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Inexplicable decision

Online government portal Diavgeia turned out to be one of the most important reforms carried out in Greece over the last few years. A decision by today?s leftist-led coalition government to dismantle the transparency initiative program was based on absolutely unfounded excuses and represents a major setback. The government portal allowed citizens to have access to decisions regarding state recruitments and procurements, the expenditure of public organizations and other interesting information.

In the absence of Diavgeia, what is more than certain is that the corrupt and the wasteful will once more be able to hide behind a veil of nontransparency. The removal of the transparency portal was no doubt an incomprehensible decision on the part of the SYRIZA-Independent Greeks administration.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_1_06/05/2015_549741

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disgraceful government, they now want to introduce a surcharge when withdrawing large amounts. fleece their own people in order to give money to the troika. 

voting is pointless, these guys are sell outs like all the others before them.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3068975/Greece-introduces-mandatory-surcharges-cashpoints-desperate-attempt-raise-money-stop-panicked-citizens-withdrawing-life-savings-country-s-beleaguered-banks.html

 

you can't blame the greek people for clearing out their accounts, specially after what happened to savers in Cyprus recently. 

Edited by js1000
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In the leftist ideology there is no such thing as "Our people" in the way that you are picturing the term. You're thinking about it within the scope of statehood, meaning them (another nationality) and us (Greeks) whereas leftists ideology sees it as them (middle class-rich) and us ( workers/lower classes worldwide, including immigrants).

 

To some degree they have a point as the rich were living tax free and corrupt for many years. Only problem is, the lower classes in Greece were as well , on a smaller individual scale but in larger numbers. It seems Syriza is falling into the same, typical Greek approach of extremes. Its either the rich or the poor. Nothing in between, and most certainly no attempt to fix both. Greek politicians have yet to wrap their heads around the concept of anti-austerity, as Syriza will simply replace poor-austerity with rich-austerity. Big business will avoid Greece all together, the way things are heading, and Rich-austerity will quickly turn into a shortcoming for poorer citizens as well, as there is NO concept of moderation in Greek politics or Greece in general. There is no attempt to reach a compromise with Greece's financial elite, to help both the poor and rich in Greece, as that would go against the ideology that the current Govt. represents. When the pendulum swings to the right again the rich will have their way again and the poor will be backed into a corner. When the right F***s up and the pendulum swings left again, you'll expect ERT projects and public sector "jobs" popping up all over the place again, and when the pendulum swings right, Greece will continue the privatization programs where we will be able to continue racking up the "BIG BUCKS" selling away our boarders and islands on craigslist. When the pendulum swings to the right, you'll eventually get taxed for having kids, and when it swings left you'll get taxed to pay for Illegal Immigrant children. Just one big stupid ###### ENDLESS circle. 

 

With that being said there is one thing you have to give Syriza credit for and that is, that they have not pulled a 180 yet. They're doing exactly what they promised they would do since their election campaign. They are pushing for the EU to loan to us, under the appropriate terms. They are going after the big boy cons rather than jailing salon owners and corner store "tycoons" LOL. They have cut certain taxes imposed on those struggling in Greece. Agree with it or not, they are doing what they said, and even when they can't do what they said, the intent is still there. This only exposes the fact that the Greek public doesn't even really know what they really want. All they know is that they want "it" NOW. They don't know how "it" is going to happen as long as it happens NOW. Everyone is focusing on a declining economy since his election, but no one is acknowledging that he's doing what they voted for. They probably thought Tsipra and Varoufaki were going to waltz into Brussels and the European/World elites would give up their plan without a battle. That is why the Drachma at this moment in time, under these conditions would never work. Because the first week that Greeks realize the Drachma isn't the instant success they thought it would be, there is going to be more unrest and bitching, because they aren't getting "it" NOW. Whatever "it" is. 

 

 

 

    

"

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Ironically, for a large period of time in Greece, this song was playing in every Germanos store, every OTE home phone, every OTE commercial, and a lot of cellphone ring tones...........and yet most never bothered to understand the meaning or warning behind the song. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do.....so I'll leave it up to you."

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Greeks just want the easy way out and Syriza promised the world only to be put in a chokehold by Europe.  Syriza is throwing out empty threats yet they know time is running out for them if they don't agree to more loans.  Syriza again wants to provide all this crap to everyone with someone else's money.  Good riddance.

