greece The Greek Economy Thread

[gyros]

This is what I don't get and why I have zero trust in this clown show.  Tsipras will always say he's optimistic and a deal is close blah blah etc...  Then he will lash out in a newspaper article on the EU.  How can you do that when you claim a deal is close and how is that beneficial by lashing out the day after you act like everything is ok.  Adults don't negotiate like that and how can anyone trust this guy when he backpeddles.

[Bananas]

Good link http://graphics.wsj.com/greece-debt-timeline/ that shows all the upcoming repayments.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Bananas

[js1000]

 

 

today, an honest statesman needs to go on tv and tell the lao that greece isn't a wealthy enough nation to have it's citizens retire at 47 or 52. that those who lie and cheat the govt., do more harm to greece than turkish fighters buzzing barbounia boats in the aegean.

 

 

Also, regarding tax collection.....I also said how can syriza collect tax from 'working class people' effectively???  how can syriza be seen as 'punishing the masses'?

why is it that people believe the western media narrative of greek people not paying tax as the problem to Greece's financial problems but don't get nearly as riled about the real cause, when you have corruption to this degree bankrupting the country i also wouldn't want to pay tax to a bent system.

 

 

 

REVEALED: HOW EC COMMISSIONER LORD HILL AND HIS CONTROLLER DAVID CAMERON ARE COVERING UP GERMAN CORRUPTION IN GREECE.

 

 

Sorry guys, i don't think early retirement generous pensions and tax avoidance by working people is nearly as damaging as this, and there are many more.

Edited June 4, 2015 by js1000

[gyros]

Greece is the last country since Zambia to bundle the IMF payments.  That sounds about right.  We should be in Africa.

[Bananas]

Gyros, you need to chill out with the hate.  It's bad for the soul.

[RED SHERIFF]

@js1000

 

 

 

we got ourselves in this mess....

 

no we dont collect enough taxes, we are an extreme Union infested labour market regulated by systems that can not work...

the rest is all diversion from our real issues...

 

 

there is no conspiracy....we got ourselves in debt... we have NO plan...

[js1000]

 

 

there is no conspiracy....we got ourselves in debt... we have NO plan...

I have alleged no conspiracy, all i'm saying is when greek finance ministers cook books with goldman to join the euro and then goldman take millions in consultancy fees while betting on greece to fail, and when the greek defence minister takes bribes from german defence contractors resulting in millions being borrowed from german banks to buy german made military equipment, i find this far more damaging to the greek economy than 10 year degrees, generous pensions, union militancy and working people avoiding tax.

now i realise the latter doesn't help, however i'm bemused as to why more energy is given discussing the latter, its as though the bigwigs are given a free pass.

 

Former Greek defence minister jailed for 20 years for corruption

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32a685c0-2f6d-11e3-8cb2-00144feab7de.html#axzz3cBGfJ03g

 

these are bigger reasons for Greece's problems, it winds me up hearing - specially from fellow greeks - that the people of Greece are stupid lazy idle tax dodgers with generous pensions and its the greek 'mentality' thats caused it all(its like reading the English press). sure it might contribute but it pails into insignificance when you look at the wastage coming from the top. I'd be furious if my pension/wages in Greece was cut knowing what goes on at the top, I wouldn't want the state to get a penny in tax from me when most gets wasted and funnelled into overseas accounts.  

[gyros]

The finance books were cooked but Greece between 2002-2007 was an all out party.  Everybody was spending money like crazy.  Its not like a few people took advantage of the situation, it was a lot of the country.  Case in point, the last time I went there I ran into this guy who worked in a Auto Body shop and he was saying that before the economy tanked he was making 4-500 euros a day.  That is big money.  You had everyone buying BMW's, third houses, land etc..  It was like someone gave free reign to the fat kid at the candy shop.  Now the banks want the money back and of course the Greeks are crying conspiracy.  Yet, they probably have a 2004 C class MB in the driveway.

