Summer 2009 transfers

[drakos13]

well after watching football this week......

its starting to be incredibly difficult to comprehend - how exactly is PAO signings so BAD??? Why cant scout real talent?

After watching Porto and Hamburg, many people here like to think PAO is somehow bigger club than these two clubs, or even that the Portuguese League isnt as good as Greek (which is similarly utter nonsense) - but I cant say in terms of European status PAO arent TOO far off from these clubs (in terms of european presence) yet we are years and years behind in quality. Porto and Hamburg were fantastic teams BTW. Porto obviously a much bigger team than PAO, but damn they made a great squad thats fast, coordinated, and absolutley deadly.

How is it Porto goes and finds Hulk in Japanese league....we go and buy Souza? Some of the players on Porto and Hamburg I noticed are not great big names but there TALENTED as hell. We go after players in Latin America and they can bareley hit average quality.

I mean where does PAO find a Lucho, Guerrero, Hulk, Sicinho, Trochowski etc....?????

What is it about our "unlimited" budget that cant buy a godamn thing?

Same goes for AEK and OSFP......who similarly do not really buy any big prospective talent, Diogo and Simao aside are really the only talent in bought into the league with big potential....

Id rather spend these "millions" on DECENT SCOUTS or building a scout network. SCREW the signings. Lets maybe focus on getting smarter people, expanding our scout network. Then the signings themselves will not be as expensive anyways looking for second-hand star players, and the odd domestic talent which is rare.

[cyberfish]

Drako, I've been reading for years that Panathinaikos is tyring to copy Porto because they have thought of the exact things you point out. Similar size countries, similar teams, and (I think) similar budgets. How does Porto do it and why can't Panathinaikos do the same? One issue I think is the really crappy quality of Greek football in terms of infrastructure and organization. But the biggest reason must be that Panathinaikos' board can't organize in professional levels at any front. Read all the squabbling of the shareholders and tell me how a club can be healthy. Another reason must be that we don't have "unlimited" budget like they claim. If we did, we would have landed Pellerano or Givet and a better striker than Sousa. They simply lie to sell season tickets.

I should say that hope is what keeps us all going so the fact that they have not been able to do it does not meant that they can't do it now. There is a decent financial foundation and several key people that could bring the team to new heights. I think we also have a good foundation in terms of players and coaches. But we do need to be able to find the right players now to fill key positions. I hope we don't fail again this summer.

[drakos13]

similar, but lets be honest....Porto are a bigger team in a bigger league too. They have that great stadium, and are in CL every year even won a triple crown and a CL....

Im sure the management at PAO are idiots. But Im saying - theres got to be something more to signing good players than "picking them and being able to pay"

being able to find and acess is major. I want our scouts to be able to find Hulks, Lucho's Sicinhos...

I got no problem with Jakub, but lets be honest..theres way better we could be finding and going after. And they dont have to be second hand stars either.

I just hope our idiot mangament does not go for high risk signings this season. I can see us signing a latin "sensation" again, or being "sold" on some nobody player that remains a nobody with PAO.

The thing is, we COULD afford better than Souza and a CB. We just had nobody to FIND these players. I say spend 15 million on something to land and find these players. I mean how is it were right next to Serbia, and the only good prospect brought out of Serbia to Greece has been Djordjevic. and that was over a decade ago. Meanwhile Heerenveen sweeps up teenagers like Sulejmani, theres Ivanovic snapped up by Chelsea etc.... Look at the German league their teams have their scouts wrapped all over the Polish league and virtually all polish players make their name there. Why cant we do this to Serbia again? We do for basketball afterall.

Sending Rocha and Velic to south america is a total joke of a scouting network. Id rather we sign scouts, people, create a network that will find great players as they emerge. THAT is an investment. Not spend 5 milion on Nacho Queso of Santos who had a great season in 2007 being 2nd in the league of Brazil in scoring, or Paraguayan league "top prospect" etc crap. These players that we do buy are a dime a dozen. We should be competing with Hamburg, Shaxtar, Ajax and Porto EPL etc for great pickups..

