Qarabag - PAOK ( EL - Group Stage - Matchday 4 / 03 Nov 2016, 22:05 EET )

[BostonThanatos]

11 hours ago, pash said:

I like how even the people who said we need to stick with coaches through rough patches are calling for his head. We're in the middle of the hardest stretch in the season. We'll lose. What matters is whether or not Ivic and company learn from this. On to Panionios.

I don't think we should fire him.  I just said he's not the coach for us.  This season is a bust anyways.  Might as well let Ivic get more experience at this point.  Maybe he can turn it around and have a respectable finish to the season and cup... Our goal right now should be what it usually is every year at this time.  Stay in the top 5 for playoffs and fight for the cup.

[BostonThanatos]

At the very least if we do decide to get a new coach, we need to get Ivic on the same page, get his replacement solidified and maybe finally treat an outgoing coach, ESPECIALLY someone who has contributed to much to our club, with a little bit of respect and dignity.

[Blackhawk]

The biggest mistake right now would be to change the coach. Since Ivan decided to go with Ivic at the start of the season, then he should provide him with full support. Just like Zagorakis did with Santos despite the fact that in his first season Santos as a coach we finished in 9th place. Changing coaches every 7 months is why we are at the position we are at and not making any progress.

[pash]

100% agreed

[Bananas]

11 hours ago, BostonThanatos said:

I don't think we should fire him.  I just said he's not the coach for us.  This season is a bust anyways.  Might as well let Ivic get more experience at this point.  Maybe he can turn it around and have a respectable finish to the season and cup... Our goal right now should be what it usually is every year at this time.  Stay in the top 5 for playoffs and fight for the cup.

Who is the coach for us ?  Whoever he is, he isn't coming to PAOK.  All we'll get is over the hill managers like Huub who when the pressure starts will just check out, resign and collect their nice big pay packet.  All things considered (just my opinion) our best choice is Ivic.

A real manager will want a real transfer budget.  Our transfer budget for the previous seasons are :-

- 2016/2017 1.4 million.  Only paid for Varela.

- 2015/2016 we actually spent a bit of money ~7 million.  Leovac (1.3m) Cimirot (1.3m) and Charisis (400K) are the only ones that really worked out.  Vellidis (750K), Sabo (700K), Olsen (650K), Chatziisaias (550K), Jairo (400K), Korovesis (380K), Antonis (330K) not so much.

- 2014/2015 870K.  Golasa (450K) and Mak (400K).

This is not the sort of budget that will attract a "gun" manager.

Add to that the problem of attracting players.  I really believe if Savvidis could get a gun striker for say 5 or 7.5 million that he knew would tear up the league, he would do it.  But would such a player come to PAOK ?

Regarding Qarabag, I think we underestimated them.  They are a better side than everyone made them out to be.

The team has changed a lot from last season ... just like every season.  Matos, Varela, Canas, Shakhov, Campos.  Regardless of if we like them or not, they are in the first 11 most weeks.  They're still learning to play with each other.

The PAOK squad is better in defense.  Varela, Malezas and Crespo have strengthened the back line.  In the middle we have Canas who is probably the one true DM.  Cimirot, Shakhov and Charisis for rotation.  All 3 are not quite a true DM or a true CM.  But Canas and Shakhov has added to depth.  We're still conceding goals (which team doesn't) but not the 3 and 4 we'd cop randomly like previous seasons.  The season is still early so they'll probably make me out to be an idiot.

It's up front where we are seriously lacking.  Our attacks are very predictable.  If I was an opposition coach that had scouted PAOK the only player I'd be wary of and make plans to contain is Rodrigues because of his explosive pace/dribbling.  All the rest, pfft, nothing to fear.  Just wait till Rodrigues gets injured or sold, and we'll be even more impotent in attack.  I like Biseswar but with his fitness issues he's unreliable.  He's only good as a sub to hopefully change the game.

On a side note, I'm probably going to curse him now that I've said it, but Glykos actually seems quite solid this year.

If we get a new coach it will all just start all over again like each season.

What I'd like to see if for us to stick with Ivic for at least 2 seasons.  In the off season pick up a midfielder, winger and forward that are true upgrades on what we have.  I'm tired of buying 10 players each season where most of them are essentially just a side grade.

