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40 minutes ago, nick said:

Zeca is 100 times better than tziolis and so is Samaris. Also, kone was used as a Cm for AEK at times last yr. Tziolis is at least 8-9th down the list when it comes to options at cm

Kone can't defend.
Samaris Zeka are the obvious mate.

I will say Samaris and Zeka are the 1-2 and I am still waiting for the remaining 5-6 players above him.

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Hey guys, been a while 

I see nothings changed lol Skibbes still out to lunch and somehow tziolis has managed to stay relevant... Wtf. Thank go we didn't make the world cup and get embarrassed on the world stage with this dollar store coach. 

Torosidis could easily play dm, he did for oly a few times in the past. Not saying we should, but the option exists at least. But the massive problem as well has been skibbe playing a formation that requires wingers, and instead he uses cdm, cam, rb and lb's there. I have no f ing hope for nations league the way this is going. Even if he calls up good players, he won't play them all together. He's too stupid. Anyone who's down 4-1 on aggregate in the 2nd half of the 2nd leg that doesn't go all out offense, needs to have a CAT scan of his head. 

honestly he could drop fortounis back a bit and mandalos a bit higher or vice versa and have zeca as the true cdm or even have k paps be a cdm. He could even interchange with soks since he's played cdm as well. Options are there, this coaches brain is not however. Those are the types of experiments he should have been doing instead of the nonsense he tries in friendlies... Still can't believe we lost to SA lol what a joke 

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Samaris and Zeca are the 2 that should start. They are our best. Kourbelis should be the sub and Galanopoulos should be behind Kourbelis. That's all you need. Tziolis is not needed and Tachtsidis can go get some form for his club first. We don't need to be calling up 3 left backs, 5 CDMs and only 1 right back. Retsos can play all across the back. That's an advantage for us. K.Papadopoulos would a better option than Tziolis at CDM. @Rockafeller Skank there are plenty of other options for CDM. What we are missing that player that's in between a CDM and CAM. That's called CM. We haven't got one. Kone can play there or Fortounis. Mantalos I think should play there also. Thing is its not that we don't have players for these positions, it's who is reliable and deserves to play. Kourbelis to me is very average. Taxi too slow and Tziolis even slower. Androutsos might not be ready yet. He should be in a squad role though. Mantalos has all the tools to be an 8 in my opinion

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17 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

Pretty safe from your side to call me delusional, without naming someone better though, dont you think? I am waiting.

Rocka baby where have you been, you have come out swinging. Re Maik, I would have Sokratis or Torosidis ahead of Tzioli.

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4 hours ago, ausgreek said:

Rocka baby where have you been, you have come out swinging. Re Maik, I would have Sokratis or Torosidis ahead of Tzioli.

Tryharding for Graduation.

Honestly though Skibbe put Stafylidis at CDM and you guys were still talking s%$#! about him.

 

5 hours ago, Dean97 said:

Samaris and Zeca are the 2 that should start. They are our best. Kourbelis should be the sub and Galanopoulos should be behind Kourbelis. That's all you need. Tziolis is not needed and Tachtsidis can go get some form for his club first. We don't need to be calling up 3 left backs, 5 CDMs and only 1 right back. Retsos can play all across the back. That's an advantage for us. K.Papadopoulos would a better option than Tziolis at CDM. @Rockafeller Skank there are plenty of other options for CDM. What we are missing that player that's in between a CDM and CAM. That's called CM. We haven't got one. Kone can play there or Fortounis. Mantalos I think should play there also. Thing is its not that we don't have players for these positions, it's who is reliable and deserves to play. Kourbelis to me is very average. Taxi too slow and Tziolis even slower. Androutsos might not be ready yet. He should be in a squad role though. Mantalos has all the tools to be an 8 in my opinion

Call it CM CDM whatever you like. in Skibbe's 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 to be more exact he uses 2 midfielders who are defensively orientated. Zeka Samaris Tziolis. I don't think we have anyone else and that is exactly my point. 

Sure Mantalos Fortounis can go CM but they are not CM they are needed up front to help offence with a key pass.

Galanopoulos is an 8 a box to box. Samaris was a box to box as well at the beginning of his career.

Tziolis was a box to box as well until he moved to Paok. 

Siopis is no box to box either. 

Papadopoulos is terrible with the ball on his feet.

Charisis is not box to box.

Kourbelis is not box to box.

