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Not sure where else to put this and wasn't sure if it was worthy of its own thread, but here's an article published in 2016 in the European Journal of Human Genetics that discusses the ethnic background of Peloponnesean Greeks and how close related they are to the Greeks during the Middle Ages. A popular hypothesis is that the native Greek populations were either wiped out or wholly assimilated with the Slavic invaders of the 6th and 7th century CE, but this article seems to dispute that. It is definitely an interesting finding that sheds new light on the question of how closely related modern Greeks are to their ancient counterparts.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718: "The Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians."

I believe it quite likely that the further north you go, into Makedonia and Epirus, the people there will have a much stronger Slavic and Albanian admixture.

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According to the article it states that Slavic ancestry can vary up to 14% of the DNA the Peloponnesean population samples. Therefore, this study actually proves Slavic ancestry rather than disproves it as the Slavic DNA has remained in the gene pool for 1000yrs in an area which probably had the least amount of different Balkan ethnicities living in the area.  If the population samples were further north in Greece i bet that figure would increase. Another thing to note is that they are comparing the Slavic DNA of the pure Slavs which are from your Polish, Belorussian type Slavs. If they compared the Slavic DNA of those from the Balkans the results would be very different. 

I dont know why but many Greeks get very sensitive when Slavic DNA is mentioned. The Balkans has been always been a melting pot of different ethnicities for over a millennia and so it is not unreasonable that we all share very close DNA. Most of my Greek friends even get surprised when I tell them that Thessaloniki's population was mixed for a millenia between Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks & Jews pretty much up to the early 1900's. 

From what i have read usually mainland Greeks have a closer DNA match with other Balkan peoples and the Islanders of Greece have a closer DNA match with the Italians.

 

Edited by SydneyPAOK
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3 hours ago, SydneyPAOK said:

According to the article it states that Slavic ancestry can vary up to 14% of the DNA the Peloponnesean population samples. ...

I dont know why but many Greeks get very sensitive when Slavic DNA is mentioned. The Balkans has been always been a melting pot of different ethnicities for over a millennia and so it is not unreasonable that we all share very close DNA. Most of my Greek friends even get surprised when I tell them that Thessaloniki's population was mixed for a millenia between Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks & Jews pretty much up to the early 1900's. 

From what i have read usually mainland Greeks have a closer DNA match with other Balkan peoples and the Islanders of Greece have a closer DNA match with the Italians.

 

Of course, that's to be expected. But, we have to ask a brave question? Why does it matter? Genes (DNA) don't carry cultural and historical memories. Your genetic ancestors' greatness (we never talk about their negatives) isn't passed as memories through DNA. It's the ideas, the civilization that you may feel proud of, but then all this is available to anyone. I don't have to be English to appreciate British literature, philosophy and science. Same with the Hellenic civilization's goodies.

You, anyone can feel Hellene, or modern Greek, or love Greece, etc. Several ethnic groups rose against Ottoman rule. Many didn't speak (nor understood) Greek. I doubt that all knew about the Hellenic past. But, circumstances and geography made a nation out of these diverse people in the 19th and 20th centuries.

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Completely agree that anyone can be and feel Greek and can do so through different means. It can be through the love of the culture, the history, the food, the language etc.  Your identity definitely does not need to be defined by your genes.

I personally love the DNA testing element. Seeing the shared DNA with other ethnicities just makes me ponder about the history of all the different population movements that occurred across the area and the historical demography. I like the fact that we from the Balkans are all a mixed salata. The notion of being a "pure" Greek (which doesn't exist) actually bores me. 

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In truth I haven't read the article in a couple of months so my memory on it is a bit hazy, but since I just joined the forums so I thought I would share. I suppose I misspoke and should have said the article disputes the fact that the native population was largely displaced by Slavic invaders and the latter make up only a small portion of the genetic input to today's modern Peloponnisiotes. The people of Mani and Tsakonia had the most difference from any other subgroup as well, which if you look at the historical context makes sense.

Either way, you're both correct in that since Greece is at the cross roads of 3 continents, it's bound to have both ethnic and cultural variances throughout the millennia.

Just thought I would share

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  • 1 month later...

I ask, again, what does your DNA matter, other than it makes you feel good being connected to some people that you have no memories of?  If it's cultural, then again, such values are given to individuals not inherited via genetics.

And, let's say, you have 100% the DNA of the greatest person(s) ever lived....  Are you asking for special treatment? Recognition of greatness simply because you're standing on the shoulders of others? Even if your father/mother was the greatest person, wouldn't you want to do something great yourself to get honors? 

 

At least if your father/mother raised you, you could claim they gave you their great ideas directly, but still you have to demonstrate something good yourself.  If it's a civilization or philosophy of ideas, then they're available to everyone!   The sons of Epicurus, Galileo, Newton,  Locke, Mill, etc, aren't necessarily any better than you simply because of their fathers!  Right?

Edited by Epicurus
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Well, on the one hand it's important to not get caught up in the accomplishments of those who lived 2000 years in the past, but this is all just a fun exercise anyway and gives us a better glimpse into the who the pre-historic and ancient Greeks were as a people and a culture. It's more of an academic fascination for me than anything I suppose and not something born out of genetic supremacy.

That being said, I wonder how much guess work goes into these and how similar things would turn out if you gave the same skull to 5 different dxperts for a reconstruction. I know for some things like the skin tone, they approximate; who remembers that bust of King Tut's mom a few months back and some people were crying over "white washing?" I believe that, that in that, they had based the skin pigment off of what the average Egyptian woman looks like in the 21st century.

Other things, like the nose and ears, are made out of cartilage.. so how would they be able to faithfully recreate that? I haven't read into this stuff so I'm a bit in the dark on it.

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On 4/15/2018 at 8:49 PM, tantra129 said:

I beg to differ. 

DNA is how the memory of your existence is passed on. The memory is passed into your genes  

Not culture, but humanity  

We have only only scratched the surface. 

Technology will create eternal life. 

I don't think you're disputing what I'm saying, unless you think I said that DNA is useless. Of course DNA has our genetic code, and certain characteristics are passed down from generation to generation. Even this is subject to mutations, evolution, and changing environment. The skin tone, size of body, shape of features, etc, change over time.

Anyway, I was talking about culture, which is not passed through DNA.

Technology may create eternal life if we don't destroy ourselves before that or that artificial intelligence doesn't destroy the human species. But, even this eternal life may be another evolutionary step.  Machines and humans merging, for example. With changing environment, changing physical needs, and even climate change will be factors.

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