greece The Greek Economy Thread

[RED SHERIFF]

Your not making sense. They cant be legitimate, They are clearly errors or fraud.

NO...

 

I am saying the system allowed for mothers with 4-5 kids to claim a generous pension for life...regardless if their kids had migrated or not....

 

or an unmarried female is/was? allowed to claim her fathers pension....as long as she 'never married'

[RED SHERIFF]

@manolara...

 

all the anti fascist/italo nazi commie ...greek freedom fighter is very 'patriotic'....

 

we have all discussed on many occasions why ;its the greeks own fault'...

[Chriskiato]

NO...

 

I am saying the system allowed for mothers with 4-5 kids to claim a generous pension for life...regardless if their kids had migrated or not....

 

or an unmarried female is/was? allowed to claim her fathers pension....as long as she 'never married'

Ok. So just an outdated policy.

[Chriskiato]

Ok Just read that the Trioka are seeking more measures which is what I had anticipated. It s designed to be rejected by Greece and probably sometime in May. Remember Tsipras's Easter resurrection surprise! This could trigger the default Greece many have been anticipating that will trigger a horrendous global meltdown starting with Europe. Venezuela will follow Greece which will likely cause a contagion in South America and the USA.

 

All the above are based on the information I have received from my research and from economic analysts and trend forecasters. Its a worse case scenario. I cant predict with 100 % accuracy the future but I thought I would share it with the forum. Its just my opinion.

[Chriskiato]

Oh stop it with the hand signal nonsense.

I will tone it down. Its not nonsense to everyone. It is what it is lol.

[Korisos]

You are completely wrong. Money is printed freely on a press. They could print as much as they please. Fiat currency is not backed by anything. Money is therefore not the motive.

 

Mate, study who these luciferians are. I know it sounds crazy to you but what is going in the world right now is insane! It will only make sense then. Many analysts I follow are anticipating major events between now and October which is likely to be a global finance and economic collapse much greater than 2008!

 

No doubt we are due for a major correction of at least 30%. It's the end of an 8 year cycle that started in 2000-01 with the .com crash then in 2008 with the real estate crash and now 2016 with stock market + real estate crash about to happen. 

 

Add to this the fact that many US workers will retire this year and start withdrawing from their pension funds. There are more than 10,000 Americans retiring everyday. 

 

On the other hand, it will be an amazing short selling opportunity to become very, very rich. 

 

You're right, Fiat is not backed by any hard asset (like gold). It literally comes into existence out of thin air drawn from a checking account with nothing in it and miraculously off the printing press comes the currency! It only has value because the people using the currency still believe it has value. 

[Chriskiato]

Well China may announce today that their currency will be backed by Gold! Is this the end of the petro dollar?

[Tzatziki]

You are completely wrong. Money is printed freely on a press. They could print as much as they please. Fiat currency is not backed by anything. Money is therefore not the motive.

 

I have seen photos of these hand signals by high profile people but these things can be easily photo shopped. When you see it happening in front of your eyes on television by a world leader it sends shivers down your spine.

 

Mate, study who these luciferians are. I know it sounds crazy to you but what is going in the world right now is insane! It will only make sense then. Many analysts I follow are anticipating major events between now and October which is likely to be a global finance and economic collapse much greater than 2008!

 

I don't know what Fiat currency has anything to do with what I posted...

 

If hand singnals send shivers down your spine I don't know what to say. Money makes the world go round not secret social clubs or occult mysticism. 

[Chriskiato]

You quoted its all to do with $$$.

 

Looks like the yuan being backed by gold was just speculation for now

[Chriskiato]

You must be confused. Its called reform..... ;)

[gyros]

I think its called reality. If you only make $500 a month, then you can't spend more than that.  Greece is so far down the drain that nothing can help them.  Syriza and Greece are the perfect match.

[Manolara]

@manolara...

 

all the anti fascist/italo nazi commie ...greek freedom fighter is very 'patriotic'....

 

we have all discussed on many occasions why ;its the greeks own fault'...

You do realize that being in the Eurozone, Greece can't print any of it's own money, correct? So how did Greece get more money without increasing productivity or revenue? How did Spain, Ireland, Italy, Portugal? How did all these countries, at the same time, all see increases in their property market and stockmarket and all crash at the same time? 

Then your rationalization as to why a bankrupt, nepotistic, corrupt, dysfunctional state should receive loans to the tune of 100% of GDP to pay off debt of 160% of GDP, is what exactly? The political and wealthy class have no incentive to change the country and have information before anyone else, giving them time to position themselves, and their wealth, to be clear from the austerity measures. 

And the IMF+ECB are giving Greece loans out of the goodness of their hearts? 