Kone was a 10 and has became box to box but where is he now. He has played less than 20 games in his last 2 career years.

My point is that no matter who you guys choose on his place. The difference is gonna be minimum.

 

I would prefer to have a 5 2-3 with fully offensive wingers/AMF than use defensive midfielders hoping that transition somehow comes by itself.

 

 

 

By the

 

 

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I disagree 5-1-3-1 is not as defensive as you think in fact it probably is not defensive at all since it implies all 4 forward players don't bother to defend.

In fact one defensive midfielder for the whole area means that our main power aka defense will be left open many times and apart from that it gives big space for shots from away.

4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1 is what Skibbe plays and it compliments us best with Forotunis and Mitroglou finding each other on far too many occasions. I wanna see how Gianniotas ends since being wanted from 2 La Liga sides could mean increased playtime. If he turns out to be good he s definately gonna be an upgrade from Mantalos.

Karnezis/Gianniotis/Paschalakis

Toro - Manolas - Sokratis - Stafylidis/Lykogiannis(depends on if we wand a defender or an offensive player)

Samaris - ???
Gianniotas - Fortou/Pelkas -  Donis/Pelkas

Mitroglou/Donis

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The Samaris situation is an interesting one. Did we ever think he was good offensively? I know he scored in the world cup 4 years ago but he hasn't done anything since then. I actually really like Samaris as a player and person. I think he is good but all he seems to be doing is play simple short passes most of the time and never gets into space. Is that the coaches doing? Because I think he will give us more If he is not holding all the time. Give that role to Zeca and let Samaris move into space to create another option. 

I do agree that all players need to defend and that Skibbe has to do a better job with what he has got instead of repeating the same thing. Let's not forget the Fetfatzidis is an option as well. We actually wingers now that can play there. Pelkas, Lazaros, Donis, Fetfatzidis and Gianniotas. Skibbe should choose 2 of those players for the wide options in a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1. I'm all in to play a 5-2-3. But I'm not sure if we have the players to bear that role. Even if the two wide players are more attacking they still have to defend. 

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13 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

I disagree 5-1-3-1 is not as defensive as you think in fact it probably is not defensive at all since it implies all 4 forward players don't bother to defend.

In fact one defensive midfielder for the whole area means that our main power aka defense will be left open many times and apart from that it gives big space for shots from away.

4-4-1-1/4-2-3-1 is what Skibbe plays and it compliments us best with Forotunis and Mitroglou finding each other on far too many occasions. I wanna see how Gianniotas ends since being wanted from 2 La Liga sides could mean increased playtime. If he turns out to be good he s definately gonna be an upgrade from Mantalos.

Karnezis/Gianniotis/Paschalakis

Toro - Manolas - Sokratis - Stafylidis/Lykogiannis(depends on if we wand a defender or an offensive player)

Samaris - ???
Gianniotas - Fortou/Pelkas -  Donis/Pelkas

Mitroglou/Donis

Rocko, what have you done with my old sparring partner Akritis re?

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Galanopoulos, Zeca, Sokratis, Torosodis, Siopis, Jedinak,  Petsos all better than Tziolis for Hellas.

When Tziol breaks the record for most caps for a Pirate ever, I will have to explain that to the friends in the shower next time.  

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this might be good fortounis deeper or tachtsidis we need more fire power to break down these teams that are gunna park the bus because you win games by scoring and we need balance.

        mitroglou

donis mantalos lazaros

        fortounis zeca

staf sokratis manolas bakakis

             karnezis

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On 7/19/2018 at 12:37 PM, AchillesHeel said:

At this level all players are expected to defend, even Mitroglou, otherwise we're not going anywhere.

Ideally when a WB moves up on the offensive the DM slots back to cover for him....and when defending and all 5 defenders are back, one of the CBs moves up and acts as 2nd DM....rather than wasting  spot on Tziolis or Samaris you get to insert a talented CB instead (which we have plenty of) and it plays out the same in the back.

Sorry but " Fortounis and Mitroglou finding each other on far too many occasions " ? Did I miss something? I don't recall much of anyone finding Mitroglou on a consistent basis.

Truth is I wish we had the DM to take on the role of general next to Zeca's engine but we don't....still Skibbe continues to think that Tziolis is just that.

too bad ninis has been irrelevant past 4+ years. strikers love him when he was in his prime. he had great chem with mitroglou & cisse.