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Look man its not so simple as to provide for Greeks with other people's money. The point is to lead the country in a path where it has the ability to obtain some form of sustainability on day. Right now that is IMPOSSIBLE. The interest rate is too high, the debt is too high, the austerity has shrunk the economy, the gdp is going down and the deficit is going up, the country has no control of inflation or its currency. There are a lot of issues, similar to the 2008 housing market crash in the US. People were given subprime mortgages with high interest rates , the banks turned their heads (just like the EU did in the Goldman Sachs/Papademo/Simiti scam to get into the euro), and no one bothered to ask if these people were able to pay these loans or if their income can sustain the payments in the even of a recession. Same thing with Greece. Basically what Syriza are saying is "help us help you". They can either get their money back at a lower interest rate, slightly trimmed, and without austerity/political influence, or they can lose everything and get nothing if Greece defaults, which is the only solution if an agreement isn't made. The country has NO money to run operating expenses and in the long run the country will never make enough money to keep up with the interest rate. We have no choice right now. Greece is a junky right now, and either the EU lets Greece die from withdrawal or helps the country get rehab. But under no circumstance can we continue to keep injecting dead money into the country without a real solution.

 

 

 

Now on to other important things. That avatar man. I can no longer continue to converse with you while you sport a despicable and disgusting Kronos Gyro as an avatar and have the username Gyro hahaha

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Spot on summary Che, except for the junky metaphor.  Germany was also a junky in that German exporters benefited.  German banks made loans which were used to buy German goods, so for a while there, it was all dandy.  The bankers made their short term bonuses and profits, the exporters made sales, and the Greeks got what they wanted.

 

I don't really have an objection to Germany "punishing" Greece per se, but it has to be a constructive punishment with a positive end goal.  So far we've had 5 or so years of austerity with no end in sight.  Greece has followed their instructions, and nothing has improved.  Nothing will improve.

 

Their is only one reasonable solution and that is, invest in Greece so it can grow, and as it grows Greece will be able to make increasing payments.  However, politically that just won't wash.

 

So, expect lots of can kicking.

 

I must say, it surprises me when posters make comments that have a real hatred towards Syriza.  I couldn't give two shits about Syriza.  If a monkey was in the election vs ND and PASOK, I would have voted for the monkey.  Syriza has only been destroying Greece for 3 months!  ND and PASOK destroyed it for 3 decades!!!  Syriza still has a ways to go before they are on their level.

 

Having said that, below is my perception of Greek political parties, in various categories, marked out of 10.

Comp = Competence to govern.  Are they experienced in governing / realpolitik.

Hono = Honesty/honour.  Are their intentions honourable.  Are they actually trying to help the country.  This is inversely related to naivety.

Will = Willingness to F*** the greek people.  Couldn't give two shits about the country, so long as they are sitting on the throne.

 

              Comp  Hono  Will

              ----  ----  ----

PASOK/ND         8     1    10

SYRIZA           2     8     3

KKE              2     1     3

GOLDEN SHOWER    2     3     7

Edited by Bananas

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Put down the KKE all you want but the fact is their solution is probably the one that would benefit Greece the most in the long run.

 

*Out of the euro

*Out of the EU

*Renounce the debt

 

And march ahead with a protected industry and, at least, a partially planned economy.

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KKE would be banned in any civilised  country..or at least laughed out of existence..only in Greece they are still relevant because we are carrying 70 years of 'baggage'...

 

KKE would create zero jobs and shut the country down..

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SYRIZA and the KKE and more advanced versions of PASOK.  Their aim has never been to encourage investment into Greece or to encourage capitalistic competition among Greeks. Their aim has been the creation of state run jobs. How these are paid for - they are not in the least bit concerned. They are there to protect the culture of Greece. Early closing times, good pensions, unfirable positions, strong unions etc etc.

 

So far, SYRIZA has not paid a penny less to the banks liked they promised to. They have undone the university reforms - meaning universities are once again socialist rec rooms - with degrees that can continue ad infinitum. They have reversed all the transparency laws that made sure state jobs could not be given to friends for example. They have emptied the illegal immigrants out on to the street. They have reduced freedom of expression by passing into law the right to prosecute TV stations for showing violence or riots. They have reemployed all the rotting corpses who were running ERT. They have also done nothing to rebuild the Piraeus ship yards - that the unions themselves destroyed.