Instead Greece and Turkey play the populist crap way of doing things. Buy "names" , second hand stars, foreign=good strategy, undermine existing talents, and try to sell season tickets - its got limited success. Fenerbahce is spending millions and millions to go absolutley nowhere. If we were INTELLIGENT, went with a long run approach to snatch up top talent around south america /east europe wed be wa

[cyberfish]

I agree with everything Drako. We spent 3.5m on Sousa (plus his contract) and we could have done much better with the money. If we start adding the Melissis fees and a couple of others we could be staring at a very good player instead of three or four just-decent ones. Also, I like what you said about the scouts. The key is not just to send Warzycha and Rotsa to watch a few games but to allow them to create a network in their perspective countries.

But it takes some money and I am afraid Panathinaikos has made a name as a stingy buyer. I also suspect managers of very talented players flock to Porto in a way they don't flock to PAO. From there it's a matter of picking the right players, something PAO only now has in place. I trust Rotsa, Gmoch, and Warzycha to make an evaluation than Pateras or Vgenopoulos. Putting a scouting team in place is a good first step. Lets see if it pays off.

I trully think we have a good core of good players who were able to overachieve in Europe. With the right additions I would like to see us set a goal for the final stages of UEFA cup in the next few years (from the CL groups). The level of football at the CL final stages scares me and I don't think any Greek team can reach it any time soon.

[LechFan]

I think Robert Lewandowski would be a good fit for Panathinaikos. Iread a polish article saying that Panathinaikos could even go as high as 7 million euro. If any of you can read polish here it is.

http://www.sport.pl/pilka/1,70993,6485579,...ndowskiego.html

[drakos13]

I agree with everything Drako. We spent 3.5m on Sousa (plus his contract) and we could have done much better with the money. If we start adding the Melissis fees and a couple of others we could be staring at a very good player instead of three or four just-decent ones. Also, I like what you said about the scouts. The key is not just to send Warzycha and Rotsa to watch a few games but to allow them to create a network in their perspective countries.

But it takes some money and I am afraid Panathinaikos has made a name as a stingy buyer. I also suspect managers of very talented players flock to Porto in a way they don't flock to PAO. From there it's a matter of picking the right players, something PAO only now has in place. I trust Rotsa, Gmoch, and Warzycha to make an evaluation than Pateras or Vgenopoulos. Putting a scouting team in place is a good first step. Lets see if it pays off.

I trully think we have a good core of good players who were able to overachieve in Europe. With the right additions I would like to see us set a goal for the final stages of UEFA cup in the next few years (from the CL groups). The level of football at the CL final stages scares me and I don't think any Greek team can reach it any time soon.

a network takes more than one person's summer vacation with a notebook Im afraid. We need people positioned there.

I know its absolutley wrong to question a former great player or coach - but what makes people think theyll be good SCOUTS? Is scouting really only about being able to judge if a player is good? Im beginign to think thats only part of the job. Warzycha and Rocha should be coaching young players. Not setting up networks, being club representatives and trying to do the "social" aspect. And judging after what Rocha was suggesting us (Velic too) hes a pretty bad scout.

Souza, was a fail before he even put on the jersey. He REEKED of a bad signign. Im convinced that nobody really did anything but watch his highlight tapes (in which case everybody is a great player if you watch a highlight tape)

Yes its an extra job. Its got costs. But its an I N V E S T M E N T. Nikos Pateras is going to the same stupid thing, I have a horrible feeling.

ERXETAI FERRARI or - recently named car of the year the VOLKSWAGEN GOLF! Right. If I hear erxetai ferrari from that douche or the stupid media one more time, i will burn their house down. Unless they mean Mateo Ferrari, which would be a good signing.

Think about it because its absolutley ridiculous how poor Greek teams are at finding rare talent. Serbia is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Greece, a poor country with a weak league.

Yet how many star players have come out of Serbia? Howcome Greek scouts dont notice these players before? I mean weve got plenty of Serbians in Greece, plenty of Serbian football personel bilingual etc - we have the resources. Yet nobody spends a damn penny on finding these gems.

Look at these names:

Ivanovic

Kezman

Sulejmani

Vidic

Dragutinovic

Zigic

Pantelic

Lazovic

all of them made it to big clubs (plenty more than that)

yet none of them played in Greece. If you go and look at the German league, their teams have their hands all over central/east europe . In weaker leagues Polish and Czech players are snapped up majority by Bundesliga and German sides. Whatever stars countries like Slovakia and Hungary do have, theyll very likley begin their play in bigger leagues, in Germany.