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On 7/15/2018 at 4:43 AM, Dean97 said:

Did anyone see Fetfatzidis goals in the friendly? Class player. Also Manos is one to look out for and Androutsos looks the stuff hopefully he gets more game time this season. 

Don't get your hopes high on Manos. He has the talent but hes going nowhere.

I live in Heraklion and I don't remember seeing him anytime out partying or eating with his friends (mostly pizza) without a cigarette on his hands. He keeps up like that and there he goes as a loanie at Levadiakos for a career high.

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On 7/20/2018 at 1:43 AM, Dean97 said:

The Samaris situation is an interesting one. Did we ever think he was good offensively? I know he scored in the world cup 4 years ago but he hasn't done anything since then. I actually really like Samaris as a player and person. I think he is good but all he seems to be doing is play simple short passes most of the time and never gets into space. Is that the coaches doing? Because I think he will give us more If he is not holding all the time. Give that role to Zeca and let Samaris move into space to create another option. 

I do agree that all players need to defend and that Skibbe has to do a better job with what he has got instead of repeating the same thing. Let's not forget the Fetfatzidis is an option as well. We actually wingers now that can play there. Pelkas, Lazaros, Donis, Fetfatzidis and Gianniotas. Skibbe should choose 2 of those players for the wide options in a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1. I'm all in to play a 5-2-3. But I'm not sure if we have the players to bear that role. Even if the two wide players are more attacking they still have to defend. 

Noone said he is good offensively but boy can pass and keep ball. Apart from Zeka all our midfielders are good enough at slowing the game's pace, which was Santos and Rehaggel strategies for over 10 years, and guess what, they worked. It even worked pretty well vs Belgium twice and Bosnia as well.

The problem ain't lying on the players amigo. The problem is lying to the other teams that have stepped up their game. There is no chance  the 4 year ago Northern Ireland ,  Sweden ,  Iceland would even make it to the play offs or even to the WC.

They re gonna decline at some point same as us I suppose. I just hope we take that opportunity and step up.

Missing the Euro is no excuse though.

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lazaros fortounis and fetfa all being at oly might do wonder for their chem if they find form and become starters

too bad tachtsi is likely on his way out. then we also got zeca and donis and hopefully samaris can get his form back

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12 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

Noone said he is good offensively but boy can pass and keep ball. Apart from Zeka all our midfielders are good enough at slowing the game's pace, which was Santos and Rehaggel strategies for over 10 years, and guess what, they worked. It even worked pretty well vs Belgium twice and Bosnia as well.

The problem ain't lying on the players amigo. The problem is lying to the other teams that have stepped up their game. There is no chance  the 4 year ago Northern Ireland ,  Sweden ,  Iceland would even make it to the play offs or even to the WC.

They re gonna decline at some point same as us I suppose. I just hope we take that opportunity and step up.

Missing the Euro is no excuse though.

The thing is we expect 1 player to start the attack in Fortounis and he is then overloaded by defenders and then we lose possesion. Samaris is good at keeping the ball and playing a short pass but we need more from our two midfielders. Zeca is better without the ball then with it. He runs, tackles, blocks, jumps and runs some more. He is a very average passer and not so good dribbler. He has heart though and will keep trying. Samaris dosent like to play a threaded through ball but Tachtsidis does. So does Mantalos. We need more organisation in attack if we want to score goals. We always play to a draw and somehow lose by a goal or win by a goal. We need to have more ambition going forward and players moving more. I cant remember the last time Greece won 2-0 or 3-0. I know people are going to tell me "ah we are not an attacking team" Have a look at the game against Hungary in 2015 we had a lot of opportunities to score and we won 4-3. Tachtsidis, Fortounis, Mantalos and Pelkas were in that team. So was Samaris. We played some younger untried players like Kitsiou and Tzanetopoulos. Kone and Mitroglou were and so were Holebas and Sokratis. The players i mentioned 7 of them play currently in the team. We can attack if we want but who knows if the players are allowed to. 