 

Having said this, this Government is exactly what Greece deserves. When you have 200 years of brain drain, of course the Greeks left in Greece are going to vote in the Government that creates easy jobs and destroys competition.

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not to mention the fact that as bad as PASOK/ND were....Syriza/KKE supporters ran the country defacto all those years...by stymieing any progressive reforms and fueling riots that destroyed cities and brainwashed a public looking for quick fix.

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SYRIZA has been in 'power' only a few months, they didn't destroy greece, greece was well F***ed by all the bent governments that went before, you had the defence minister taking bungs from german defence companies and all of a sudden greece borrows money from german banks to buy german made military equipment, Mr papademos was the finance minister when greece cooked the books with goldman sachs in order to join the euro, meanwhile goldman walked away with $$$$$$

Edited by js1000

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Look guys, Iceland is a different story. Iceland doesn't have the same immigration problem, Iceland wasn't exposed to the EU the way we were, Iceland doesn't have the threat of being invaded by Canada, Greenland, or the Antarctic isles lol. Iceland has a different population and a different lifestyle. For the most part they seem like a much more content and less corrupt nation. A population that gets by on Beer and knitting, is different from your average Greek hahaha

 

Also I don't think any serious political conversation should ever have the name KKE in it. That party is a farce. If any of you remember, last elections, Syriza had the opportunity to come to power then as well, but KKE made the statement we've all known for years, basically saying they don't even intend to assume power in Greece. So basically they are only there to block reform, disagree without giving solutions, give power to street thugs and union pimps, and pretty much sit on the sideline and watch..........The fact that this piece of s%$#! group consistently pulls 5-7% says a lot once again about the Greek voter. 

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The rollbacks that Syriza just implemented, are merely a rollback to the way things were under ND and PASOK for decades.

 

I don't agree with them since Greece needs to get its head out of the sand and compete in the real world, but it is what it is.  The people can always vote ND at the next election if they're not happy with Syriza.

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I find it hard to be angry with Syriza.  Some of their ideas annoy me, even astound me, because in this day and age it can't work like that anymore.  For proof they only need look back to the failures of the last 3 decades.  But all in all, I just find them naive.

 

As for ND/PASOK, I have a white-hot burning anger towards them, because they knew better.  They are not naive and know how things work.  But they didn't do anything about it.  Posters here will say it was because there was too much resistance from the left.  Bollocks.  They were comfortable and happy to sit on the throne.  As long as they got to eat lobster every night, what did they care.  Just see Kostas Karamanlis for an example of a rat.

 

Legally they may have not broken any laws, but morally and in my eyes, they are criminals of the highest order.  They were in charge of the nation, and instead chose to line their own pockets.  Bravo, enjoy your lobsters. 

Edited by Bananas
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I find it hard to be angry with Syriza.  Some of their ideas annoy me, even astound me, because in this day and age it can't work like that anymore.  For proof they only need look back to the failures of the last 3 decades.  But all in all, I just find them naive.

 

As for ND/PASOK, I have a white-hot burning anger towards them, because they knew better.  They are not naive and know how things work.  But they didn't do anything about it.  Posters here will say it was because there was too much resistance from the left.  Bollocks.  They were comfortable and happy to sit on the throne.  As long as they got to eat lobster every night, what did they care.  Just see Kostas Karamanlis for an example of a rat.

 

Legally they may have not broken any laws, but morally and in my eyes, they are criminals of the highest order.  They were in charge of the nation, and instead chose to line their own pockets.  Bravo, enjoy your lobsters. 

 

You make some interesting points, but in European terms, I can tell you that PASOK is a leftist party and has a history of harbouring leftist nut jobs and creating phony public sectors jobs on an unprecedented scale in order to win votes. ND is centrist at best, their handling of Turkey, immigrants and crime actually made PASOK look good. There is no genuine right wing party with any serious support in Greece. That is why university students help illegal immigrants hijack universities unopposed. Their is a culture of pseudo leftist failure in Greece. I say pseudo, because if any members of PASOK or the KKE lived one day in the former Soviet Union, they would die of heart failure on the spot.

Edited by Reaper

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On a continent where countries are voting more conservative, are looking to protect their borders, are trying to improve their economies, and are trying create jobs, the Greeks decided to vote in far leftists, trotskyists, leninists, marxists and other assorted commies. Yes i know the 40 years before didnt give them much confidence in voting for the same old same old, but as has been mentioned the left has been de-facto running Greece since 1981 anyway, infiltrating all segments of Greek society.