The team has issues but there is definitely something there to work with.  It's a solid base.

[pash]

Totally agree. Also - losing Ivic will essentially guarantee ten new players.

Whether or not they make moves this winter, could give us a hint of just how serious Savvidis is about keeping Ivic.

[Bananas]

4 hours ago, pash said:

Totally agree. Also - losing Ivic will essentially guarantee ten new players.

That's the last thing we need.

[kozi]

What we need is QUALITY. This totally rests with Savvidis. Under him we have achieved sweet f all. He has delivered sh1t in the way of on field personnel and budget required to be successful.  (Off the park is a different discussion). He is too involved in the running of the club and his recent step up to president will only damage our club further. While he's actively involved in the running of the club we've got no hope of on field success. He either stumps up the cash to do the job properly or he just levels with the fans and says he's here for his ego only with no realistic hopes of winning titles. 

[Bananas]

What quality re kozi ?  What quality player is going to come to PAOK ?  Our options are try and discover a young player and hope some work out e.g. Charisis, Pelkas, Mystakidis, Cimirot.  Are any of them quality ?  Not really, not in the sense of being game changers.  They are squad players.  Cimirot is one level above the others.  Or you try and get a player who looks all right but for whatever reason in the past, wasn't given a proper shot e.g. Mak, Lucas, Rodrigues.  Some work out, others don't.  Or you try for a player that is quality but has been unlucky say with injuries e.g. Berg.  In our case, we tried with Maduro (peponi head) and Maartens.  Again, some work out, others not.  Although I am glad I don't have to see Maduro's head anymore.  That gave me nightmares.  This season ?  Only Matos and Canas you could say are quality.  They are very good solid players that were a proper upgrade in their respective positions.  The rest, pfft, whatever.  Maybe Varela will prove me wrong but the rest are just squad players as far as I can tell.  Biseswar, entaxi, he's got the skill but he can't run.

But the idea of getting a MAD player, fit, primed, good age, injury free, I just don't see it happening.  It's not a question of scouting, or money.  It's a matter of attracting the player to play in Greece and for PAOK.  A real quality player who ticks all the boxes won't come to PAOK if he has offers from elsewhere, and such a player will.

I actually think the philosophy under Arnesen was the right way to go.  Get young players, relatively cheap, and go from there.  Yeah we didn't win the title (were we meant to ?) but it could've been the beginning of something.  Instead the fans bayed for blood and got their sacrifice.  Anastasiadis the same.  He had us first in the league before the slump hit.  His reward ?  Another sacrifice.  Instead of the management saying "Hey, maybe he was onto something.  After all, he had the team in first position and title contention for 6 months before the slump.  Maybe he just needed a bit more depth.  Maybe a better defender or two".  But no, another firing.  Another round of new players.

This is a pattern.  It's not healthy.  It's not how you create a winning mentality.  It's not stable.  There is no magic bullet, try as they might in the PAOK administration.  The answer is hard work.  Good players get to be in the squad the following season.  Others that don't perform will be dropped.  Those in the middle watch your back.  We're bringing in players to compete.

You know, if I was a PAOK player right now, I wouldn't be all that worried about my future.  Because I know that it's pretty much a certainty that Ivic will be fired before I'm looked at being shipped off to a lower level club.  I know that if/when Ivic is fired, I'll just work my ass off for the new manager, so he can see what I'm capable of, and then once things settle, I'll just go easy, 3/4 pace.  You get what I'm trying to say ?  These players aren't SCARED.  They are comfortable.  I'm not saying they should be shaking in their boots, but they're too comfortable.

If Savvidis came out and said something like "Ivic is the manager for the next 3 years.  I don't care if we come 10th.  If we lose, I'll ask Ivic who isn't performing.  I won't accept anything other than 110% from every player.".  Then all of a sudden I'd be thinking, f--k me, I better pull my finger out because then I'd be scared for my position, my future in the squad.

You may think Ivic is the wrong man for the job,  Regardless, I don't care who we get, but he needs to stay for at least 3 seasons to mould something.  Otherwise, it's just restartitis every season.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Bananas

[Bananas]

Speaking of scaring the players.  Anyone players that don't give 110% get to have a lovely evening with this guy.