Greek clubs? Try to bring in Brazilian cheapies. We do get some African players too, but how is it country like Serbia can be next door we cant snatch practically anybody? Or dont rather.

[XXX-18T]

http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/172368

This is a page full of food for thought :)

Ten Cate trying to lure Pizzaro to Pao. Pizzaro is on loan to Bremen from Chelsea.

Antoniou watched Lewandowski in Poland after visiting England/Germany/Italy. I will fall off my chair if we complete our transfers early this year.

Also, Antoniou is negotiating the sale of Vintra and Mantzios

WTF: sell Vintra after years of crappy performances he finally comes good and they want to sell him?

We have sold Nilsson and if Vintra goes we will be left with Sarriegi!

WTF?

[drakos13]

selling mantzios????

idiotic idea.

we wont get money for what hes worth to PAO.

if he goes for 2-3 millon, we get 2 millions (WOOOOW) and we lose an estabished talented upcoming striker who is great in europe and playing lone forward.

And we get 2-3 million, which is basically worthless because its not enough to buy anybody decent that well find and be established in the team quickly.

LOSE LOSE SITUATION.

ADONIOU IS A LOSER DROP HIM FIRST BEFORE ANY SIGNIGNS.

And seriously, how ironic is it, that once Vyntra FINALLY after YEARS shows some value to the team (remember he was a catastrophe earlier) NOW he gets sold.

Sariegui needs to be the next to go in the defense. Definitly a crap player no DOUBT about it.

[pao123]

are there gunna be any greeks left on our squad??

[athinaios]

How does a player identify with the club he's hired to play for? Just wonderin....

It seems more and more it's just a job and nothing more. Get as much $ as you can and always look to get out of Greece.... Or, go to Greece to retire...

I, too, think that Greek players should be plentiful on a Greek squad, but this crappy league can't develop many great players....

You guys in Greece, those who are over 30-35, have you seen a change in young boys thirst to play football?.... I'm afraid that not as many young Greeks see football as something they want to play... And, Greece is a small country...

I don't know, the :angry: "paragontes" may have injured the sport beyond repair...

[cyberfish]

I have to say that it is very entertaining reading all the imaginary and real transfer targets. Against my best judgment I find myself dreaming about our team with a player like Pavlyuchenko or Cisse up front. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Nonetheless, the websites have been going to town with names. I read about 10 sprots sites thsi morning and here are the latest names:

Cribari, Maniatis, Angeleri, Makos, Padoin, Giovani Dos Santos, Estoyanoff, Iaquinta, Floccari, Pavlyuchenko, Cisse, Pizarro, Lewandowski

I know Pavlyuchenko, Cisse, and Pizarro would be instant upgrades, and I don't mind Maniatis as the second RM. I've read good things about Dos Santos, but I don't care for Estoyanoff much.

Makos would be a fourth choice at DM, maybe not a bad idea, but I think we need someone better since Gilberto will be pushing 33 and Mattos has shown to be injury prone. All our DMs will see action next season since we always field two. Maybe negotiate AEK's fee down to 1-2m and try to bring Katsouranis instead of the 5 his contract stipulates. Another 2-3 to his team and it would be a fair trade.

I don't know Padoin, Cribari, Ageleri, and Floccari does not register in my memory either.

I have mixed feelings about Lewandowski. He is only 20 and it would be another "let's see if this works out" move. Scoring in Poland is one thing, playing CF for Panathinaikos is another. But I have to admit, I've only watched him on youtube and a Polish friend at my blog says he is really good, so I would not be upset if we signed him.

I can't wait for the actual announcement and I hope we don't all scramble to find out "who the heck is this, and where did they unearth him" when we hear the names.

[cyberfish]

duplicate post - delete

[Clover22]

How does a player identify with the club he's hired to play for? Just wonderin....

It seems more and more it's just a job and nothing more. Get as much $ as you can and always look to get out of Greece.... Or, go to Greece to retire...

I, too, think that Greek players should be plentiful on a Greek squad, but this crappy league can't develop many great players....