[js1000]

bit like the UK and US really, banks lent irresponsibly to those they knew couldn't pay back what they borrowed, they did it for a quick buck/bonus/commission, it was obvious it would go tits up, yes some people were stupid, borrowed too much and spent borrowed money, but you and other posters on here are happy to overlook the money the governments squandered through corruption and incompetence, why do you give a free reign to those at the top who squandered more than the average working greeks did, and when i point it out posters get defensive saying there's 'no conspiracy' or 'greeks crying conspiracy' our former defence minister was jailed for 20 years how much did he on his own squander? and he wasn't the only one, why are you happy to overlook that and point the finger squarely at the 'greek mentality' greek people the'left' the 'unions' etc, sure it all contributes but pails into insignificance when you look at the corruption from those at the top. 

 

 

 Now the banks want the money back and of course the Greeks are crying conspiracy.  Yet, they probably have a 2004 C class MB in the driveway.

Firstly i have no problem with those who have second homes nice cars etc, why shouldn't they? secondly, where did the banks that loaned the money actually get it from? they are private companies, if they lend irresponsibly and don't get their money back well thats their tough luck as far as i'm concerned, F*** em. Small businesses don't get bailed out and neither should banks via the government at the expense of working people.

[gyros]

You also don't seem to have a problem with all the Greek Farm subsidies that are stolen by the "working" people who claimed they owned a bunch of livestock or farmed land which they didn't.  Or the "working" people who worked at offices that provided drivers licenses to people who made 200k a year by taking bribes.  So no matter what, if you come up with 600 euros, no matter how bad your driving skills are, you get a drivers license.   

 

I have questions for you...

 

Is it ok to report you own 300 sheep when you only own 50 and collect thousands of EU subsidies?

Is it ok to say that you have x amount of acres of a certain crop when in fact you don't even have 1 acre and collect thousands of EU subsidies?

Is it ok to pay a $600 or more bribe to get a drivers license when you can't pass the driving test?

 

Frankly I don't think its ok.  You can talk about banks loaning Greece money and thats fine but you can't just ignore all the corruption from the people and the mentality of pillaging the government.  Everyone is robbing the government.  From the elites to the farmers.

[gyros]

That is true too.  Greeks are #1 at telling every company to get lost.  The government will feed them.  I'm ashamed that a country like Portugal can pull through and we have this ugly mentality.

[RED SHERIFF]

no one is over looking the 'corrupt' and incompetent politicians....we have debated this issue many times..

 

the problem is that this deflects away (conveniently) the socio political problems that have been festering for 40 - 60 years...

 

there is an unhealthy mind set psyche in Greek people that continually  looks for these 'outside influences' instead of their own short comings...

 

the former defence Minister pockets 50 million???  what's the point arguing when the tax man can't collect a cent....Or red tape stops me from opening up a business in a quick productive manner......

in a soccer analogy it would be like Andorra blaming a loss to Germany because the ref did not give them a penalty or two when the score finished 0-10....

 

The 10 year uni degree types are the ones who run media reporting and are all in government....they talk about 'Scandinavian social welfare systems'....  But have no idea how Denmark or Sweden collect tax or do business...

 

 

until we realise there is no German/UK/USA/NATO/EU conspiracy plan to screw us over the better....

[js1000]

You also don't seem to have a problem with all the Greek Farm subsidies that are stolen by the "working" people who claimed they owned a bunch of livestock or farmed land which they didn't.  Or the "working" people who worked at offices that provided drivers licenses to people who made 200k a year by taking bribes.  So no matter what, if you come up with 600 euros, no matter how bad your driving skills are, you get a drivers license.   

 

I have questions for you...

 

Is it ok to report you own 300 sheep when you only own 50 and collect thousands of EU subsidies?

Is it ok to say that you have x amount of acres of a certain crop when in fact you don't even have 1 acre and collect thousands of EU subsidies?

Is it ok to pay a $600 or more bribe to get a drivers license when you can't pass the driving test?

