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Should Britain Leave EU?  

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  1. 1. Should Britain Leave EU?



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actually. i've been reading Greece is considering going to the almighty USD

 

Greece is considering leaving the euro in favour of the US dollar, Ted Malloch claims

The man tipped to be President Donald Trump's ambassador to the EU said  a 'Grexit' would be the best option for Greek people as the current situation is 'unsustainable'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/greece-latest-euro-us-dollar-ted-malloch-donald-trump-european-currency-debts-loans-us-ambassador-a7580806.html

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First, let's separate emotions (like "I hate the EU & IMF") from facts, and ideological preferences (anti-EU) from available choices.

So, the short answer is.... Greece should do what it its interest but also what it can afford. In other words, the remedy cannot be worse than the treatment. 

Based on what I know, Greece cannot afford to go back to the drachma. Shedding the debt and loans, sounds great, but bankruptcy means no more $$, and they'd have to import anything they need (oh, and they need just about everything) with a deeply devalued drachma, because I assume the country doesn't export enough goods (to raise hard currency) in order to buy what it needs, from fuels, to foods.

I'll write more later....

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On 17/02/2017 at 2:41 PM, athinaios said:

Yeah? But he doesn't admit he's a racist. In the good ol' days, they would admit it as a badge of honor.

Unfortunately when this is the man leading the political discourse in this country its a huge problem.

@Athens4, you make some good points.

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On 18/02/2017 at 5:38 PM, athinaios said:

First, let's separate emotions (like "I hate the EU & IMF") from facts, and ideological preferences (anti-EU) from available choices.

So, the short answer is.... Greece should do what it its interest but also what it can afford. In other words, the remedy cannot be worse than the treatment. 

Based on what I know, Greece cannot afford to go back to the drachma. Shedding the debt and loans, sounds great, but bankruptcy means no more $$, and they'd have to import anything they need (oh, and they need just about everything) with a deeply devalued drachma, because I assume the country doesn't export enough goods (to raise hard currency) in order to buy what it needs, from fuels, to foods.

I'll write more later....

You are thinking way too short term.

The effects of sticking with euro or leaving it are pretty similar in my opinion. Leaving it may be slightly worse IN THE SHORT TERM. However, in the long term things would be much brighter with a new drachma. Some people may ask, "Why doesn't Greece ditch the euro and take on the drachma again then?" One answer is that this would indeed cause chaos. Greece itself would probably have a setback of 20 years or so, while a brain drain would make the country suffer even more (not that many smart people haven't left the country already). The golden answer, however, is that no government would have the courage to take responsibility for the next 15 years of poverty. That's all what it comes down to. The current and past generation having to (unfortunately) suffer now so that their kids and grandchildren will have a better future.

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If I don't kill you, I'll put you in a coma for the next 25 years. If the latter, you'll wake up in time to really die, but you'll be happy to see your grand kids having a better future.:boom:

And, if  Greece turns into a Third World country, hey, you can't go any lower, the only way would be up.:cheerleading-151859:

I hear you, though. I just have a hard time accepting any treatment that can be worse than the disease.

I'm rich, I'm really, really rich. Believe me. I can buy my own country, but it'd be too much of a trouble for me. So, instead, I'll pay off Greece's debt. I'll do that after they follow your advice and they leave the EU and drop the Euro, of course.

Sooooo, now no debt and no memorandum!  YEAH! Life is good!!:fish-805431:  (maybe too good?)

 

Now, how soon do you think Greece would be in same predicament as now?

 

The cure to Greece's ailments is not go back to the drachma. It had the drachma for about 2 centuries.... (just saying)

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You are talking about mentalities in Greece. Politics, the people of Greece, society etc and I completely agree with you. In order for the successful re-implementation of the drachma, politics and people's mentality would need to change as well.

Thing is, I think starting from scratch is the only hope there is of people finally changing.

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We agree. No matter what currency they use, if they don't get their own affairs in order, Greece ain't recovering.
A sad but accurate description of the state of affairs is the "Super League".... Look how they've "managed" it.... Do you think without any UEFA supervision it would've been better? I mean I don't know, but I seriously doubt it. 