You guys in Greece, those who are over 30-35, have you seen a change in young boys thirst to play football?.... I'm afraid that not as many young Greeks see football as something they want to play... And, Greece is a small country...

I don't know, the :angry: "paragontes" may have injured the sport beyond repair...

A rather depressing post! I really hope things will shift for the better, but a lot of it will have to come from the fans. Wouldn't 2004 be enough inspiration for young kids in Greece to start playing? I would think so!

[Clover22]

If Antoniou is negotiating to sell Mantzios, IF this is true, he will find my foot up his ass.

[pao123]

im sorry for saying this but seeing manztios go would not make THAT upset...he is a talented player with some potential left BUT his goalscoring record is not great...rukavina has scored one more goal then manztio this year with tons less starts...petro who also has played far less has scored only one less than manztios...both players are younger than manztios and appear to be more useful...if manztios goes and we signed a great goaltzi in his place then i dont have any problem...i wudnt trade ruka or petro before manztio...

alright, he did wonders or us in the CL but his consistancy is a big fat zero..we need a CF who will score 15-20 goals a season no problem and im sorry to say, manztio is just not capable of doing so...i would value him anywhere between 2-3 million and not much more..

the truth is i always liked the kid alot of hoped every year he would have a break out season and just destroy the back of the net but in the 4 seasons hes been with us, it has not been done...he seems to accept his mediocrity and doesnt realy work that hard to become a star player that he could have been...his skill is fantstic but his work rate is horrendous...its a shame but i think its time for him to move on...

[cyberfish]

http://www.goal.com/en/news/585/argentina/...er-for-angeleri

The article says that Panathinaikos is ready to make an offer to Angeleri. "... the Prasinoi may be the most likely destination for the player, because his intention is to move to a European club as soon as possible." What's the big hurry? :rolleyes:

Also: http://www.exedrasports.gr/default.asp?pid...=22551&catid=24

Vgenopoulos is preparing the ground for a Koutsianikoulis move to PAO with a sponsorship deal to Ergotelis.

Also, more Sicce talk: http://www.gazzetta.gr/content/view/30818/2/

on the same article note in the bottom the mention of Pogrebnyak not wanting to play in Greece and Salke's interest for Cleyton.

[athinaios]

Some of the most important signings, hirings, or transfers are NOT players. ;)

The right people in the right positions within an organization makes a huge difference.

Establishing the proper internal culture is also very important.

As for Mantzios, I think he's no better than Rukavina or Petro, so I wouldn't be terribly upset if he found another good team to play for.

Unlike other teams, PAO doesn't have to worry about money, so selling players should only be if we get better ones.

[NYPAO13]

Unlike other teams, PAO doesn't have to worry about money, so selling players should only be if we get better ones.

very true, the only problem is that we havent been capable to replace the players we sell, or not resign.Sometimes we even throw money to washed up players. Hopefully we can correct this.

[pao123]

i want to talk about the rumors but there have been too many..its only april and everyday i read at least 2 different names...

[drakos13]

yeah i think after last 2 transfer season....I lost much faith in our management but also the media.....so, rumours are pointless. What matters is who signs, not who nearly signs, or changes their mind etc.

I just hope we dont do stupid things like drop established players. Its just going to pull the team back.

IMO the only replaceable players are:

Rukavina (at least on loan, does not have a place in the squad next year)

Sareigui (must go)

Nilsson (must go)

Tziolis

Salpiggidis

Clayton

Melissis (Morris takes his place as backup?)

The rest we need to keep as a core.

As for this "shrink the team" crap. Well, Ive been against it. Keeping the team small doesnt do anything. We get injuries, and they pile up. Yesterday Mantzios, Karagkounis, Gabriel were badly missed out there.

[Clover22]

I don't quite understand how anyone can have the opinion that Petro is just as good as Mantzios when its clear he's still in the developing stages! Mantzios is one of our key players and must stay.

[cyberfish]

The Erasport PAO reporter (I forget his name) said that he does not want to name names but Panathinaikos is targeting a young Greek defender. Hmmm, Maniatis is 22 and probably worth a shot, but what other defenders from Greece could PAO be interested in buying?

