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Ancient Greek History

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a conversation worth its own topic...

that was my problem with Star Trek's transporter... dissolving and reconstituting a person's atoms should be producing clones, not the real person.

As for many Trumps...  that would be great! Oh, how I'd wish that....

..Trump would be the worst enemy of ..Trump. No 2 Trumps could exist in same room or even universe. It'd be total annihilation

:Bang: [like matter v. anti-matter]

Edited by Hudson
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over the years i've seen many discussions regarding the ancestry of the ancient greeks on these forums

 

here is an interesting article

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals?

 

i remember having long discussions with some members (especially X members) regarding this subject

looks like i was right and minoans and myceneans shared very similar DNA

 

also sheds some light regarding the blonde hair blue eyes debate

 

and while we are at it

some nice articles

http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/greek-news/culture/26413-archaeologists-unknown-monumental-palace-rewrites-ancient-greek-history.html

 

enjoy:

 

http://griffinwarrior.org/index.html

GRAVE OF THE

GRIFFIN WARRIOR FOUND AT THE

PALACE OF NESTOR, Pylos, GREECE

 

Centuries before the destruction of the Mycenaean palaces, a warrior died and was buried alone near the site of the later “Palace of Nestor at Pylos.”  His burial was accompanied by one of the most magnificent displays of wealth discovered in Greece in recent decades.  The character of the objects that followed him to the afterlife prove that this part of Greece, like Mycenae, was being indelibly shaped by close contact with Crete.  This was the time of the very birth of European civilization.

 

The warrior’s tomb was discovered and excavated in summer 2015 by a team sponsored by the University of Cincinnati: students, professors, and professional archaeologists from a dozen different universities, representing as many different nationalities.  Project co-directors Sharon R. Stocker and Jack L. Davis of the University of Cincinnati note:  “The team did not discover the grave of the legendary King Nestor, who headed a contingent in the Greek forces at Troy.  Nor did it find the grave of his father, Neleus.  They found something perhaps of even greater importance: the tomb of one of the powerful men who laid foundations for the Mycenaean civilization, the earliest in Europe.”

 

Overlooking the bay of Navarino, high above the sea on the ridge of Englianos, sits the “Palace of Nestor at Pylos,” the most completely preserved of all Bronze Age palaces on the Greek mainland.

 

Edited by tantra129

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Thanks Tantra, very interesting.

The geographical area of Greece produced some great civilization. Yes, the genetic code shows that there's a lineage from the ancients to the modern Greeks, but also a mixing of the populations of peoples who lived in the area.

Does DNA carry qualities that make one people more special or even superior to others? Is there genetic memory that makes people predisposed to something?  I think that people can make themselves what they want. It certainly feels good to have ancestors with a history of greatness, but it's up to you to learn from them and carry on the tradition.

Also, should you be given privileges because your ..father won the Nobel Prize? You can certainly feel proud, but I'd ask you, have you done anything of importance?  I see DNA lineage the same way. It's nice to have but show me something new, say your generation has done....  Also, nobody prevents anyone from adopting great ideas from the ancients, or from anywhere really, even if they don't have direct lineage, and I think this is beautiful.

 

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it;s not being linked to greatness. my point is that there was a link. others on this site used to say greeks just showed up enlightened..and did not develop from previous civilizations. i argued that.

the only thing our dna proves is that we like Frappe.

 

i am amazed at the detail of the art in that seal. it's mind boggling.

i have visited the excavation site and the surrounding areas, it's amazing how they lived back then.

 

in the end, all humans are linked by similar DNA,  our nation is just a little more similar, that's all

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Yes, I read the article(s) about this archaeological find; it's amazing in its detail.

One of the things I admire about the Hellenic civilization was its emphasis on the human condition. It wasn't all about glorifying the kings or the gods. Even their religion was humanly based! The human form was idealized.

Also, their attempt to understand the physical world by using reason and the scientific method--extremely rare for the times then.

As for things back then and even today, we have to define what greatness is!  So, what were the "great civilizations" or the people that achieved extraordinary things?

One was military power, brute force, battle tactics. Genghis Khan conquered huge swaths of lands. The Vikings were great warriors too.  Same with Assyrians, Babylonians, et al.

The other one was ideas, science, philosophy, etc, that survived and influenced thousands of future generations. The Athenian model of organizing tribes on a more open, tolerant political system, gave rise to all these things, which in turn produced greatness.  For me, ideas and culture matter as to what possible outcomes are likely. It could have been an accident of history that the Athenians did what they did, but they ..did it! Not many other societies copied them.

 

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The great world museum in NYC, the Metropolitan, has one of the best collections of art and artifacts from across the globe and throughout human history. I highly recommend visiting this museum, but budget many hours, which wouldn't be enough to see everything.