The sports leagues are run entirely by Greeks, right?

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the theory that things will be better in 20 years if we went to the drachma is impossible to sell..

 

20 years might become 30 or 40? and what will 'better' look like in 2057? Better than 2017 or better than 2004?

 

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A full 2 years after we voted to leave EU, the UK are still fully paid up members of the EU, like I said at the time the EU do not respect democracy and the UK government has no desire to leave, another wonderful illustration of how voting changes nothing.

I'm sure the academics on here will try to educate me and explain all the technicalities involved and deals and scenarios and border issues and people not knowing what they were voting for etc etc etc, but regardless of how you dress it up we will never be allowed to leave.

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The 29th of March came and went and low and behold the UK are still fully paid up members of the EU, gee I never saw that coming, who would of thought? Especially after Treeza said and reiterated that we're leaving on the 29th March(I'm sure she tried her best despite voting and campaigning for the UK to remain). 

Democracy in action, European style. Just ask the Irish the French and the Dutch that all had referenda ignored by this organisation.

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On 7/5/2018 at 4:27 AM, js1000 said:

I'm sure the academics on here will try to educate me and explain all the technicalities involved and deals and scenarios and border issues and people not knowing what they were voting for etc etc etc, but regardless of how you dress it up we will never be allowed to leave.

Since you ask....

When you marry you basically sign a contract. You can leave by negotiating who gets what. If you want to still have a relationship with your former spouse, you have to negotiate. You can say, I like to still eat dinner but don't want to pay... Your Irish, Scottish children that you want to keep under control still want to be in the family of your ..spouse. Wouldn't that complicate matters?

The UK can leave tomorrow morning, bright and early, but they'll be no deal with the EU. That'd be a hard Brexit.  Many in the Torry party want that.

As for democracy, it takes informed leaders and citizens to function. This is a complicated issue, and many, including some here, don't want to examine it closely--it takes time and effort to understand complicated stuff... It's simplistic (and irresponsible if you had to vote on it) to treat the EU membership like a gym membership.... where you can stop going to the gym at any time.  

Also, very important decisions, like amending the constitution say, require more than a simple majority. And, when you go that route, you should have a road map, a plan for what you're doing....  PM Cameron and his Brexiteers never did. The lied and promised a glorious UK outside the "leeches of the EU and their people"...

For many it comes down to animosity against the EU--greater European integration. Of course, they like they can have all the benefits and travel to the EU, but they don't like the reverse, from the EU.  They may also believe that Britons pay too much into the EU and take too many immigrants (not true but, heck, it's like Trump's fiction that sells..MBGA)

Edited by Epicurus

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.  PM Cameron and his Brexiteers never did. The lied and promised a glorious UK outside the "leeches of the EU and their people"...

PM Cameron campaigned to stay in, in fact he tried to terrify voters by saying leaving would be disastrous and the government spent £9m sending leaflets to every house urging people to vote remain. He left because he lost the vote and his position  became untenable, so they replaced him with May who also voted and campaigned remain.

Talking of lies remainers(who are the overwhelming majority in parliament and media) have said a no deal Brexit would lead to

Food shortages

Mass unemployment

Diabetics dying off because of no insulin

The port of Dover will seize up

The Irish will start killing each other again in Belfast

The £ would become worthless

The NHS will run out of doctors

Quote

For many it comes down to animosity against the EU--greater European integration. Of course, they like they can have all the benefits and travel to the EU, but they don't like the reverse, from the EU.  They may also believe that Britons pay too much into the EU and take too many immigrants (not true but, heck, it's like Trump's fiction that sells..MBGA)

 At present I'm able to travel to Morocco the US Israel Turkey etc. you're not seriously suggesting a no deal Brexit would prevent me being able to travel to France or Belgium that's just ridiculous. 

As for paying too much for all the wonderful benefits of membership I think £54m per day is far too much but that doesn't matter what matters is people voted out you can call it Trump fiction because you didn't like the outcome. 