He also said he knows that our first transfer at the end of May will be from S. America. He didn't say country. Aaaa the suspense is killing me. what the heck reports are these? Then erasprot (and other papers I believe) reported that Rotsa flew to Brazil to watch Nilmar. Not sure why we would send Rotsa to watch Nilmar. I thought everyone knows who Nilmar is, but I am probably wrong. Truth is, I had no idea who the heck he is until his name became a regular fixture in PAO's transfer rumors last year. Maybe Rotsa went to start the negotiations.

The reporter guy on erasprot was adamant that there is no way Sicce will come. He said his name is mentioned just to be mentioned.

[Kojak]

yeah i think after last 2 transfer season....I lost much faith in our management but also the media.....so, rumours are pointless. What matters is who signs, not who nearly signs, or changes their mind etc.

I just hope we dont do stupid things like drop established players. Its just going to pull the team back.

IMO the only replaceable players are:

Rukavina (at least on loan, does not have a place in the squad next year)

Sareigui (must go)

Nilsson (must go)

Tziolis

Salpiggidis

Clayton

Melissis (Morris takes his place as backup?)

The rest we need to keep as a core.

As for this "shrink the team" crap. Well, Ive been against it. Keeping the team small doesnt do anything. We get injuries, and they pile up. Yesterday Mantzios, Karagkounis, Gabriel were badly missed out there.

I was reading your post, nodding my head in agreement, and then that all went out the window...with salpi placed in your list of replaceable players.

Salpi is irreplacable for panathinaikos standards.

In greek competitions i am not a fan of loaing out players for the development of players, unless of course you are giving out youngster (16-18) to get Superleague exposure. The simple fact is the remainder of the teams in greece are pathetic. Our players need to be part of teams who have the same pressure as us, there is no use scoring 20 goals on loan to aigaleo and then expecting to come back to pao, and killing it equally.

Loaning Rukavina out will not help his development. He is the second leading scorer of the club, and deserves another opportunity in the new season, at least off the bench.

The team isnt that bad as an entirety. We are simply missing personality (except karagounis) you need to have some kunts/bastards on the park who dont let up, dont relax, to finish teams off. None of our players show any attitude on the park. Only then can u add you fancy players like cleyton to entertain.

I prefer to sell a player and move on, than loan them out to a greek club. Take dimoutsos, was brilliant 80% of the time in the games he played with us, in fact i recall him winning some games for us. Id rather 10 games with us as a 20 yr old than a full season at OFI, cause lets face it the kid has talent, but hes gone from pao now.

Also we can forget Morris... he was irreplacable at recreativo, he will be staying in spain. We pushed him away, if i was him even on return from loan, i wouldnt fly back to greece. His agent will find him a new spanish club, he is rated in spain, simple as that.

[NYPAO13]

You know what would be nice for a change. Is signing the players on top of our list.

[drakos13]

I swear Ive written a response twice now Kojak but its gone?

to sum them up:

Salpiggidis you are maybe right. I think hes only replaceable if we get a big #9 forward type, but still it would be better to keep him around. I think that his presence can be replaced in the starting lineup for sure, and he cannot play lone striker this is main issue.

Dimoutsos is on loan with OFI no? He can come back?

Rukavina: Hugely overrated. Decent pace and dribble, not intelligent, average finisher really. Waste of foreign spot/backup spot.

Hes most definitly not the 2nd scorer in the club or so much of a standout as that would sound Hes in a 4 way tie for 3rd alongside Karagkounis, Clayton, and Petropoulos.

His performances have been nothing special, his goals have been against weak teams who were pretty much already defeated on the pitch that day.

If we need a supersub we should have stuck with Ndoye who was far far far far better faster stronger loyal versatile and can be relied on, defintly impressed a lot more than Rukavina to the point where PAO badly missed him when we went on our crap streak and blew the title last year while he was injured. He was bailing us out before that....Curse this stupid managment for replacing a valuable player with some fancy "prospect" because he wasnt enough of a name. Ndoye kicked ass, and made the team much better and gave us more flexibility. Keep him you idiots!

Strikers like Rukavina are a dime a dozen! I can see him leaving in 2 years, as a failure. Drop him now and save us the wasted time or send him on loan and open up the team to some new talent and then decide.