A team like this wouldnt hurt:

           Karnezis

       Manolas Sokratis Retsos

Bakakis Samaris Androutsos/Zeca Stafylidis

           Donis   Mitroglou   Lazaros

 

Subs:

Tachtsidis/Samaris

Fetfatzidis/Lazaros

Lykogiannis/Stafylidis

 

Pelkas, Fortounis and Mantalos play best as a number 10. I dont know if any of them are good enough to play that role and carry the team like Modric would do or Kaka back in the day. I think if Ninis had a better career he would play as the sole creator. Fortounis dosent run enough and is weak. Mantalos is faster and stronger than Fortounis but is not consisent enough to be trusted and Pelkas is still young but can definately surpass Mantalos and Fortounis sooner rather than later. So Androutsos or Zeca can play alongside Samaris. Depending on the opponent. Its more defensive this formation but when we have the ball we have options going forward from the flanks and 2 players supporting/wing role behind Mitroglou. Which means there is some always to pass to and move away from. Fetfatzidis can be a good impact sub. Donis and Lazaros would have to do the most running to give support,while Stafylidis and Bakakis have to be wide as possible for an option. We need runners in midfield also so Zeca or Androutsos are capable to run, carry the ball and be involved in the play. 

 

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9 hours ago, Dean97 said:

The thing is we expect 1 player to start the attack in Fortounis and he is then overloaded by defenders and then we lose possesion. Samaris is good at keeping the ball and playing a short pass but we need more from our two midfielders. Zeca is better without the ball then with it. He runs, tackles, blocks, jumps and runs some more. He is a very average passer and not so good dribbler. He has heart though and will keep trying. Samaris dosent like to play a threaded through ball but Tachtsidis does. So does Mantalos. We need more organisation in attack if we want to score goals. We always play to a draw and somehow lose by a goal or win by a goal. We need to have more ambition going forward and players moving more. I cant remember the last time Greece won 2-0 or 3-0. I know people are going to tell me "ah we are not an attacking team" Have a look at the game against Hungary in 2015 we had a lot of opportunities to score and we won 4-3. Tachtsidis, Fortounis, Mantalos and Pelkas were in that team. So was Samaris. We played some younger untried players like Kitsiou and Tzanetopoulos. Kone and Mitroglou were and so were Holebas and Sokratis. The players i mentioned 7 of them play currently in the team. We can attack if we want but who knows if the players are allowed to. 

A team like this wouldnt hurt:

           Karnezis

       Manolas Sokratis Retsos

Bakakis Samaris Androutsos/Zeca Stafylidis

           Donis   Mitroglou   Lazaros

 

Subs:

Tachtsidis/Samaris

Fetfatzidis/Lazaros

Lykogiannis/Stafylidis

 

Pelkas, Fortounis and Mantalos play best as a number 10. I dont know if any of them are good enough to play that role and carry the team like Modric would do or Kaka back in the day. I think if Ninis had a better career he would play as the sole creator. Fortounis dosent run enough and is weak. Mantalos is faster and stronger than Fortounis but is not consisent enough to be trusted and Pelkas is still young but can definately surpass Mantalos and Fortounis sooner rather than later. So Androutsos or Zeca can play alongside Samaris. Depending on the opponent. Its more defensive this formation but when we have the ball we have options going forward from the flanks and 2 players supporting/wing role behind Mitroglou. Which means there is some always to pass to and move away from. Fetfatzidis can be a good impact sub. Donis and Lazaros would have to do the most running to give support,while Stafylidis and Bakakis have to be wide as possible for an option. We need runners in midfield also so Zeca or Androutsos are capable to run, carry the ball and be involved in the play. 

 

Dean I do agree with you that we need more of an attack no question, I have heard a lot of guys referring to that one game against Hungry which didn't mean anything for us as we were eliminated by then which takes pressure of the players, if that game meant something I don't think you would have seen 4 goals by Greece as they would have played more conservative.. The other issue is yes we scored 4 goals but we allowed 3 which is pretty bad.. Don't you guys notice by now when Greece push forward and attack we leave our back end vulnerable and we always get scored on.. As much as I'd love to see Greece play strong and attack we need to find a middle grown. We can't play the two extremes of going all out attack because we get scored on easily and we can't play all back deference because we can never produce a goal and only get 1 to 2 chances a game..  We need to somehow find a balance of defence and offence.. This World Cup showed us that parking the bus does not work and a good offence will break yuo down, also an all out attack left teams vulnerable to the counter. 