I suggest you visit the Medieval section first. This was the time when European society was focusing its art on glorifying the rulers and God. The Dark Ages lasted centuries. The Renaissance re-discovered the Greek and Roman past, not by design or will, but as a result of a new emerging class, the merchants, who traded, got rich, and challenged the status quo.

Anyway, the medieval section is dimly lit. Then walk to the Greco-Roman wing of the museum.... woa, the light, the brightness of human spirit, the potential of humanity, the pursuit of happiness as a worthy value, instead of absolute devotion to rulers and gods.

It's been humanism, and the Enlightenment that gave us some of the best things we enjoy today, from science and its benefits, to individual choice and freedom.

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very true and good post.  

 

Their state of mind was something else  

 

Feels funny that half the world is treading backwards and the other half towards the sweetest condition. 

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"Having reconstructed a lot of Stone Age women and men, I think some facial features seem to have disappeared or 'smoothed out' with time. In general, we look less masculine, both men and women, today.”

I wonder why? Natural selection? or those masculine features weren't needed any longer. Maybe strength wasn't as necessary?

In a population where most everyone hooks up and has children, it doesn't explain "more masculine women" (uglier?) being selected out of the pool.

Interesting.

Edited by Hudson

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funny thing is the 9000 year old queen and the 3500 year old griffin warrior look very similar.

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Not sure where else to put this and wasn't sure if it was worthy of its own thread, but here's an article published in 2016 in the European Journal of Human Genetics that discusses the ethnic background of Peloponnesean Greeks and how close related they are to the Greeks during the Middle Ages. A popular hypothesis is that the native Greek populations were either wiped out or wholly assimilated with the Slavic invaders of the 6th and 7th century CE, but this article seems to dispute that. It is definitely an interesting finding that sheds new light on the question of how closely related modern Greeks are to their ancient counterparts.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718: "The Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians."

I believe it quite likely that the further north you go, into Makedonia and Epirus, the people there will have a much stronger Slavic and Albanian admixture.

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Posted (edited)

According to the article it states that Slavic ancestry can vary up to 14% of the DNA the Peloponnesean population samples. Therefore, this study actually proves Slavic ancestry rather than disproves it as the Slavic DNA has remained in the gene pool for 1000yrs in an area which probably had the least amount of different Balkan ethnicities living in the area.  If the population samples were further north in Greece i bet that figure would increase. Another thing to note is that they are comparing the Slavic DNA of the pure Slavs which are from your Polish, Belorussian type Slavs. If they compared the Slavic DNA of those from the Balkans the results would be very different. 

I dont know why but many Greeks get very sensitive when Slavic DNA is mentioned. The Balkans has been always been a melting pot of different ethnicities for over a millennia and so it is not unreasonable that we all share very close DNA. Most of my Greek friends even get surprised when I tell them that Thessaloniki's population was mixed for a millenia between Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks & Jews pretty much up to the early 1900's. 

From what i have read usually mainland Greeks have a closer DNA match with other Balkan peoples and the Islanders of Greece have a closer DNA match with the Italians.

 

Edited by SydneyPAOK

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3 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

According to the article it states that Slavic ancestry can vary up to 14% of the DNA the Peloponnesean population samples. ...

I dont know why but many Greeks get very sensitive when Slavic DNA is mentioned. The Balkans has been always been a melting pot of different ethnicities for over a millennia and so it is not unreasonable that we all share very close DNA. Most of my Greek friends even get surprised when I tell them that Thessaloniki's population was mixed for a millenia between Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks & Jews pretty much up to the early 1900's. 

From what i have read usually mainland Greeks have a closer DNA match with other Balkan peoples and the Islanders of Greece have a closer DNA match with the Italians.

 

Of course, that's to be expected. But, we have to ask a brave question? Why does it matter? Genes (DNA) don't carry cultural and historical memories. Your genetic ancestors' greatness (we never talk about their negatives) isn't passed as memories through DNA. It's the ideas, the civilization that you may feel proud of, but then all this is available to anyone. I don't have to be English to appreciate British literature, philosophy and science. Same with the Hellenic civilization's goodies.

You, anyone can feel Hellene, or modern Greek, or love Greece, etc. Several ethnic groups rose against Ottoman rule. Many didn't speak (nor understood) Greek. I doubt that all knew about the Hellenic past. But, circumstances and geography made a nation out of these diverse people in the 19th and 20th centuries.

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Completely agree that anyone can be and feel Greek and can do so through different means. It can be through the love of the culture, the history, the food, the language etc.  Your identity definitely does not need to be defined by your genes.

I personally love the DNA testing element. Seeing the shared DNA with other ethnicities just makes me ponder about the history of all the different population movements that occurred across the area and the historical demography. I like the fact that we from the Balkans are all a mixed salata. The notion of being a "pure" Greek (which doesn't exist) actually bores me. 