Either way your conclusion is that the EU, IMF, ECB are all naive. Greece is too rigid in it's socio-economic ideology that it will never change to a modern, westernized, capitalistic utopia. Yet it was allowed in the EU, and plenty of loans are given to Greece to change/pay off debt.

So all of you that criticise Greece knew better than the EU when it allowed Greece in the EU and again when they voted to force Greece to take on loans. 

Yet none of you can accept that they all knew exactly what they where doing, and they didn't care.

Most of the debt Greece owed was to private institutions, which lent out willy nilly, much like what happened in the American financial crisis in 2007, to countries all over Europe. Greece was in the worst position due to it's political corruption, inefficiency and poor governance over the years that emptied state coffers. The private debt was then offloaded into public institutions around Europe but Greece got the blame to cover up for Deutsche Bank and the rest. The Irish government had enough room to take on the bad debts, same with Spain, Italy and the rest. Yet was the banks reckless spending ever questioned and blamed? Were the policies of the European Union blamed for allowing such poorly run nations into the Union? Were political parties blamed? Was anyone put in jail? No. It's ALL Greece's fault. 

The majority of Greeks who did the right thing have to pay for the corruption of the political and wealthy classes and you're all here saying "they deserve it". They protested all the time! Every political party is no different from the other! Xrysi Avgi is different from the norm yet there's still criticism for Greeks choosing them when they have no other options?

Then you make jokes when I mention revolution? We've had Syriza, N.D, PASOK in power and they've done F*** all. Yet Greeks are still blamed for voting them in... :S 

It's easy to criticise and "know better" living abroad watching ERT and MEGA, thinking you're better than the Greeks in Greece because you live in Australia, USA, U.K, and that somehow makes you better. But you all come of as narcissistic, arrogant pricks. 

[RED SHERIFF]

yep Manolara..

 

you are right...Greece needs to start a socialist revolution...and destroy the capitalist system....

 

more strikes..more anti west protests..more university sit ins...more 10 year degrees in nothing...more businesses closed down due to inflexible unions..

 

all this justified because we fought the Nazis...and Mussolini

 

 

the 'rest of them' play by the rules..we do not want to..

 

we can default and print worthless new drachma......then what?    will it be easier to set up a business and hire staff?  NEVER...

 

Just keep blaming us in the diaspora...because we simply just do not get it......

[Chriskiato]

Red sheriff forgot to mention about the conspiracies all Greeks talk about in the cafeterias and cant possibly get any work done!

 

Complains about the generous pensions but doesn't know how the pension system actually works.

 

RS Australians strike all the time, and is very corrupt also. We are full of pedophiles, terrorists and gangs. I cant stand living in Sydney anymore.

[Bananas]

yep Manolara..

 

you are right...Greece needs to start a socialist revolution...and destroy the capitalist system....

 

more strikes..more anti west protests..more university sit ins...more 10 year degrees in nothing...more businesses closed down due to inflexible unions..

 

all this justified because we fought the Nazis...and Mussolini

 

 

the 'rest of them' play by the rules..we do not want to..

 

we can default and print worthless new drachma......then what?    will it be easier to set up a business and hire staff?  NEVER...

 

Just keep blaming us in the diaspora...because we simply just do not get it......

 

Did you read Manolara's post before posting ?

 

He is clearly stating that Greece is and has been a dysfunctional nation economically.  They should never have received the loans they got.

 

As to why the loans were given, we can only speculate.

 

1) The EU, IMF, ECB did not know this.  In this case they are manifestly incompetent.

 

2) The EU, IMF, ECB knew this but were optimists.  In this case they are manifestly unwise.

 

3) The EU, IMF, ECB knew this but gave the money knowing there was a good chance Greece would get into trouble.  This then begs the question, why did they do it ?  And that question has many possibilities.

 

When you are a small player you have to play by the rules.  But when you're a big player you can always move the goal posts.

 

My understanding of Manolara's post is that ALL of the blame going onto Greece and its citizens is grossly unfair, as they are not 100% to blame.  Now if we want to work out what percentage of the blame should be on the current Greek government, what percentage on previous Greek governments, what percentage on its citizens, what percentage on the EU, what percentage on the IMF, what percentage on the ECB ... that is another study in itself.

 

As to "good" citizens in Australia paying their taxes, I can assure you they wouldn't be such good citizens if they could easily get away with not paying tax.  They pay because they must.  Because it's not easy in Australia for the average person to get away with not paying.  Because if the ATO catch you out, they are relentless in collecting the due amount and are also very well staffed.

 

P.S.  I really hope the upcoming vote for Brexit leads to the UK leaving the EU.  It's time the EU copped a good kick in the teeth.

[Chriskiato]

Nice posts by Manolara and Bananas.

