardon the pun but its not a pun for us since we dont score lol) .....if i had a dollar for everytime i hear "we played well but lost" i blow a gasket...."U LOST !!! HOW IS THAT PLAYING WELL"   evry time commentator and "general" perception speaks Greece ALWAYS gets no credit....every now and then someone may say they are tough to beat but u know what im saying

look -------- i dont buy this "negative football" for a minute.....if thats what WINS then i dont care how negative it is....but u can play negative football, not out of fear for the opponent which we do --- but as part of an overall strategy that is the foundation of moving forward....

if ANYONE should move forward, its us....our D is great...right?  

but w ewill never be germany or france we we 1. dont think we can; and 2. the "we palyed well but lost" mentality prevails....

 

look at protugal and crotia ---- our size and shape yet vvery different perception in the outside soccer world

Edited by bbaw
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19 minutes ago, Argy said:

I agree with you 100% about loser mentality. We cannot go in hoping to park the bus and not lose, playing 8-9 defensive players in all positions. Look at Sweden, at best equal to us on paper, and they stand strong against Italy, not because they defended all game, but because they came to play with a winner's mentality.

The only thing I don't fully agree with you on, bbaw, is the fact that we shouldn`t be hoping to avoid other big clubs. Greece is not a superpower, so they are allowed to care who they land. We will never be at the level of Germany and Spain, but that doesn't mean we cannot do damage in a tournament. I don't think, realistically, it is a loser's mentality to be happy being part of a tournament. Doesn't mean that you don't want to advance as far as you can, but, for most teams, it is an honor just to be there. It is very difficult to make it nowadays, and, barring a handful of teams, it is very difficult to qualify from Europe. Just look at Italy who are on the verge of missing out. 

right on Jason....i cant either - these guys were so beatable. 

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we did have a midfield at one point. that was circa 2003-2005

zagorakis at bologna

karagounis at inter

katsouranis at benfica

stelios at bolton (when they were a premier league regular)

basinas at pao

tsiartsas at athletico

thats 6 high quality midfielders right there and they were always starting for their club.

now we have players that aren't even starting for club

Gianniotas = second division spain

Fortounis = sometimes doesn't even start for oly

Samaris = doesn't really start for Benfica anymore (was in top form 2 years ago getting a champions league MOM)

Zeca = played out of position but otherwise solid.

Staf = he's not a midfielder.

Tziolis = plays in saudi arabia

Tachtsi = isn't playing regular balla at oly still.

 

Night and day difference. If our players actually get playing time at decent clubs we have a future though.

2nd place and a loss in the playoffs wasn't terrible. There's always a silver lining. Remember we didn't qualify for the world cup before the we won the euro either. We were very close to qualifying this time.

Skibbe makes mistakes but if we don't get plagued with injuries I think we can even go through with him as when our players are in form and have few injuries he got results. He just sucks when it comes to improvisation when players are missing and he makes excuses rather than get creative.

 

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george dont forget vasilis karapialis, a guy who got fu**** by politics and Ieroklis  Stoltidis an awesome two mid who got snubbed from the national team by otto until the end....(id ont wanna go back too far)

but its no coincidence that the guys you mentioned were around at the time we won the euro, and kastourani , a very very clever high IQ mid, karagounis, basina and tsiatas were driving that team..Yes they were defensive but moved forward with some authority and purpose. 

so yeah we produce midfielders but last 15 years all overseas guys are defenders and an occasional stiker like machlas, gekas, mitroglou etc etc  i say this again because it cannot be overemphasized enough: these guys go to the foreign leagues and LEAD THE LEAGUE IN GOALS !    service service service  our mids either can't or dont b/c of coaches instructions. either way the results are clear. 

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