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In truth I haven't read the article in a couple of months so my memory on it is a bit hazy, but since I just joined the forums so I thought I would share. I suppose I misspoke and should have said the article disputes the fact that the native population was largely displaced by Slavic invaders and the latter make up only a small portion of the genetic input to today's modern Peloponnisiotes. The people of Mani and Tsakonia had the most difference from any other subgroup as well, which if you look at the historical context makes sense.

Either way, you're both correct in that since Greece is at the cross roads of 3 continents, it's bound to have both ethnic and cultural variances throughout the millennia.

Just thought I would share

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we should open a dna topic

 

prior to and during the Peloponnesian wars, greeks populated the med

hence.. the similarities in DNA

i think many are reading the scope of the study wrong

 

i also know that when the slavs came down, they stayed in pockets of slavic speaking communities

 

i see people here claiming that they just came down and blended in, which is not the case and the DNA mapping proves that

 

people are saying genes don't carry memory are proven wrong by the existence of haplogroups

 

when we talk of a mixed salata, you should also consider, we are all human and that is the mixed salata

 

the ancient athenian that went to massalia and his daughter that went to messina share this salata

 

it is a two way street

 

DNA proves ancestry, health risks and traits .... ex .... like if you are more at risk to drinking 8 frappedes a day vs 1

 

these are the common genes we share ... to different extents

 

and as science progresses, you might find out if you were a descendant of pericles, king minos, alexander, socrates, iphigeneia or sappho.

or maybe you are a mix of all of the above

 

but the point of the study is ...do you share more traits with this guy:

 

 

autos-einai-o-grupas-polemistis-tis-pulo

 

 

 

or some slavic guy that roamed downhill 2000 years later?

 

looks like the DNA study proves the greeks have more dna in common with the myceneans and minoans

 

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Posted (edited)

I ask, again, what does your DNA matter, other than it makes you feel good being connected to some people that you have no memories of?  If it's cultural, then again, such values are given to individuals not inherited via genetics.

And, let's say, you have 100% the DNA of the greatest person(s) ever lived....  Are you asking for special treatment? Recognition of greatness simply because you're standing on the shoulders of others? Even if your father/mother was the greatest person, wouldn't you want to do something great yourself to get honors? 

 

At least if your father/mother raised you, you could claim they gave you their great ideas directly, but still you have to demonstrate something good yourself.  If it's a civilization or philosophy of ideas, then they're available to everyone!   The sons of Epicurus, Galileo, Newton,  Locke, Mill, etc, aren't necessarily any better than you simply because of their fathers!  Right?

Edited by Epicurus

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I beg to differ. 

 DNA is how the memory of your existence is passed on. The memory is passed into your genes  

 

Not culture, but humanity  

 

We have only only scratched the surface. 

Technology will create eternal life. 

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Well, on the one hand it's important to not get caught up in the accomplishments of those who lived 2000 years in the past, but this is all just a fun exercise anyway and gives us a better glimpse into the who the pre-historic and ancient Greeks were as a people and a culture. It's more of an academic fascination for me than anything I suppose and not something born out of genetic supremacy.

That being said, I wonder how much guess work goes into these and how similar things would turn out if you gave the same skull to 5 different dxperts for a reconstruction. I know for some things like the skin tone, they approximate; who remembers that bust of King Tut's mom a few months back and some people were crying over "white washing?" I believe that, that in that, they had based the skin pigment off of what the average Egyptian woman looks like in the 21st century.

Other things, like the nose and ears, are made out of cartilage.. so how would they be able to faithfully recreate that? I haven't read into this stuff so I'm a bit in the dark on it.

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On 4/15/2018 at 8:49 PM, tantra129 said:

I beg to differ. 

DNA is how the memory of your existence is passed on. The memory is passed into your genes  

Not culture, but humanity  

We have only only scratched the surface. 

Technology will create eternal life. 

I don't think you're disputing what I'm saying, unless you think I said that DNA is useless. Of course DNA has our genetic code, and certain characteristics are passed down from generation to generation. Even this is subject to mutations, evolution, and changing environment. The skin tone, size of body, shape of features, etc, change over time.

Anyway, I was talking about culture, which is not passed through DNA.

Technology may create eternal life if we don't destroy ourselves before that or that artificial intelligence doesn't destroy the human species. But, even this eternal life may be another evolutionary step.  Machines and humans merging, for example. With changing environment, changing physical needs, and even climate change will be factors.

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Posted (edited)

agreed

 

living is embracing change .... as weird as it may seem looking at it from the past.

 

staying relevant is about adapting to the changes

 

no other way about it

 

our DNA mutates and evolves adapting to our experiences and our evolving needs

 

passed on to our successors, so they can be more relevant than us

Edited by tantra129
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