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Epicurus

Another Mass Shooting in the US

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We had another mass shooting in the US, this time in Las Vegas, the deadliest of its kind, until the next one of course. Our right to be safe is trampled by the right for someone to own military-grade weapons.

We had hoped that after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, Congress would act to pass some federal gun safety laws. Nothing!  The victims' stories and pictures in Vegas are beginning to circulate now. I'll leave you with the images of the children of Sandy Hook as a horrific reminder that how a political party and its leaders are essentially in the pocket of the gun lobby.

Edited by Epicurus
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Good time to invest in shares of gun companies.  Apparently sales increase as people become worried gun controls might be introduced.  Crazy world we live in.  Crazy yanks.

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People have been saying that if nothing happened after Sandy Hook (where 20 young schoolchildren were killed), nothing will happen after the Vegas shooting. Today, I read an article in The Atlantic by D. Frum (conservative, former GW Bush speech writer), who said actually gun laws ..loosen after a massacre. Of course, gun sales go up too. 

"This may explain why gun advocates insist that the immediate aftermath of a spectacular massacre is “too soon” for the gun discussion. They want the pain and grief and fear to ebb. They want ordinary citizens to look away. Then, when things are quiet, the gun advocates will go to work, to bring more guns to places where alcohol is served, where children are cared for, where students are taught, where God is worshipped. More killings bring more guns. More guns do more killing. "

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I guess the shooter was not a big fan of country music?

In all seriousness, what a senseless and cowardly act of violence...what the hell is the purpose of selling weapons like this to the public anyway? These arms are meant to kill multiple people in seconds. When has there ever been a case where there was anything good that came from civilians owning such weapons?

 

RIP to the victims and condolences to their loved ones.

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I've heard you can't buy such weapons over the counter and they were military grade weapons, is that true? Or can you buy absolutely anything in a gun store? Could one of you guys over in the US confirm this. 

Also if someone is mad enough to carry out such an act do you think banning guns would prevent him? Guns are banned in the U.K. But I'm pretty sure I could get my hands on one by this evening if I really wanted to

 

A man so skilled who evaded all that CCTV rigged up cameras all over his room like Jason Bourne and managed to sneak in all that weaponry undetected, I doubt a gun would have stopped him. 

Edited by js1000

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3 hours ago, js1000 said:

I've heard you can't buy such weapons over the counter and they were military grade weapons, is that true? Or can you buy absolutely anything in a gun store? Could one of you guys over in the US confirm this. 

Also if someone is mad enough to carry out such an act do you think banning guns would prevent him? Guns are banned in the U.K. But I'm pretty sure I could get my hands on one by this evening if I really wanted to

 

A man so skilled who evaded all that CCTV rigged up cameras all over his room like Jason Bourne and managed to sneak in all that weaponry undetected, I doubt a gun would have stopped him. 

You can't stop everyone deranged lunatic, but what I mean to say is that the amount of rounds that you can get off with an assault riffle vs a handgun is huge. Did you hear the shots going off in the video? It was mental. Different states have different laws about what kind of weapons are legal, and gun shows apparently are like a gun garage sale, it might be easier to get firearms at one of these shows than it is to get a drink depending on how young or old you look. 

 

This is an example of the legally modified AR-15 that was used by this maniac, all of his 23 arms found in the hotel were legally purchased. Why would anyone need a weapon like this in civilian life? The only purpose of this thing is to cause mass casualties in tragic attacks like this most recent one.

 

 

 

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In my conversation with people who don't want any restrictions to gun ownership and use, they say 2 things, after they mumble that "more education" is needed...

1. A bad guy with a gun is stopped by a good guy with a gun, meaning all the good people should be armed.

2. We need to have guns to defend our freedom, especially from the government.

In my judgement both those arguments aren't valid. For #2, good citizenship and democratic institutions is the best defense against authoritarian government. If we get to the point of the government coming after the people, it's too late. Gov. has overwhelming firepower nowadays.

As for #1, see this video:

 

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why do we only have a debate about gun control after a mass shooting when emotions are high and people react rather than think? 

I have no interest in guns but a gun ban would not have prevented the events in Vegas and a gun ban doesn't disarm criminals.

Didn't burglaries in Australia sky rocket after a gun ban? I'm sure our Aussie posters will correct me if that wasn't the case. 

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The idea of ordinary citizens in Australia owning guns is considered laughable, we don't need them for protection and quite frankly we don't care for them, unfortunately it seems to be a cultural thing in the US where it's bordered on obsession for many to own one.

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Whether it's 'considered laughable' or not it doesn't answer the question I posed regarding an increase in burglaries or not. 

Look at this report in the daily mail, talk about sycophantic, made me wanna vomit 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4950840/Hillary-Clinton-calls-gun-control-Tonight-Show.html#article-4950840

Edited by js1000

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^^^^

Ah, OK, it's about Hillary now.  I never would have guessed.....

Oh, and the fake news parade shows up on cue to muddle the issue further.

The claim about increased burglaries is fake, drawn from a pro-gun nut's unsubstantiated claims*. But even if it were true, having no massacres since the gun ban, and the reduction of people dying from firearms is a significant progress.