 

Frankly I don't think its ok.  You can talk about banks loaning Greece money and thats fine but you can't just ignore all the corruption from the people and the mentality of pillaging the government.  Everyone is robbing the government.  From the elites to the farmers.

fair point but if we weren't in the EU then these subsidies wouldn't be available, which come with strings attached. So many EU grants all around Europe have disappeared and are unaccounted for its not just a Greek problem.

why are you outraged by people pillaging the government but not by the government/banks pillaging the people by taking loans in exchange for far higher bribes than some bent driving examiner got. no one seems concerned with a minister pocketing millions in bribes in exchange for fleecing his own country. 

The more money people have the more they spend which is better for everyone, austerity cannot work. 

 

 

the former defence Minister pockets 50 million???  what's the point arguing when the tax man can't collect a cent....Or red tape stops me from opening up a business in a quick productive manner......

red tape is not the fault of the person trying to start a new business, those at the top make the laws(red tape). Besides austerity/cuts cause unemployment not growth that's why the taxman can't collect a cent.

 

until we realise there is no German/UK/USA/NATO/EU conspiracy plan to screw us over the better....

nice, put words into my mouth, i never said any of the above, just pointed out that the EU is corrupt/incompetent and unaudited, i don't think there's anything controversial in that sentence, perhaps we should be more concerned with that and their pillaging rather than be upset that some mechanic was earning big money back in the day in Greece, or some farmer that squeezed a little something off this pathetic organisation.  

 

 

greece sold bonds to pay for early and generous retirements, social programs along with bloated public sector jobs, and those subsequent benefits. a family member retired from OTE at age 47 - full pension and govt. paid his kids high education. another example was olympic airways, before it went belly-up. with routes and equipment, olympic had 3xs the amount of employees needed to run the daily operations. a vote for this MP, saw a few dozen employees show up to work to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee all day.

Again this isn't the fault of people who are now having to suffer cuts/austerity and tax increases dictated to them by a foreign power. I get more upset when those at the top rip off the taxpayer to a far higher degree and it seems people are happy to let that slide and focus on 'generous pensions' and a 'bloated public sector' but who run the public sector? Its like the BBC in the UK, overstaffed generous pensions money being wasted and blown on nonsense yet people in England are outraged at those on benefits, they dutifully pay their license fee and are proud of their great BBC.

 

yes, i agree, many simple folk who have no clue of what has happened in greece dismiss the saga as 'lazy' or 'scamming' greeks. this isn't a media conspiracy - it's just ignorant, lazy people living in a world of twitter with a need of having 2 or 3 words describing a complex and intricate issue.

let's face it, some can't stand greeks and greece...so regardless of situation, they will always make a negative comment. you can never change their minds.

the above is true, the same is true for most hacks in the UK, but who alleged a 'media conspiracy'? 

[RED SHERIFF]

the issue is that we do not have a plan to create growth or jobs...

 

we have a system that is deliberately not competitive...  it is very simplistic not to understand the political pressure that is placed on political parties to 'govern in a certain way'.  the collective are not in a 21st century mindset....  we do not encourage investment...therefore much needed jobs will never be created... the 'red tape' is there and protected by the people as much by government....

 

protected industries'....'hazardous jobs'???  early pensions, entire villages declared invalids?  'Asylo"????protected labour markets...

 

we were told here that Bulgaria and Croatia have done ok...and we should follow in their footsteps.......Bulgaria have lost 20% of their population in the last decade...Does the 'greek lao' want Croatian and Bulgarian standards of living and  labour laws?

 

there is a complex web of inefficiency and total lack of imagination and creativity, lack of vision and business blueprint in the greek system that got us in this mess....way before the EU or others got involved...

 

one only needs to listen to a few minutes of greek media to understand how misguided the 'lao' is.....the total lack of understanding of the 'evil capitalst ways' is glaringly scary.

[js1000]

Bulgaria lost 20% of their population as a direct result of joining the EU, as much as their tourist industry and construction was booming there, skilled workers realised they could earn more working in places like England Germany and Scandanavia.