 

[BostonThanatos]

Exactly....:Like Melisanidis...he has no intentions of winning a title for the next few years.  Deep down neither does Savvidis.  PAOK is a pet project for him. He has bigger fish to fry and much bigger investments to worry about.  Savvidis is here for Business and Politics and to was ha little dirty money along the way.  PAOK is basically a store he's setting up for his neanderthal son to run so he stays out of trouble.

[kozi]

@Bananas Quality is in terms of having the right personnel capable of winning the league. It's pretty simple. Need good designs and appropriate budget to achieve this. Decision making is terrible under Saviddi. Budget is not adequate.  We have done nothing with him at the helm and never will unless he wakes up.

We needed a striker and didn't buy one. Why not? We let Kace go but we waste time with duds like Xarisi? Why? We get Thiam and hardly use him,  why? We let Jairo go so a dud like Mystakidis plays. Why? Tsimirot plays every game as if he's an untouchable but does bugger all. Why? We move heaven and earth to buy a spud like Varela. Why? 

We have a manager who lacking tactically. He has no idea how to play against teams that want to sit back against us. He has no idea about talent identification. 

For all of the above I blame Saviddis. 

 

 

[pash]

I don't think you're really responding to his main point - how do you get those players to come. It's really not as simple as saying "well the owner should just get them."

 

And as for Jairo specifically...he's made of glass and spends months at a time unable to produce.

[kozi]

2 minutes ago, pash said:

I don't think you're really responding to his main point - how do you get those players to come. It's really not as simple as saying "well the owner should just get them."

You're  kidding right?  How does anybody go anywhere? 

How do Turkish teams get the players?

Its called money.

Why should we put up with watching Klaus game in game out not touch the ball when all Saviddi had to do was buy someone....He had Lubos looking all pre season only to be left trying to do budget deals at the last minute. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bananas]

2 hours ago, kozi said:

@Bananas Quality is in terms of having the right personnel capable of winning the league. It's pretty simple. Need good designs and appropriate budget to achieve this. Decision making is terrible under Saviddi. Budget is not adequate.  We have done nothing with him at the helm and never will unless he wakes up.

We needed a striker and didn't buy one. Why not? We let Kace go but we waste time with duds like Xarisi? Why? We get Thiam and hardly use him,  why? We let Jairo go so a dud like Mystakidis plays. Why? Tsimirot plays every game as if he's an untouchable but does bugger all. Why? We move heaven and earth to buy a spud like Varela. Why? 

We have a manager who lacking tactically. He has no idea how to play against teams that want to sit back against us. He has no idea about talent identification. 

For all of the above I blame Saviddis. 

Savvidis doesn't have the sort of money you're talking about.  He's got money, but not a spare 20 million to blow on transfers each season.  It's either Savvidis or PAOK goes broke, because as a club we aren't self sustaining.  We could go to the bad old days of Batatoudis (weren't they fun) and Goumenos (a kathiki if ever there was one) so when I look at it that way, Savvidis  is all right.  Zagorakis actually did a pretty good job, and tried his ass off, but he rolled the dice on the club qualifying for CL and using that money to kick start the club.  When it didn't work, the fire sale began of players began.

I get what you're saying though.  But I don't see Savvidis spending the sort of money you're talking about.  You could argue he's "stringing us along" but I'd prefer him to the other possibilities.

[kozi]

I haven't mentioned any numbers. Considering we got 6 million from Lucas, not buying a quality striker, something we all knew we needed at the start of the season,  is simply an act of negligence on behalf of Saviddi and Lubos. Nothing to do with him having to dip into his pocket. 

Anyway,  I'm just expressing my frustration as the same thing keeps happening each year. I hope that somehow each new season will bring us something special but it's only a matter of time before reality sets in and it's just another wasted season. This season is yet another to add to the list. 

[Bananas]

1 hour ago, kozi said:

Anyway,  I'm just expressing my frustration as the same thing keeps happening each year. I hope that somehow each new season will bring us something special but it's only a matter of time before reality sets in and it's just another wasted season. This season is yet another to add to the list. 

Maybe I'm just numb to the pain ::chugs down on a bottle of whiskey::

Edited November 6, 2016 by Bananas