In only the few months they've been in power, SYRIZA have been playing political games with the rest of Europe, running on rhetoric and the country seems to be going backwards as hard as it is to believe.

Hopefully Greece one day will have politicians who give a stuff about Greece and Greek interests.

 

There's an issue here, because Greece finds itself facing a double edged sword. Syriza is defiant in regards to the EU while the past governments were too submissive. Both are very dangerous for the country and more importantly our boarders. Don't be fooled into thinking that the elite members of the EU/EZ care about the boarders of Greece or the continent as whole. 

 

Lets look at ND and PASOK for instance: Too submissive, to the point where fire selling Greek islands for chump change seemed like a good idea.(Something I find to be the most disgusting act of treason committed since Pangalos' and Simitis' actions during the Imia crisis) For some that don't know some islands fell to turkish hands, who decorated their new islands with a nice little turkish flag. They were also too submissive in regards to the Dublin II treaty. So if you are too submissive to European  interests you have no choice but to endanger your boarders as the ultimate goal of the Dublin resolution is to pick and choose the cream of the crop as far as who enters the EU, allow the EU to get on their philanthropist/humanitarian high horses, and turn a blind eye as Greece drowns in Imami immigration. The submissiveness of the past governments once again shines through when you look at how Italy and other Mediterranean countries reacted to the Dublin treaty. The outcome? 95-99% of all illegal immigrants entering Europe, now enter through Greece.

 

Now lets look at Syriza: Aside form the obvious leftist view towards immigrants, Syriza is too defiant (not that there's anything wrong with it as, like we said, it IS what Greeks voted for) in that we risk asking the EU/EZ/IMF for too much and considering a Grexit an actual possibility. Greece does not produce arms, and something tells me that when we're trying to barter with our arms suppliers using the drachma, our friendly neighbors to the east will look for an opportunity  to cause another Imia like crisis or "episode". Not to mention that as of right now, to some degree our Nato and EU memberships keep things from progressing too far towards turkish interests, something I don't feel we can count on if we start moving politically towards Russia.  

 

 

 

 

So basically our boarders are F***ed no matter how you slice it. Maybe Xrish Augh might be a good solution for a few years but then again who would take them seriously in Europe? Maybe Aneksartitoi Ellhnes are a better solution(my personal opinion). But will the Greek public ever view them as a solution?

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@ Che, has Greece actually sold islands ?  Surely this can't be serious.

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The problem with Golden Dawn is that got violent very quickly.  If they had a simple policy of tightening up the borders then that's a great policy.  Instead, they went around beating people.  Not the best look.  What next, Greeks that don't agree with them ?

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I find it hard to be angry with Syriza.  Some of their ideas annoy me, even astound me, because in this day and age it can't work like that anymore.  For proof they only need look back to the failures of the last 3 decades.  But all in all, I just find them naive.

 

As for ND/PASOK, I have a white-hot burning anger towards them, because they knew better.  They are not naive and know how things work.  But they didn't do anything about it.  Posters here will say it was because there was too much resistance from the left.  Bollocks.  They were comfortable and happy to sit on the throne.  As long as they got to eat lobster every night, what did they care.  Just see Kostas Karamanlis for an example of a rat.

 

Legally they may have not broken any laws, but morally and in my eyes, they are criminals of the highest order.  They were in charge of the nation, and instead chose to line their own pockets.  Bravo, enjoy your lobsters. 

 

 

its not a matter of being angry at 'syriza'.......'Syriza' are just an acronym for the far left that has 'controlled' Greek collective consciousness for 6 decades......they are KKE in drag....

these guys have a 'freedom fighter' perception regarding N17 and the likes of Xiros....

 

Very difficult to run a country 'progressively'... when the 'collective ideology' is dreaming up of other conflicting ideologies...

 

PASOK/ND are 'left' by Modern Western standards they had to play the game just to stay in power..

 

the likes of Samaras,Papandreou junior, Karamanlis, junior, Bakoyianni, Venizelos are highly intelligent and worldly people...they know exactly what Greece needs but are powerless to implement...

 

 

ANY COMPARISON TO ICELAND IS BEYOND ABSURD...  A bit like the nonsense of if we leave the Euro and return to the drachma we will be flooded by tourists to save the day...As if greece is Fiji or Bali?