 

Back to Greece, did you know as part of the terms dictated to Greece by the EU/Troika are demands for further low cost privatisation that only really benefit foreign companies, one scandalous example that stands out from a long list is that of 28 buildings sold in 2013 by the Greek state, it still uses them and must pay the new owners ?600m in rent over the next 20 years, almost triple their sale price. 

Thats the kind of thing that i object to and don't feel its fair for Greek people to foot the bill for, whilst being told they are lazy misguided etc etc. 

 

If you lived there and saw this sort of thing happening you wouldn't want to give them a penny of your taxes, i know i wouldn't.

Edited June 8, 2015 by js1000

[js1000]

 

 

The only Greek victims in this whole crisis are those who genuinely wanted change and had to spoil their ballot because they knew what more ND/PASOK/SYRIZA would bring.

Exactly, elections in Greece are pointless because who ever comes in is completely bent/irresponsible and corrupt, so regardless of who Greeks voluntarily voted in, the corruption/red tape/bureaucracy remains. Now we have EU corruption on top of that to deal with also. So who should greeks have elected that would have brought an end to all these horrific practices? 

 

 

You are typical of many Greeks in Greece. You seek to blame before taking responsibility for your own actions.  Greeks made their bed, now they can sleep in it

you're fairly typical of many people, who neglect to put blame where it really lies which is above, and point out the the pennies normal people manage to squeeze off the state. now i realise it all adds up but those at the top have syphoned off far more and want those at the bottom to pay for it through cuts etc. even if Greeks took responsibility worked harder paid all their taxes, it would all disappear, i doubt the greek state would spend it on improving the country.

 

 

No European would tolerate the systems in place in Greece. As I said, in Spain politicians are constantly being caught with their hands in the till, but even they have the brains to realise you have to generate money as a country in order to steal something in the first place.

Once again politicians being caught robbing the state blind, and they face no consequences, while people look to blame each other.

Greeks do have the brains to realise that money needs to be generated, which is why state assets are sold, the proceeds disappear and the greeks are then asked to cough up, you know the ones that got nothing from the sell off.  

 

Maybe we should just give up some land in exchange for debt relief and let the germans or Brits run our affairs as we're incapable.

[gyros]

Js1000...  You don't get it.  Here is a personal example of how corrupt the country is.

 

I have a relative who is a farmer.  He sells his crop to a middleman and they in turn pay him.  Well they paid him a partial amount and said they would pay him the rest later in the season.  Well he got ripped off thousands of Euros and there is no recourse.  He's not the only farmer.

 

I have relatives who work and don't get paid for months and when they do get paid, they only get 50% they are due.  Its bullshit like this that isn't tolerated in a civilized country.  That is why I cringe when people are talking about Bulgaria, Croatia, and who knows what other country.  For all the s%$#! people want to say about the EU, at least they brought structure and laws.  But Greeks don't want that.  They want to be ripped off by everyone from the taxi driver, to the people running the Acropolis, etc...

 

When I was a kid and went to my mother's village which sucked by the way.  It was in the middle of nowhere.  Anyway, there was a little store there that I would go with my little sister and buy a coke or an ice cream, whatever.  The owner of the store saw that we were Americans and ripped us off.  Unbelievable.  They ripped off a 13 year and his 9 year old sister at the time.  Stuff like this doesn't happen in civilized countries.  That is the Greek mentality.  To pillage and steal from anyone.

Edited June 8, 2015 by gyros

[Bananas]

until we realise there is no German/UK/USA/NATO/EU conspiracy plan to screw us over the better....

 

Both right and wrong ... sort of.  There isn't a conspiracy as such.  It's not like the EU was designed to bring down Greece or any other nation.  But, the EU right now is in a tug of war (which overall they are winning) to try and control Greece.  I don't mean control in the diabolical sense of the word, but they are trying to "fix" Greece and make it work like how a country "should" work.  And they are astounded at the Greek resistance/stubbornness to this.

 

But here's the thing.  They can't fix it.  For proof just look at the lack of reforms since 2008.  If ever there was a time that Greece could have brought in reforms, that was the time.  But why hasn't it happened ??