Quote

As for democracy, it takes informed leaders and citizens to function. This is a complicated issue, and many, including some here, don't want to examine it closely--it takes time and effort to understand complicated stuff... It's simplistic (and irresponsible if you had to vote on it) to treat the EU membership like a gym membership.... where you can stop going to the gym at any time.  

Ok so it's not democracy because people were not informed, so what was the point of a referendum if people aren't informed enough to make the 'correct' choice and the outcome will just be ignored? 

Funny how I knew straight after the vote that it would be blocked. 

 

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On 4/1/2019 at 1:32 PM, js1000 said:

 At present I'm able to travel to Morocco the US Israel Turkey etc. you're not seriously suggesting a no deal Brexit would prevent me being able to travel to France or Belgium that's just ridiculous. 

As for paying too much for all the wonderful benefits of membership I think £54m per day is far too much but that doesn't matter what matters is people voted out you can call it Trump fiction because you didn't like the outcome. 

Ok so it's not democracy because people were not informed, so what was the point of a referendum if people aren't informed enough to make the 'correct' choice and the outcome will just be ignored? 

Funny how I knew straight after the vote that it would be blocked. 

 

You keep building straw men to make your points...  I didn't suggest "you" wouldn't be able to travel to Europe or Morocco... But as Britons liked open borders for them, they didn't like the reverse; didn't like eastern Europeans or.. Moroccans. Immigration was the top concern of 1/3 of those who voted for Brexit.

Another straw man:  Criticizing outcomes democracies produce as somehow not allowed! Yes, I'm saying the people made an ill-informed decision. It was not the first time nor will it be the last  A top Google search after Brexit: "What's the EU?" What, people can't be led to make bad decisions?  No matter what party/leader you prefer, you do say people made the wrong choice when they voted for those "you" did not support! Right?

Secondly, who the hell said, ignore "what the people said"?! Why can't the EU tell UK that, you leave you lose... You lose the trade privileges. You loose the markets the EU has negotiated access with other nations... etc. You want to leave, just go. It's been the Brits who are negotiating KEEPING their privileges.  

Thirdly, where did you come up with the notion the EU is blocking Brexit? Unless it's perverse logic you're employing... Oh, I'd leave the house but you're preventing me from leaving because you're not giving me money! Or, I'll go but still want to come in an enjoy the privileges of this household. Or, that I want to live on my own but maintain a room in your house! If you want to leave, just go. It's very similar to Tsipras's referendum...  (are you arguing that the EU denied Greeks their choice? Puleez. Greece could have left the EU the next day if it wanted...   Oh, but they (EU) wouldn't give us the money we needed to do that!   haha, I say.  Childish threats..)

As for the Irish problem, I didn't say the new border will result in violence, but it won't help. A key solution to the old conflict was integration of the two communities, starting by removing physical barriers between Northern Ireland and the country of Ireland. In a common market that's easier done, but with Brexit the border will return in order to control the flow of goods and services. They haven't figured out how to solve this....  Which is a point I keep making here: Cameron and May triggered a process without having a good plan of HOW to leave the EU. A hard Brexit is always an option. It's Britain that doesn't want that!

I also think democracies can still flourish if some important and very complicated decisions, like amending the constitution, etc, are NOT done by a slim majority, over a short time, and without a clear roadmap.

 

Edited by Epicurus

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Thirdly, where did you come up with the notion the EU is blocking Brexit? 

The UK government doesn't want to leave hence campaigning to remain, and has no intention of leaving. The EU doesn't want the UK to leave and has a history of ignoring referenda. Was obvious from the start it wouldn't be allowed to happen because neither side wanted it, apart from the voter of course but they don't matter.

Quote

 Another straw man:  Criticizing outcomes democracies produce as somehow not allowed! Yes, I'm saying the people made an ill-informed decision. It was not the first time nor will it be the last  A top Google search after Brexit: "What's the EU?" What, people can't be led to make bad decisions?  No matter what party/leader you prefer, you do say people made the wrong choice when they voted for those "you" did not support! Right?