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@ Che, has Greece actually sold islands ?  Surely this can't be serious.

 

Yes, a lot of islands had been sold off between Papandreous, Papademo, and Samaras' times in office.....There are a few websites online with islands and their pricing, this is one is one of many I have run across.  During GPapandreous time there was a HUGE privatization program that switched many islands, companies and programs from public property to private property up for sale. 

 

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/areas/greece

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/24/greece-islands-sale-save-economy

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ANY COMPARISON TO ICELAND IS BEYOND ABSURD...  A bit like the nonsense of if we leave the Euro and return to the drachma we will be flooded by tourists to save the day...As if greece is Fiji or Bali?

on reflection you're quite correct, we need to keep the status quo, and continue with the austerity that the troika has demanded, even if people are losing their jobs and properties as a result. greeks are too stupid to run things on their own like the icelanders, and need the protection and benefits the EU offers. the thought of being a sovereign state is too much to comprehend.

 

 

the likes of Samaras,Papandreou junior, Karamanlis, junior, Bakoyianni, Venizelos are highly intelligent and worldly people...they know exactly what Greece needs but are powerless to implement...

why are they powerless?? maybe its because the troika dictate policy in greece, which means that SYRIZA are equally powerless, hence it doesn't matter who's in perceived power in greece. they won't leave the EU and go it alone as that's 'beyond absurd' so therefore who's in government matters not.

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Any discussion that proposes XA as a viable alternative is not serious. If the electorate honestly believed that a bunch of illogical fascist thugs would some how improve the nation's standings and progress the quality of ordinary Greeks then Greece is doomed. We would be a pariah nation. Not even North Korea or Iran would acknowledge us.

SYRIZA has been in power for less that 4 months. Yes they have mishandled the negotiations with the "troika" but they were largely elected to end this crippling austerity and renegotiate terms of the bailout.

Tsipras and his government may well fall in a heap and we'll have elections very soon, but until there's some move to either leave the EZ, continue in a similar course to what's happened the last 5 years or try to implement proper reforms then we can't judge them. Bigoted anti-Hellene posters fill the comments sections on theguardian and other British news sites. We shouldn't canibalise ourselves on here as well.

What I think should of happened very early on is that a coalition of all parties (probably excluding KKE and definitely the Golden Yawn fascists) should have been working in unity to move forward and out of this decayed society. I'm not sure how that would work given the polarised views amongst the parties but electing tainted ideologies won't solve the current economic and societal issues.

I remain open minded on SYRIZA but I can see them failing.

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the likes of Samaras,Papandreou junior, Karamanlis, junior, Bakoyianni, Venizelos are highly intelligent and worldly people...they know exactly what Greece needs but are powerless to implement...

 

 

Bakoyiannis is a stupid leftist, she loves Islam:

 

"There is a general misconception, based on false readings of the Qur`an, that Islam treats women as inferior to men,"

 

Very stupid woman... here is the reality:

 

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

 

Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

 

Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?'  They replied in the affirmative.  He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

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In fact I would rarely describe any Greek politician as intelligent. 

Edited by Reaper

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      So, president-elect Trump....  We'll be watching but who can say what he'll actually do? How do you judge his first moves and statements?
       
    • By tantra129
      Some posters in here are for him, others against him.
      Closing in on a year, I think he's done a lot of good. 
      Here he is one.
      http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-turdeau-kevin-garratt-china-canada-1.3767555
      He has also restored relations with our neighbors to the south 
    • By Reaper
      The hotly anticipated Jason Bourne 5 is now in filming and they selected Greece to play a major part in the film. Original director and team are back so this will be the smash of 2016.
       
      Sadly the Greek Government did not want the film shot in Greece, so they instead will shoot the Athens/Greece scenes in Tenerife..  :tdown:
       

       

       
      http://www.gazzetta.gr/plus/article/802525/dioxame-ton-mat-nteimon-kai-i-tenerifi-egine-ellada-pics
       
      Game of Thrones found similar problems.. and they also decided to go elsewhere.
    • By tantra129
      Very curious to see the result of this
       
      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-syria-concerns-putin-russia.html?_r=0
       
      MIDDLE EAST Israeli Leader to Visit Moscow Over Concerns About Russian Moves in Syria
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