" The conclusions drawn in this piece were both premature and inaccurate, however. In a peer-reviewed paper published by American Law and Economics Review in 2012, researchers Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University found that in the decade following the NFA, firearm homicides (both suicides and intentional killings) in Australia had dropped significantly."

And, "Similarly, Dr. David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found in 2011 that the NFA had been “incredibly successful in terms of lives saved”....

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTW0Jj_BvVDOHLOn3Q2ayQthe more guns I have the more free I am?

 

* All sorts of crime has peaks and valleys. I can find any short period where I can find data to argue just about anything. Burglaries went up in Australia for a couple years after the gun ban but no direct correlation can be established. If seen over a long time, say from the gun ban till today, burglaries are significantly down. Again, mass shootings: zero.  It doesn't mean there won't be any ever, but what we see in the US is crazy and ever more crazy that very little to address the scourge has been done.

Edited by Epicurus
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I can't give stats on burglaries but I can say Australia hasn't seen a massacre since gun control came in, as I said it's a cultural thing, the idea of an ordinary citizen being in a shopping centre or walking down the street with a gun on them doesn't really compute, nor does needing one for protection, yeh of course something bad can happen anywhere/anytime, but we don't see the need for them and the chances of a sandy hook/vegas are slim to none. In the US you are guaranteed one regularly, and general gun violence is ridiculous over there. hell I've never seen a gun in person lol.

Edited by Greekoz
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 I'm not pro or anti gun I have no interest in them but the debate isn't simply guns bad, no guns good.

to quote Epicurus  if I may

'the claim about the increased burglaries is fake drawn from a pro gun nut's unsubstantiated claims' 

To disagree with Epicurus makes you a 'nut' 

in the same post

'burglaries went up In Australia for a couple of years after the gun ban' 

thats all I asked, whether this was the case or not I didn't have any figures so I asked.

to quote the post further

'but no direct correlation can be established' (between the reduction in burglaries and the ban)

So if you have a fixed position and stats don't support that position you call people that question your position nuts scream fake news and mock them with silly pictures. 

Could Someone therefore argue that there's no 'correlation' between a gun ban and a reduction in gun crime? 

 

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My personal opinion as to why some Americans hold guns dear is because they have gone from a country where you could draw your gun on a sheriff that came to your home to question you and prevent him coming closer to your home, the sheriff would put his hands up and respect the private property of the suspect. 

Now we have SWAT raids where police storm houses break down doors and start shooting and there are cases in America where even children and pets have been shot dead and the wrong houses have been raided in many cases. 

I think some Americans resent that which is why some of them don't want to be disarmed.

thats just my opinion of course I can't speak for pro gun folk. But I don't for one minute believe that the likes of Obama and Clinton who reaped such destruction over the world care about the safety of Americans when they talk about gun laws. 

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On 10/8/2017 at 11:24 AM, js1000 said:

But I don't for one minute believe that the likes of Obama and Clinton who reaped such destruction over the world care about the safety of Americans when they talk about gun laws. 

Is this another one of the right-winger sentences that ends up blaming Obama and/or Clinton for anything and everything?

Is this akin to the concept: "My fine-China dining set seems broken. I think Obama did it! Hillary too!" or "My cat scratched grandma. It's Obama's fault!" or "I forgot to put the ice-cream in the freezer and it melted. That damn Clinton did it again!"

Or maybe you care to elaborate why you end a posting with such a conservative uninspiring cliche.

For your information my friend, Barack Obama and the Clintons have done everything that the US Constitution affords them in an effort to pass laws reining in the uncontrollable and half-ass-legislated gun ownership that the Republican party espouses in the United States. In the United States - unlike countries with a Parliamentary Democracy - there is only so much that one person in the executive branch of government can do without the support of the legislative and judicial branches of government.

 

 

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On 10/8/2017 at 10:57 AM, js1000 said:

thats all I asked, whether this was the case or not I didn't have any figures so I asked.

Well, sometimes it matters how we frame a sentence or a question. This is your question: "Didn't burglaries in Australia sky rocket after a gun ban? " In your question, by starting your sentence with 'didn't'  you are looking for confirmation of a perpetual and lasting event. If the answer is 'yes,' one is to assume that the number burglaries went up and stayed high. If you were really curious for a statistical number you would have asked: "Did the number of burglaries increase immediately after the gun ban and do we still see that effect today?" Epicurus picked up on the framing of your question and called you out on posting questionable stories and presenting them as news (aka fake news) Whether a poster promotes unsubstantiated content knowingly or not is irrelevant. The result is the same.

By the way here's a graph for violent crimes in Australia, and here's a link where you can educate yourself (if interested).

 

crimestats.jpg

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Personally, I don't think anyone needs to own any guns, save a few exceptions like hunting, or law enforcement and security. I do realize the USA has a special relationship to firearms and I would never imagine that all guns will ever be illegal there. Handguns I can understand why people would own them. Assault rifles and automatic weapons serve no other purpose than to kill a great number of people as quickly as possible, only criminals and psychos have any real practical use for these in civilian life, and to allow the purchase of these is guaranteeing more tragic and senseless killings like the ones in Las Vegas. 