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dean i disagree about androutsos. he's nowhere near starting 11 over even coming off the bench for greece

id take fortounis, mantalos pelkas, fetfa at the cam position over him anyday right now

or even donis at cf or karelis as cf over him.

fortounis is by far our best 10. even in one of his worst seasons past 4 oly years he's still argueable our best. notice how when fortounis declined in form oly struggled as well? he's the creative engine of the team that's why and by far the best greek team besides AEK of the past decade and PAO in 2010

even when pelkas and fortounis played same time fortounis had the most dangerous chances and although pelkas seems hungrier and more aggressive his first touches were amateur

Edited by georgelaz
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I understand Androutsos might not be be starting material yet but I never said for him to play the 10 role. He is an 8 through and through. We are so limited there it's not funny. We have plenty of CDMs and CAMs. I believe Androutsos is somewhere in between. I hope he can somehow produce assists and score goals because he I the future of this team. 

I also agree about Fortounis being our best 10. But I wouldn't count out Mantalos yet and I also believe Pelkas will be better than both. @J1078 I know that match against Hungary didn't mean much, but I've never seen us attack and play like that before. We looked very hungry and looked dangerous with Pelkas playing and Stafylidis always overlapping and creating problems for them. We do need to find a balance though. 

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from the little I saw of tachtsidis last season 4-5 games he was one of oly's best players. in derby's etc. he was playing his heart out and won his position in a decently competitive team with gillet ofoa and siopis all fighting for a starting spot

I'd put for dm's/cm's zeca, samaris, tachtsidis, kourbelis in that order before androutsos

also gala seems more important to AEK than adroutsos to a third placed oly...

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Tachtsidis is talented but his form overall is not up to standards. Plus he slow. We all know how in the modern game you need fast midfielders. Romao just got told to leave Olympiakos. He is a slow midfielder. I think he rates Bouchalakis because I expcted him to leave. He is not that fast himself. 

Kourbelis to me is very average. He is a squad player. He can slowly be integrated to the line up but Samaris and Zeca are the players to start for me. Tachtsidis played well in the early season of 2017/18 season and then December hit and was playing like a different person. We need our best players in form. 

Galanopoulos has a place in the team no doubt. I saw 2 minutes of him against Saudi and looked like a midfielder we've been looking for the past 5 years. Just from his positioning and body language he looked miles ahead of Tziolis and Tachtsidis. 

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@Dean97 you're right I haven't seen the NT look as good offensively as they did in that game, With Skibbe as our bench boss we will not see that kind of offence again he is much more of a defensive coach that doesn't like his team taking chances which hinders our offence completely.. he plays guys so far back that when they get the ball there are way to many opposing players on him and he can't do much.. I think we need to utilize our wingers out wide more to creat space for our players... they can't  be afraid to give up a goal as that hinders our attack so much.. Ever time I see the NT they like tight and stagnate... That's why we need to add players that have speed in our line up.. I'm hoping Donis really becomes a difference maker for us as the kid has wheels and can take on defenders, as does Fetfa, If Kone can get his game back I would love to see him on the team, I had such hopes for that guy after our last World Cup.. Fetfa,Pelkas,Mitro,Donis,fortunes,Fetfa mantolas and Laz all need to have significant roles for NT to be successful.. if Samaris can finally play regularly than maybe he becomes our instant starter at mid but for now I don't know who our mids should be..At the end of the day if Skibbe is any kind of coach then he play a system that takes pressure of our weakest positions that is mid but I don't have that much faith in him..Play 3 in the back instead of 4 and move up a guy...

Edited by J1078
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I agree @J1078 wingers need to be wide so out midfielders can have space to run into. Then in defence they close in. Santos and Rehaggel were also defensive minded and we saw more success with them than Skibbe obviously. I wouldnt mind going 3 at the back it's just that who ever is wingback needs to have the motor of running the sideline continuously. I don't think we have someone like that. I had high hopes about Kone too. After that world cup the team went downhill quick. I had high hopes for Samaris too and instead the whole team dissapointed. All I know is Donis can become a threat for us. He must be in the starting line up. We just need balance like you said, but deep down I want us to have the balls to go forward and have more players go forward and create scoring chances.

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Sooo turns out I was right after all. There is not a single midfielder named here who is any serious update to Tziolis. Zeka and Samaris are our best players in the midfield and they re nothing serious.

Tziolis probably used to slow the pace of the game.

You guys can keep trying as much as you want you ll find noone actually worthy to dethrone Tziolis.

That Androutsos pick was also pretty funny. Where sis that guy now? Is he still a pro?

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