I understand leaving is bad for Briton as you've so eloquently outlined(despite bizarrely thinking Cameron was a Brexiteer) however you either respect democracy or you don't. Criticise the choice made by all means as you believe it's the wrong one which is your right of course but to in someway justify it being overturned is plainly wrong and undemocratic.

Quote

Cameron and May triggered a process without having a good plan of HOW to leave the EU. A hard Brexit is always an option. It's Britain that doesn't want that!

Because they had no intention of leaving, which I said pretty much straight after the vote, besides Cameron didn't for a minute think he'd lose that vote. A 'hard Brexit' is what British people voted for, the Politicians and mouth pieces in the media don't want that, neither does the EU.

Very similar to the democrats in the US, they didn't like the outcome and Trump being elected so they scream Russia conspiracy to try and get it overturned. I understand life in the US would be much better under Hilary however you have to respect the vote or accept people are too stupid to make the correct choice and give up on democracy, like we have in Britain.

Quote

I also think democracies can still flourish if some important and very complicated decisions, like amending the constitution, etc, are NOT done by a slim majority, over a short time, and without a clear roadmap.

It was very clear, crystal clear, leave without a deal on WTO terms because that's what was voted for, this 'hard' 'soft' 'deal' 'roadmap' rubbish was introduced later as a way of delaying stalling and stopping Brexit altogether which has been achieved. 

Quote

You keep building straw men to make your points...  I didn't suggest "you" wouldn't be able to travel to Europe or Morocco... But as Britons liked open borders for them, they didn't like the reverse; didn't like eastern Europeans or.. Moroccans. Immigration was the top concern of 1/3 of those who voted for Brexit.

You have know way of knowing that 1/3 had immigration as a top concern. Britons are not in the schengen area and do not enjoy open borders, only with the Republic of Ireland does Britain have an open border where you can fly to Ireland without a passport. And it's their absolute right to not want other nationals to be allowed to live and work in the UK without being accused of being racist barefoot knuckle dragging dungaree wearing morons(which is pretty much what is being suggested in the media here) hence their vote should be ignored.

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There never was a democracy, it is only an idea. The fact that the UK is still in the EU is a joke.

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On 4/1/2019 at 6:32 PM, js1000 said:

 

Ok so it's not democracy because people were not informed, so what was the point of a referendum if people aren't informed enough to make the 'correct' choice and the outcome will just be ignored? 

 

 

That's why the referendum was such a bad idea. Because the public don't have a clue and are totally gullible. So they fell for the politicians' lies and populism (on both sides of the argument).

Moral of the story: you DON'T leave those SERIOUS matters for the people to decide. It's criminal (or rather, suicidal).

Who do I blame for this mess? Cameron.

It was the main part of his manifesto. For his own political ambitions (ie to get re-elected) he's turned this great country into a laughing stock and divided the people. People are not willing to listen, they have become like football fans religiously supporting Leave or Remain playing back the stupid populist lies that they hear left right and centre.

It's just shite, nothing is based on facts, no technical/financial assessments, no SMEs talking but rather stupid useless politicians, just BS, chants, flags, accusations left right and centre, heated arguments on QT etc.

 

 

 

Edited by ukworm
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The other thing I wanted to say is I can't understand how one of the oldest democracies in the world allowed this referendum to be meaningful with such a slim majority. There should have been a limit so there are no doubts about what people want (e.g. anything under e.g. 60-40, 55-45 whatever is agreed). 

So where are we today?

If there was a 2nd referendum tomorrow, Remain would win by 52-48.

If there was a 3rd one the day after tomorrow, Leave would win by 51-49.

And so on....

It's just ridiculous!!! The "people have spoken", only they are telling us a different thing every single day! (and why is that? I covered this in the previous post, because it's an emotional vote and really they haven't got a clue).

 

Contrast this with what happened in Greece in 1974 when Presidential democracy won by a huge margin 70-30 and there was a limit then (cant remember what it was).

Yes, that is decisive. Leaves no doubt what people want. Not much to discuss, bye bye royals. But this mess now...? Oh my god....