 

And this is where the EU fails.  They think it can just happen ... like magic.  You can't change the mentality of a nation in a space of a few years.  And you certainly can't use the opportunity of a nation being on it's knees to try and force your will.  People resist ... it's in their make up.  It just is.

 

The only way Greece can change is on it's own, not with a gun pointed at it's head.  People just don't take kindly to threats.  And the change will be incremental and gradual over many years or decades, or it won't but it will be their choice to make, not somebody else's.

 

I really do believe Greece is better off without the Euro and the EU technocrats trying to govern it.  They can't govern Greeks.  Greeks can't govern Greeks and some no name whoever is going to do the job ?  Spare me.

[Bananas]

They ripped off a 13 year and his 9 year old sister at the time.  Stuff like this doesn't happen in civilized countries.  That is the Greek mentality.  To pillage and steal from anyone.

 

Whoever did that to you and your sister is a c*** plain and simple.  I know that Greek mentality.  He probably bragged about it afterwards and gave himself a pat on the back but not all Greeks in Greece are like that.

[Bananas]

And so Greece missed an IMF payment a few days ago.  The doomsday scenario happened and no one really noticed.  The media were oddly quiet as well.  Normally they are screeching like parrots about anything to do with the Greek economy.

 

The EU kicked the can down the road to Greece and Greece just squashed the can.  Oops, sorry.  So, the EU and the IMF just made another can.  Now Greece has to the end of the month ...

 

I really wish this situation would be resolved.  Either allow Greece to stop using the Euro, or start printing money to get growth happening (with all the problems and moral dangers that entails) but this situation as it stands is farcical.

[Akritis_1944]

Js1000... You don't get it. Here is a personal example of how corrupt the country is.

I have a relative who is a farmer. He sells his crop to a middleman and they in turn pay him. Well they paid him a partial amount and said they would pay him the rest later in the season. Well he got ripped off thousands of Euros and there is no recourse. He's not the only farmer.

I have relatives who work and don't get paid for months and when they do get paid, they only get 50% they are due. Its bullshit like this that isn't tolerated in a civilized country. That is why I cringe when people are talking about Bulgaria, Croatia, and who knows what other country. For all the s%$#! people want to say about the EU, at least they brought structure and laws. But Greeks don't want that. They want to be ripped off by everyone from the taxi driver, to the people running the Acropolis, etc...

When I was a kid and went to my mother's village which sucked by the way. It was in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, there was a little store there that I would go with my little sister and buy a coke or an ice cream, whatever. The owner of the store saw that we were Americans and ripped us off. Unbelievable. They ripped off a 13 year and his 9 year old sister at the time. Stuff like this doesn't happen in civilized countries. That is the Greek mentality. To pillage and steal from anyone.

I'm sorry you were scammed and whomever was responsible needed a punch on the nose but you sound bitter and twisted.

I live 3 kilometres from the Australian Parliament and yesterday I was scammed from a local Australian business. By your reckoning this shouldn't have happened here.

I've caught plenty of taxis in Greece and visited the Acropolis but according to people like you, I must have been lucky as I wasn't scammed.

Fancy referring to some village in the "middle of nowhere" as sucking! I assume you haven't returned since you were 13? As an "adult" looking back did you honestly expect your mother's village should have been the Principality of Monaco?!

You're no different to what some of the Jewish-Americans refer to some in their community as self-hating Jews.

Modern Greece and her society has many, many pressing issues and you offer nothing but miseria. I'm glad you live in the USA and I hope you have changed your name so that you're not considered as a representative of Greece. There are decent people in Greece as there are in North Korea or Turkey or Pakistan. You trade in offensive sterotypes which I can read on The Guardian or Telegraph's websites comment section. I don't want to read your petty gripes on a Greek forum. I hope you continue to post though, I'm not censoring you. Posters here should see how diaspora Greeks shouldn't act.

Good day.

[Bananas]

Not sure what "epos tou 40" is.