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On 08/10/2017 at 11:24 AM, js1000 said:

I don't for one minute believe that the likes of Obama and Clinton who reaped such destruction over the world care about the safety of Americans when they talk about gun laws. 

Why be so petty and disrespectful to the victims and their families at a time like this by using such a horrible act of violence to take political shots? This is poor form man, pick your spots...your point is not even relevant or contributing anything to this conversation.

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Disrespectful to victims really? Wasn't it Hilary Clinton that took the opportunity to score political points and exploit the shooting by calling for gun control on the tonight show? With Miley Cyrus wanting to give her a hug, and you talk of disrespect. I would say Ms Clinton to quote you was 'using such a horrible act of violence to take political shots'

Meanwhile we have Lazurus posting videos of Obama in tears proving he cares about mass shootings, no such tears for the Libyans Syrians and Iraqis he massacred. Crocodile tears if you ask me but you can be more objective when you're not welded to one side. A democrat would never call out Obomber, just like a republican won't call out Trump. 

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Bump stocks should be banned.

Assault rifles already are banned and the bump/slide stock is just a workaround to make a semi auto rifle act almost like a full auto rifle.

It was this workaround / gunhack that allowed this massacre to be so deadly. And to be honest before this shooting not many people knew or cared about bump stocks, gun owners and gun enthusiasts thought they were gimmicky, inaccurate, immature and silly.

They should be banned.

Regarding Gun Laws, I am an Australian currently living in the USA. I lean right / conservative. I think gun laws in the USA need major rework. I don't think it is the actual weapon that needs to be regulated though (although maybe it wouldn't hurt) but I think the person needs to be. Stephen Paddock was prescribed Diazepam - an anti anxiety drug. USA need to consider people taking any prescription meds for mental health should be regulated to some degree.

The source for my thinking is that if you look at NZ's gun laws, they have a strong background check and strong requirements that need to be met in order to get a gun licence, but once you have one you can actually get semi-auto and even FULLY auto weapons legally in NZ and they haven't had a massacre for 20 or more years.

 

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2 hours ago, js1000 said:

Disrespectful to victims really? Wasn't it Hilary Clinton that took the opportunity to score political points and exploit the shooting by calling for gun control on the tonight show? With Miley Cyrus wanting to give her a hug, and you talk of disrespect. I would say Ms Clinton to quote you was 'using such a horrible act of violence to take political shots'

Meanwhile we have Lazurus posting videos of Obama in tears proving he cares about mass shootings, no such tears for the Libyans Syrians and Iraqis he massacred. Crocodile tears if you ask me but you can be more objective when you're not welded to one side. A democrat would never call out Obomber, just like a republican won't call out Trump. 

You are all over the place, using this event to score political points is pretty trashy IMO. Calling for gun control is not playing politics it is being sensible.

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Calling for gun laws may be 'sensible' but that's just your opinion, others might not agree with that sentiment, it's called diversity of opinion, l thought folk on the left celebrated diversity. 

While calling for gun laws my not be political, going on the tonight show straight after a massacre to call for gun laws when you were leader of a party that has been trying to get stricter gun laws is absolutely political. Talk about exploiting  a tragedy.

 I wasn't being political I detest the republicans as much as I do the democrats all I said was that this debate is not as simple as gun laws = good and no gun laws = bad. 

If I was being political I would have said that Harvey Weinstein donated to the Clinton foundation or that Harvey Weinstein contributed large sums of money to Bill Clinton's legal fees when he had that scandal with Monica Lewinsky. But let's not go there...

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I don't remember if right after the mass shooting at the Orlando club done by Muslim man whether anyone tried to politicize the event...

Do you recall?

'Cause every time there's a mass shooting in the US, I hear many voices that instruct us not to politicize such event and give time to the victims and families....  Thoughts and prayers are what's needed during those times we're told.

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21 hours ago, js1000 said:

If I was being political I would have said that Harvey Weinstein donated to the Clinton foundation or that Harvey Weinstein contributed large sums of money to Bill Clinton's legal fees when he had that scandal with Monica Lewinsky. But let's not go there...

I don't think you have anywhere to go. Other than throwing smoke bombs and following Trump's behavioral leads (" If I was being political I would have said.. " which you went ahead and said anyway). Enough with conspiracy theories. Wanna talk politics? Talk about actual policies and how they affect everyday people lives.

Quote

I wasn't being political I detest the republicans as much as I do the democrats

Detesting political parties is by no means taking a political position. However (since you invited us into guessing games) if I were to guess, you're on the far right (or whatever label one slaps on that political spectrum thesedays) and you are a Nigel Farage 'admirer.' And Nigel Farage has repeatedly called for UK gun laws to be relaxed.

Since you are from the UK, why don't you enlighten us on what's happening in that area of the world in terms of gun laws and mass shootings? We would appreciate that instead of peddling conspiracy theories about Obama and Clinton. We've had enough of those.

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