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On 5/2/2019 at 12:24 PM, ukworm said:

That's why the referendum was such a bad idea. Because the public don't have a clue and are totally gullible. So they fell for the politicians' lies and populism (on both sides of the argument).

Moral of the story: you DON'T leave those SERIOUS matters for the people to decide. It's criminal (or rather, suicidal).

 

Spot on, mate!

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Farage (Brexit party), Rudd (Con, supports May's deal), Soubry (Change UK, pro 2nd Referendum) on the same panel on BBC QT last night in Northhampton (NB deep Brexit-land in the Midlands).

Boos, cheers, jeers, shouts, chants, insults, scaremongering, false information all over (or lack of), populism......

Bloody hell......

OMG 35 years on I am re-living the Andreas - Mitsotakis era!!!! 

Panathinaikos v Olympiakos, Paok-Aris, Paok-Aek looks like childrens' playground in comparison.... 😀

Edited by ukworm

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All Brexit is, is the rich manipulating ignorant and racist people to vote to make themselves poorer. The Brexit charge was led by Boris Johnson (born Ironically from a Turkish immigrant father) and obviously an opportunist who will say and do anything (even contradict himself) to get into Number 10, Nigel Farrage (a vile Racist) and Jacob Rees Mogg a disaster Capitalist who is just looking to enrich himself out of Brexit and has already moved his fortune to Rep of Ireland in order to avoid the effects a Hard Brexit will have on it and to avoid the EU's Anti Tax Avoidance Directive which came into effect at the beginning of 2019. Not to mention the Leave campaign blatantly lied and manipulated the stupid on Facebook by printing misstruths perpetuated by Cambridge Analytica. 

 

The poor saps who voted for it are just like turkeys wishing for Christmas and the country is already starting to see the effect this is happening with the Nissan not building the X-Trail in Sunderland, the Honda plant closing in Sheffield etc. Yeah they've came out and said its not because of Brexit but any idiot can read between the lines and see it is. The Nissan X-Trail and Honda's will now be built in Japan, who incidentally recently signed a Trade Agreement with the EU so no import tariffs will be imposed!

 

My industry (TV Broadcast Industry) has been virtually destroyed by Brexit, and it hasn't actually happened yet! All TV channels which broadcast from the UK but which air in the EU (and trust me there's loads) will now have to broadcast from the EU in order to get the correct operating licence. So loads of channels in London are having to be either relocated to the EU or put in the Cloud and monitored remotely within the EU. This is effecting jobs massively and I already know of four companies which have gone or are in the process of moving channels to the EU (Discovery, Babcock, Arqiva and Encompass). I have a friend who works at Arqiva and the guy is in a depressed state and about to lose his job, in his own words "I bloody hate Brexit, every time I think about it I get in a bad mood, it's getting to me".  I pointed this out to a Brexiteer on Twitter and he told me I was lying, the Muppet! 

 

That's the level of understanding you're dealing with, with Brexiteers they are so blinded by what they want, that if you try and point out what the consequences of it are (even if it has already happened) they won't believe you. They have the same mentality as Holocaust Deniers!

 

I'm almost of the point now where I think yeah let the F***ers make themselves poor and have what they voted for. Which will ultimately be the devaluation of the pound (even more), and a massive increase in the cost of living (as the UK imports most goods) and the loss of jobs (as Corporations scramble to relocate to within the EU).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Chris Tsamados
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I cannot believe that there are Greeks living in the UK who actually still think the EU is what it claims to be.

The EU is a gang that serves the interests of central Europe only (more so Germany). It is nothing more than a group run by bullies who every so often throw scraps to the followers being led to slaughter. This has nothing to do with racism and people need to stop using this card. Indeed there are racist people in every country and at the end of the day if you are unemployed while foreigners are coming here and finding jobs with no connections and having English as a second or third language then you yourself are the problem. Not everyone who voted out thinks like this and I would say this is a minority. In fact there are many people like myself who are for open borders worldwide. If we were really were in a European Union or United Nations we would strive to ensure that struggling countries were helped up to the level of those prospering (though this is another debate altogether).