 

I don't think it's as simple as what you're saying.  If the EU just wanted it's money back it would have never lent the money in the first place with the terms as agreed.  They would have either lent the money on a short term basis, maybe 10 years or so with some sort of collateral.  I know, the idea sounds farcical since the amount almost exceeds the nations GDP.  What do you provide as collateral ?

 

Even if Greece did everything that is asked of them, the final payments aren't due to 2054.  2054, that's a long way away and it tells me that EU may want it's money back, but they sure are patient and are prepared to wait a long time to get it all back.

 

The EU is this romantic idea that's kind of evolved where the end goal was always to have a kind of United States but a European version.  That is the idea anyway.  And in this model of course the EU dictate how things are run.  How could it be otherwise ?  If it can't dictate how Europe is run, what is it's purpose ?

 

Do you really think the people voted out ND because of computer chips?  Surely there is more to it.  The main platform or promise of Syriza was to (however unrealistic) end the austerity.  The austerity is real and it's not an acceptable trade-off to the man in the street.  There is real suffering and despair, and worst of all, a general lack of hope for the future.  The people merely voted in the party that gave them the most hope.  I'm sure the average Greek citizen would happily pay taxes if they genuinely knew most of it would be used properly.  But it's hard to erase 50+ years of thinking.  Hence, the intransigence.

[gyros]

I'm sorry you were scammed and whomever was responsible needed a punch on the nose but you sound bitter and twisted.

I live 3 kilometres from the Australian Parliament and yesterday I was scammed from a local Australian business. By your reckoning this shouldn't have happened here.

I've caught plenty of taxis in Greece and visited the Acropolis but according to people like you, I must have been lucky as I wasn't scammed.

Fancy referring to some village in the "middle of nowhere" as sucking! I assume you haven't returned since you were 13? As an "adult" looking back did you honestly expect your mother's village should have been the Principality of Monaco?!

You're no different to what some of the Jewish-Americans refer to some in their community as self-hating Jews.

Modern Greece and her society has many, many pressing issues and you offer nothing but miseria. I'm glad you live in the USA and I hope you have changed your name so that you're not considered as a representative of Greece. There are decent people in Greece as there are in North Korea or Turkey or Pakistan. You trade in offensive sterotypes which I can read on The Guardian or Telegraph's websites comment section. I don't want to read your petty gripes on a Greek forum. I hope you continue to post though, I'm not censoring you. Posters here should see how diaspora Greeks shouldn't act.

Good day.

 

See you want to attack the victim and still can't see the problem.  I have endless amounts of stories in Greece from when they would let Greeks in free at the Acropolis and charge foreign people, to the taxi drivers that will drive you in a loop if you don't know where you're going, to the stores in Greece that don't display prices and make stuff up when you pay depending on if you're a tourist.  For the record, I did go to the village and spent a few weeks a couple years back.  You just can't see in front of your eyes how screwed up Greek society is.  The Greeks even tell you in Greece that we deserve this.  But hey, you ignored the petty gripes for years and the petty gripes have turned into a death spiral.  Enjoy defending theft and corruption.  Sorry, I wasn't brought up to defend that stuff.  I have morals.

Edited June 9, 2015 by gyros

[Brklyngrk]

The ripping off of tourists is not just a phenomenon found in Greece.  These types of things happen all over the world.  In NYC, taxi cabs would routinely overcharge tourists especially from the airports. That is why they were forced to adopt fixed pricing.  There was an article in the paper how some food vendors charged tourists $30 for a hotdog and coke. These things happen everywhere.  I was in Rome talking to the owner of this boutique hotel I had stayed at.  The minute it was time to leave, he said that he would hail me a cab (of course he couldn't help me with my bags because he has a bad back but that's another story). As I was walking to the cab, I heard him go up to the taxi driver and tell him we were Americans for no reason. There are always going to be those who look at tourists as easy pickings. 

[gyros]

Well put Reaper.  Its not ripping off tourists.  Its Greeks ripping off each other and they take great pride in it.