 

RS hates Greece and loves Germany.

 

RS, explain why US National debt is over 19 trillion dollars. Its not exactly a success story now is it?

[Brklyngrk]

There is blame to go around....In Greece, while the people may not have taken out the loans, they were complicit in allowing the govn't to function. Any administration that would have said to cut spending would have been thrown out in minutes. The EU gave Greece loans as a way to integrate it more in the Eurozone but they also were complicit and turned a blind eye to any warning signs.  In the US, we may have $19 trillion in debt but we are still looked at as center of the financial world, if that doesn't define success, not sure what does. Having said that, most Americans do believe that reforms must be made to lower the national debt. The debt is not sustainable and most people know that.

[Chriskiato]

Americas debt is not sustainable either. Its the petrodollar keeping the US afloat but how long will that last??

 

Russia and China are starting to back their currencies with Gold. Its those currencies that are likely to be strong in the future.

[Chriskiato]

Is this a trick question? I don't know. The Fed? Is this a ponzy scheme?

[RED SHERIFF]

Greeks were complicit in a dysfunctional system...

 

 

the problem in Greece is the socio political landscape....and the people demand from the politicians exactly what they have asked for...

 

who has allowed the legal system to survive?   who has allowed the Tax dept. not to set targets on tax collectors and managers?

 

they are always looking for generous benefits and pointing the finger at others...there is no will for reform..

 

not sure what gangs in Sydney or pedophiles have to do with the Greek debt crisis?

 

we need to be careful of diverting away from our shortcomings...

 

asking why did they let us in?  why did they lend us money? etc..

 

none of these questions explain why we have no industry?  why we do not have a system that supports investment?

 

why do we elect a Prime minister who was throwing rocks at G8 summit??  these are the politicians we want...because they feed our kafeneio dribble..

[Brklyngrk]

The issue is that while we accepted bail outs, the accompanying reforms were never implemented or if implemented, at a very slow pace. When the reforms that were implemented finally got some traction, we had elections and Syriza came into power. They were able to do everything the Greek people had done the previous 5 years in just months.  This current administration set back the country 10 years!! ( I am being generous). Many of the required programs requested by the creditors have been necessary and long overdue.  They have the intellectual capital, just not at the political level.

[Bananas]

Debt by design

 

True, it's almost an inherent part of the fiat money system, as is inflation.  But what is the alternative ?  A return to the gold standard!  I'd rather stick with what we have now.  Too many people think that when "money" was backed by one specific precious metal, that the economic landscape was more stable than today, and it was anything but.  What is really needed is a way to get more money into more hands rather than the accumulation or concentration of money as has been happening in recent times.  For some perverse reason, the Fed and commercial banks don't seem to understand this.

 

 

Both Greece and its creditors are to blame for Greece's current state. What angers me and why I am strongly opposed to continued adoption of the euro is because since the beginning of the crisis, Greece has continuously needed bailouts. We find ourselves in the same position on a very frequent basis when the whole point of austerity is to make cuts but with the mindset that the economy will stabilize and things will eventually return to a better state.

 

Every economist with even half a brain has been saying for years now that the bail outs can't work.  That Greece needs not just debt relief, but much much more importantly growth and investment.  Even the IMF has been threatening that if Greece needs another bail out (which is likely) that they won't participate if it's the same old formula, because it just won't work.  This isn't about good or bad anymore.  It's not a morality play.  It's about what will get the country kick started again.  The EU formula has been tried for 5 years now and the results are there to see for everyone.

 

I can assure you that if Germany or France were in a similar position the EU would not have sat so idly.  This is what I mean by the small players have to play by the rules, but the big players can move the goal posts.  Just like the U.S. did in the 70's when the Bretton Woods system and the gold standard was not working anymore for them, so they changed the rules!

Edited April 28, 2016 by Bananas

[athinaios]

Great ideas and plans fail if you don't have the right people to implement them.

 

Also, enough of this "proud people" and whatever. Yeah, everyone is special....  But ...

 

Have you heard of "The Misery of Being Greek" [1975]   http://users.uoa.gr/~nektar/arts/prose/nikos_dimou_misfortune.htm'>

[Tzatziki]

Athinaios, for certain the problem is our own doing, but the terms of these bailouts and the measures and conditions that come with them is another issue. Groups like the IMF do not intervene in countries like ours out of benevolence, I'm sure you are aware. They are vultures.

[Bananas]

Athinaios, for certain the problem is our own doing, but the terms of these bailouts and the measures and conditions that come with them is another issue. Groups like the IMF do not intervene in countries like ours out of benevolence, I'm sure you are aware. They are vultures.

 

Ha!  And if the vultures themselves don't want anything to do with Greece, how bare is the carcass!