The first crime the EU made was having member states adopt the same currency. Why on Earth does Greece, Ireland, Spain Portugal and Italy have the same currency as German, Belgium, France and Luxemburg? You do not need to be an economist to recognise that not only are the economies in each country different but also the cultures are in some cases incomparable. The plan had already been implemented, however this is when the strategy to take over Europe began to take shape. Now we see Greek, Italian and Spanish public and private entities being bought up by German, French and Austrian private and public institutions. Before any of you say it - yes, the Greeks and the Italians should blame themselves first for the state of the country. For years people were enjoying the free money, working in the public sector etc. However, the central European governments knew very well what was going on. The fact that nobody at Goldman Sachs was prosecuted for manipulating Greece's debt figures is a farce.

With regards to a referendum, if you are unsure of what may come then you probably shouldn't put the vote to the people. Cameron did and people voted out. It doesn't matter if it was only 52.89%, the majority still won. I have heard the argument "oh, but it was only a small margin" hundreds of times and it is quite pathetic to be honest. Ajax and Tottenham drew the other night on aggregate. What would we say if Ajax argued "But Tottenham only won because of the away goal rule, so it isn't really a win. We should have another game to really decide this time." Yes, that's right, let's just keep having referendums until the remainers get what they want.

"People were lied to by politicians". Is this something new? Were some of you born yesterday? Politicians have been doing this for centuries.

Wake up! All of the difficulties that we are and/or may end up experiencing is just the EU trying to make an example of the UK for daring to leave. It is like the EU is saying "This is what happens to anyone who wants to leave", while looking at likes of Spain, Greece, Ireland (and maybe even France from what I have understood). I laugh at people like Tusk and Junker who 'offer' extensions to the UK and I laugh harder at the remainers who say "The EU is really handing us a lifeline right now and being kind to us while we have been absolute idiots." You absolute f*&kwits, the EU needs the UK to stay otherwise it could be the beginning of the end for them.

Quite surprised that some of you undermine the UK so much considering the history it has of being one of the strongest nations worldwide, even before the EU.

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I haven't got a problem that one side won by a small margin, I do have a problem that one side consistently cheated by over spending, targeting the easily manipulated with lies and falsehoods and the scum bags even continued campaigning after Jo Cox was murdered by a Racist Leaver, even though where they were specifically told to cease. They broke all kinds of Electoral Laws

 

The outcome of the referendum once they released what the Leave campaign had done should have been voided and re-ran. Simple. 

 

 

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A big part of the problem with Brexit, or rather the referendum, was it was in no way clear on what the consequences would be of leaving the EU.  And a big part of the problem with defining that, was, it hadn't been defined!  They are still trying to negotiate!  The entire process has been a farce.

The key issue was immigration (read cheap labor competing for jobs).  Even if this can be proven to be a falsehood (and I've never checked in detail) this was the key thing that turned most voters to vote pro-Brexit.  It's easy to preach about equality, inclusiveness, humanity and be an idealist.  Fine, open your borders, today, right now, and let 2 billion Chinese, Mexicans and Indians in.  Watch them take your jobs.  If not yours, those of many around you.  Not so appealing now ?  People will vote to protect "their way of life" and "getting rid of foreigners" is an easy play.  I was not surprised by the result.  I didn't think it'd get over the line, but at the same time I wasn't surprised.

What Britain should have done is used the referendum to broker some sort of a deal to limit immigration.  There was no need to leave the EU.

Now that it's done, Britain doesn't know which way to turn to broker a satisfactory deal.  Either way, they're going to get screwed in the short term as the EU will actively try and make life difficult.  In the long run, I guess we'll see if it was a good decision or not.  Until the details are worked out, it's almost impossible to know.

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9 hours ago, Chris Tsamados said:

The outcome of the referendum once they released what the Leave campaign had done should have been voided and re-ran. Simple.

As I said, let's keep doing referendums until remain wins. With regards to campaign spending, nobody seems to have a problem when both election candidates are financed by the same sponsors.

@Bananas again, the immigration issue was not the main point of Brexit. I explained in my post what it means if a native is unable to find a job when foreigners are.

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